Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp


Han Feizi posted:

Does anyone know of anywhere around Camp Pendleton where I could learn historical fencing? I have always had a fascination with the rapier but most HEMA around here is devoted to longsword.

Your closest club is indeed longsword, which despite the somewhat corny name, is run by a very well respected teacher. There is also an SCA rapier practice in the area with a couple of very good teachers but it's entirely free and volunteer and if you're not planning on dressing up and going to their events it may not be for you.

North in LA, there's Kron and Tattershall, the former in Fullerton and the latter in Long Beach. That's the south part of LA so not as bad a drive. Kron is again a primarily longsword group but also does have dedicated rapier practices. Tattershall is more rapier centric but also does some different weapons.

Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Apr 12, 2015

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


SCA is very hit or miss, and usually if there's a competing WMA school nearby people will self-select accordingly, but it's worth going to at least once to see who attends. Some of them just like the clothes and some just put up with the clothes.

I'm lucky enough to live near the Davenriche school in norcal, but I went to the local SCA meetups once with zero expectations and found some dedicated people.

And, speaking of the festering shithole that is LA, is anyone going to combatcon this year?

tirinal fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Apr 12, 2015

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp


tirinal posted:

SCA is very hit or miss, and usually if there's a competing WMA school nearby people will self-select accordingly, but it's worth going to at least once to see who attends. Some of them just like the clothes and some just put up with the clothes.

I'm lucky enough to live near the Davenriche school in norcal, but I went to the local SCA meetups once with zero expectations and found some dedicated people.

And, speaking of the festering shithole that is LA, is anyone going to combatcon this year?

Kron usually puts in a showing but they do have like 100 people.

Han Feizi
Jul 20, 2014


Zeitgueist posted:

Your closest club is indeed longsword, which despite the somewhat corny name, is run by a very well respected teacher. There is also an SCA rapier practice in the area with a couple of very good teachers but it's entirely free and volunteer and if you're not planning on dressing up and going to their events it may not be for you.

North in LA, there's Kron and Tattershall, the former in Fullerton and the latter in Long Beach. That's the south part of LA so not as bad a drive. Kron is again a primarily longsword group but also does have dedicated rapier practices. Tattershall is more rapier centric but also does some different weapons.

drat, due to my schedule Tattershall is out, and it actually looks like Kron and Chivalry Today are equidistant. I was very put off by Chivalry Today's cheese, but if you say the instructor is very well regarded I may have to consider it! Kron seems like it has a bigger following, and more of a community though.

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp


Han Feizi posted:

drat, due to my schedule Tattershall is out, and it actually looks like Kron and Chivalry Today are equidistant. I was very put off by Chivalry Today's cheese, but if you say the instructor is very well regarded I may have to consider it! Kron seems like it has a bigger following, and more of a community though.

Scott(Chivalry Today) is a hella nice guy, just super geeked out about historical stuff. He's very well respected for his teaching and technical knowledge.

Kron is a very large group, owing the fact they have an essentially free space on a college campus and some very active leadership/members. Most other groups rent space and charge decent amounts of money because of that. They also run the annual Socal Swordfight HEMA convention in the LA area and have a couple of satellite groups(all north of the OC one, though). Again, they are primarily a longsword group, but they have several dedicated rapier fighters who cross over with other groups in the area as well.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



So, a priority question for reffy types: in foil, if someone establishes a line and moves backwards while keeping their point in line and arm extended (e.g. stepping back or dodging by leaning their torso back), are they ceding priority? Some people have told me no, as the arm remains out and the line remains unbroken, whereas others have said that any backwards motion of the point cedes right of way.

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Apr 16, 2015

Neon Belly
Feb 12, 2008

I need something stronger.


Crazy Achmed posted:

So, a priority question for reffy types: in foil, if someone establishes a line and moves backwards while keeping their point in line and arm extended (e.g. stepping back or dodging by leaning their torso back), are they ceding priority? Some people have told me no, as the arm remains out and the line remains unbroken, whereas others have said that any backwards motion of the point cedes right of way.

A line is a line is a line. It exists irrespective of footwork.

Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfPyANhtPuM

Neon Belly fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Apr 16, 2015

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Anyone know why two of the Div1 NACs next season are in the DC/VA area and stacked pretty close both location and time-wise to ROCs in the region? Or is this just an artifact of it being the first time I've ever really looked at the NAC schedule?

e: vvv That's really cool.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Apr 16, 2015

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





Just gonna borrow this from Axel Pettersson's Facebook: "HEMA in Sweden just got official Swedish Championship status granted by the Swedish Sports Federation. This is a huge milestone for us, our HEMA National Championships will now be recorded in official sports statistics and we will have a much higher profile in media and as an official sport." http://www.budokampsport.se/nyheter/2015/4/rf-har-beviljat-hema-sm-status-uppsala-kan-bli-historisk-vardstad

Hedningen
May 4, 2013

Enough sideburns to last a lifetime.


Just getting back into longsword after a while training in Fiore a few years back. The local group (which I found because a couple of my neighbors were practicing on their lawn) is mostly interested in Liechtenauer, so I'm still working on getting back up to speed due to the differences in terminology and some of the poor habits I picked up several years ago, but it's great to be getting back into HEMA, especially given how good of a work-out it is.

Also, hooray official Sweden HEMA! I know a few guys in Uppsala and Umeå who will be happy to know that they're getting official recognition. Anyone ever work on the Charles XII sabre manual? I found a copy of it a few years back and wondered if it's any good.

BirdOfPlay
Feb 19, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

Ravenfood posted:

Anyone know why two of the Div1 NACs next season are in the DC/VA area and stacked pretty close both location and time-wise to ROCs in the region? Or is this just an artifact of it being the first time I've ever really looked at the NAