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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

Anyway, some things I noticed in this chapter that nobody talked about.
Armin complaining about his body not moving and everyone dying due to his inaction was a direct callback to Trost - it's like poetry, it rhymes, etc.
Annie is most definitely grossed out/afraid of bugs. She curb stomped that mantis into nothing back in Marley. A flashback showed the other scouts teasing her by holding up some kind of insect. And her reaction to Gabi's description of the "centipede" was "Gross."

Something I've seen talked about is how Armin's pretty much always been failing, freezing up, and generally ... until the end of the arc, at which point he makes and executes a brutal plan that gets things done.

We're currently in the "Armin goes hardcore self-loathing" phase. Which means we're about to see Armin show why he was the right choice for Survey Corps commander.

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Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



In It For The Tank posted:

This is why I'm getting anxious about the story's resolution. I genuinely can't tell anymore if Ymir and Eren are holding back for inscrutable reasons, which doesn't appear to be the case given how earnestly the titans are attacking, or if it's just plot armor fuckery to drag out the fighting until the Alliance can pull an impossible victory out of their asses. The dreaded Lelouch ending (whether it is intentional or inadvertent, with Eren actually trying to Rumble everything and still losing) looms over the story like a sword of Damocles. I'm equally concerned about Armin Talk No Jutsuing either Eren or Ymir and somehow securing peace with the rest of the world despite the Rumbling (even a partial one) being the complete validation of the world's hatred of Eldians.

I think Eren may be holding back for a similar reason why Annie did during the Female Titan arc. His entire reason for the Rumbling was keeping his friends safe. He can't bring himself to slaughter them all, not to mention it would make him kill most of humanity for nothing. He tries to overwhelm them and break their spirit with shock and awe, hoping to make them flee or at least stall them until his job is done.

It seems that the best solution in this case would be to take away the others' ability to turn into titans, but the last few panels suggest he can't. Titans were always built by the only inhabitant of the Paths, Ymir. Now it seems Zeke sits there and he's clearly building something I wonder what this might be?

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy


Today's episode of the anime was really well done. I know what's going to happen and still was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

serious gaylord
Sep 16, 2007

what.


Gantolandon posted:

I think Eren may be holding back for a similar reason why Annie did during the Female Titan arc. His entire reason for the Rumbling was keeping his friends safe. He can't bring himself to slaughter them all, not to mention it would make him kill most of humanity for nothing. He tries to overwhelm them and break their spirit with shock and awe, hoping to make them flee or at least stall them until his job is done.

It seems that the best solution in this case would be to take away the others' ability to turn into titans, but the last few panels suggest he can't. Titans were always built by the only inhabitant of the Paths, Ymir. Now it seems Zeke sits there and he's clearly building something I wonder what this might be?

A mech for Levi.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


serious gaylord posted:

A mech for Levi.

In It For The Tank
Feb 17, 2011

But I've yet to figure out a better way to spend my time.


Viridiant posted:

Today's episode of the anime was really well done. I know what's going to happen and still was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

I agree that the episode was very well done. I did have two minor quibbles:

1. I wish they had lingered on Eren's expressions more during Willy's speech, particularly the moment where he hears the crowd cheering for the war on Paradis and realizes that he has to proceed with the attack. I felt they cut away from it a tad too quickly.

2. I think the song 2Volt was a really strange choice for the moment Eren transforms. A lot of people suggested Vogel im Kafig or YouSeeBigGirl but I don't think that would have worked either unless they dramatically remixed it. XL-TT could have worked, considering its the Grim Reminder song, and it already was played earlier in the episode. 2Volt doesn't have the gravitas for what was happening, and the timing of the song's climax didn't quite match the scene (it kicked in while panning over Willy rather than when Eren exploded out of the basement).

Other than though, I enjoyed the episode a lot. The VAs for Eren and Reiner were oustanding.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Next week's anime should remind everyone of Eren's motivation, that a world where the state must compel a young woman into being a womb for weapons of mass destruction to protect itself is a twisted world that should not exist

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Eej posted:

Next week's anime should remind everyone of Eren's motivation, that a world where the state must compel a young woman into being a womb for weapons of mass destruction to protect itself is a twisted world that should not exist

That is a really deeply uncomfortable statement. "A bad thing is happening in a place thus everyone should die, including people in other places who have little to nothing to do with that and who have been the victim of atrocities of their own."

Sub Harrison
May 2, 2013



Gantolandon posted:

It seems that the best solution in this case would be to take away the others' ability to turn into titans, but the last few panels suggest he can't.

Eren mentioned in an earlier chapter he CAN take their powers, but he refuses to take away their freedom to choose to oppose him.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Well, a world where the state has rationally decided that an entire bloodline has to be condemned into being broodmares for the military as a back up plan to enforce peace with the rest of the world is a world where similarly hosed up things can be happening everywhere under the guise of logical planning. There's no way Eren can see the fate that lies ahead for his friend so he's going to do the only thing he can to save her and her descendants from that fate, either destroy the world or end the threat of Titans for good. It's not like he's happy about it and he is clearly feeling every innocent life he takes but he also can't turn a blind eye to Historia being reduced into an incubator.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





ImpAtom posted:

That is a really deeply uncomfortable statement. "A bad thing is happening in a place thus everyone should die, including people in other places who have little to nothing to do with that and who have been the victim of atrocities of their own."

Well, there's a reason Eren is the antagonist in the last arc.

Eren is going to end the cycle of the titans that haunted his whole life, even if the cost is the death of billions of innocents. Meanwhile, Armin and company are fighting to save those people, even if it means they have no clear idea how to end the cycle Eren opposes without dooming Paradis.

Every option right now is some combination of unacceptable and longshot gamble, and there's no easy right answer. Eren's just going for the most reliable... and the most horrific.

(Also, there's the personal here. It's pretty likely that it's not just Historia and her kid as people he knows, but Historia and her newborn child as his wife and kids who would be enslaved here. When family gets involved, people get much more inclined towards extreme action.)

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Eej posted:

Well, a world where the state has rationally decided that an entire bloodline has to be condemned into being broodmares for the military as a back up plan to enforce peace with the rest of the world is a world where similarly hosed up things can be happening everywhere under the guise of logical planning. There's no way Eren can see the fate that lies ahead for his friend so he's going to do the only thing he can to save her and her descendants from that fate, either destroy the world or end the threat of Titans for good. It's not like he's happy about it and he is clearly feeling every innocent life he takes but he also can't turn a blind eye to Historia being reduced into an incubator.
Can he turn a blind eye to the millions of children he's crushing under his feet?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Jan 11, 2021

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


I mean, he literally watched as he stomped on a kid he tried to save earlier so... no?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


You can't really blame a guy for exterminating every other human on the planet to ensure the safety of his in-group, especially if he looks sad while doing it.

Viridiant
Nov 7, 2009

Big PP Energy


No Wave posted:

You can't really blame a guy for exterminating every other human on the planet to ensure the safety of his in-group, especially if he looks sad while doing it.

Hurray! Friendship!

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


If the entire planet has declared genocide, does the scapegoat race have a right to defend themselves? Or is it better for them to just accept it and die?

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


bees x1000 posted:

If the entire planet has declared genocide, does the scapegoat race have a right to defend themselves? Or is it better for them to just accept it and die?

They do and they did. The entire invading army was annihilated. Armin supported this and had no problem with invading Nazis getting killed. They are down to a single fort, which now appears to consist of a few cannons, since their airships were annihilated. The money that funded Marley is gone. The Tyburs are dead. The supreme commanders of their military are all dead. The folks living in ghettos are out. Continuing the global genocide at this point is operating under the assumption that nobody will learn anything from all of this - which is, of course, a possibility, but it's also fundamentally lacking in imagination.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


Oh yeah I agree, I am by no means saying YAY RUMBLING. I just think the story is a good one because Eren and the Alliance both have understandable motivations. And Marley. And the rest of the world.

bees x1000 fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Jan 11, 2021

Beefstew
Oct 30, 2010

I told you that story so I could tell you this one...


bees x1000 posted:

Oh yeah I agree, I am by no means saying YAY RUMBLING. I just think the story is a good one because Eren and the Alliance both have understandable motivations. And Marley. And the rest of the world.

Oh yeah, then we're in agreement. I just see a lot of people who are pro-Rumbling like it is the only possible option because Eren said so.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



Yeah I don't get the impression you're really supposed to be cheering for anything except that it's complex and well told. I think AoT is way past the point where anyone can say for certainty that any given scenario is the good choice, and I think that's to the story's credit.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Beefstew posted:

Continuing the global genocide at this point is operating under the assumption that nobody will learn anything from all of this - which is, of course, a possibility, but it's also fundamentally lacking in imagination.

Part of what makes Eren's beliefs so compelling to watch play out versus the alliance is that he was there in Marley when ambassadors from all over the world cried tears of joy at the thought of wiping out every man, woman and child on Paradis Island. Once he has seen that and seen the entire history of his people's oppression I imagine it would be almost impossible to rationally sit down and think that maybe the rest of the world is worth saving.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




bees x1000 posted:

I am by no means saying YAY RUMBLING.

I am

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Beefstew posted:

They do and they did. The entire invading army was annihilated. Armin supported this and had no problem with invading Nazis getting killed. They are down to a single fort, which now appears to consist of a few cannons, since their airships were annihilated. The money that funded Marley is gone. The Tyburs are dead. The supreme commanders of their military are all dead. The folks living in ghettos are out. Continuing the global genocide at this point is operating under the assumption that nobody will learn anything from all of this - which is, of course, a possibility, but it's also fundamentally lacking in imagination.

What does a psychic need with imagination? He knows how this story ends.

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



Sub Harrison posted:

Eren mentioned in an earlier chapter he CAN take their powers, but he refuses to take away their freedom to choose to oppose him.

He did, but he might have lied. It's not a manga where the antagonist always tells the truth, at worst saying it out of context to deceive the viewer. Eren himself told Mikasa a plausible explanation why she was compelled to protect him and how he hates her for that. Later it turned out to be a lie told to alienate her.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


bees x1000 posted:

Oh yeah I agree, I am by no means saying YAY RUMBLING. I just think the story is a good one because Eren and the Alliance both have understandable motivations. And Marley. And the rest of the world.

I am saying YAY RUMBLING but I'm also excited to see how Armin figures out a better way and stops it

In conclusion, AOT is a manga of contrasts

Relin
Oct 6, 2002

You have been a most worthy adversary, but in every game, there are winners and there are losers. And as you know, in this game, losers get robotizicized!

Eej posted:

Next week's anime should remind everyone of Eren's motivation, that a world where the state must compel a young woman into being a womb for weapons of mass destruction to protect itself is a twisted world that should not exist
looks like we got a zeke sympathizer here

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





Eej posted:

I am saying YAY RUMBLING but I'm also excited to see how Armin figures out a better way and stops it

In conclusion, AOT is a manga of contrasts

I really can't see a good way out of this situation.

Putting aside PATHS/future sight stuff for a moment, Eren was put into a convoluted trolley problem where his choices were either let his friends/people die or kill everyone else. I really don't think any half measures would work, mostly for the same reason Jean (linked) did. And the sense of urgency on Eren's part had to be a major factor, there's no guarantee his or Historia/Zeke's inheritors would be able to maintain the power through coups and assassination attempts/etc., and eventually military technology will tip the balance where the world could put Paradis in a MAD scenario. Hange and crew have no good solutions but out of a justified sense of not wanting to be an accessory to mass murder, want to stop him no matter the consequences. So even if they win, if they return to Paradis will they be received as traitors or heroes? AFAIK Yeagerists still control the island since Pixis/etc are all dead.



So Eren goes through with it, and it seems at this point most of Marley and a good portion of other nations have been Rumbled. How can Armin possibily forge a peace out of this? The survivors will want vengeance and feel like the Eldians represent an existential threat to the world. It seems like the story is moving in a direction where the Titan powers will vanish by the end, but I don't think that will ease the pain for the millions that have died by Eren's hand. I just don't want a kumbaya/Geass ending when SnK has shown us time and time again that their world doesn't work like this.

serious gaylord
Sep 16, 2007

what.


I think the scene with the eldian and marley survivors still gunning each other down shows what will happen even if Eren is stopped.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


mightygerm posted:

I really can't see a good way out of this situation.

Putting aside PATHS/future sight stuff for a moment, Eren was put into a convoluted trolley problem where his choices were either let his friends/people die or kill everyone else. I really don't think any half measures would work, mostly for the same reason Jean (linked) did. And the sense of urgency on Eren's part had to be a major factor, there's no guarantee his or Historia/Zeke's inheritors would be able to maintain the power through coups and assassination attempts/etc., and eventually military technology will tip the balance where the world could put Paradis in a MAD scenario. Hange and crew have no good solutions but out of a justified sense of not wanting to be an accessory to mass murder, want to stop him no matter the consequences. So even if they win, if they return to Paradis will they be received as traitors or heroes? AFAIK Yeagerists still control the island since Pixis/etc are all dead.



So Eren goes through with it, and it seems at this point most of Marley and a good portion of other nations have been Rumbled. How can Armin possibily forge a peace out of this? The survivors will want vengeance and feel like the Eldians represent an existential threat to the world. It seems like the story is moving in a direction where the Titan powers will vanish by the end, but I don't think that will ease the pain for the millions that have died by Eren's hand. I just don't want a kumbaya/Geass ending when SnK has shown us time and time again that their world doesn't work like this.
The argument is basically that as soon as other nations get nuclear weapons they'll level Eldia but that doesn't make any sense. a.) This world is centuries off of nuclear weapons and isn't even aware they could ever exist and b.) our modern world has persisted with mutually assured destruction. I don't think this reasoning is accurate (it's totally fair for Jean to believe it though).

Gantolandon
Aug 19, 2012



mightygerm posted:

So Eren goes through with it, and it seems at this point most of Marley and a good portion of other nations have been Rumbled. How can Armin possibily forge a peace out of this? The survivors will want vengeance and feel like the Eldians represent an existential threat to the world. It seems like the story is moving in a direction where the Titan powers will vanish by the end, but I don't think that will ease the pain for the millions that have died by Eren's hand. I just don't want a kumbaya/Geass ending when SnK has shown us time and time again that their world doesn't work like this.

I'd argue Paradis won't need the survivors to forgive and forget, because they won't be able to mount a coherent invasion for years, if not decades. It's their descendants who will eventually be able to avenge them and they simply could decide they don't give a poo poo about dead people they didn't get to know.

It's not like Marley's incredibly long grudge against Eldians was anything but a convenient justification to use them as cannon fodder. Without this motivation, and necessity to treat their Eldian minority as constantly armed nuclear bombs, hostility towards them should gradually decline.

Professor Wayne
Aug 27, 2008

So, Harvey, what became of the giant penny?

They actually let him keep it.

Looking at AoT and Sekiro, are immortal, anti-decapitation centipedes a thing in Japan?

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


Professor Wayne posted:

Looking at AoT and Sekiro, are immortal, anti-decapitation centipedes a thing in Japan?

I think the originator of the concept was the '93 manga Blade of the Immortal.

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





Professor Wayne posted:

Looking at AoT and Sekiro, are immortal, anti-decapitation centipedes a thing in Japan?

There's the Oomukade yokai that is a fairly known myth there. It was completely invincible (save for being weak to human saliva or biting) and was fear by gods and dragons alike until a farmer killed it with a spit-laced arrow. It couldn't be severed by traditional means, though many dragons tried.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


No Wave posted:

a.) This world is centuries off of nuclear weapons and isn't even aware they could ever exist

This is besides the point, but pre-rumbling they were fielding early 20th century tech, and this world also has sakuradite magical energy stones.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Fair, technology setup is weird enough in this story that anything could happen within in a decade. I do think it would be beyond Paradisians' expectations though.

Schwarzwald
Jul 27, 2004

Don't Blink


The fear isn't that nations would nuke Paradise but that they'd land with armed men and wipe them out the old fashioned way.

mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





I'm seeing that a lot of people think that Yelena is Armin in ep5. Pieck never saw a non-barbequed Armin, right?

Lamebot
Sep 8, 2005

ロボ顔菌~♡


Oh hey, it's that poster again in the anime thread doing plot dumps under the guise of speculation. They openly stated that they wondered how Udo and Zofia will die next episode. That person is weird.

Lamebot fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 11, 2021

UnderFreddy
Oct 9, 2012

The biggest things in life have been achieved by people who, at the start, we would have judged crazy. And yet if they had not had these crazy ideas the world would have been more stupid

mightygerm posted:

I'm seeing that a lot of people think that Yelena is Armin in ep5. Pieck never saw a non-barbequed Armin, right?

It is kind of funny considering everyone thought it was Connie when the manga was coming out.

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mightygerm
Jun 29, 2002





UnderFreddy posted:

It is kind of funny considering everyone thought it was Connie when the manga was coming out.

Its fun to look back on some of the manga reader theories, between Isayama's old art and lack of voices, we were way off on some things.

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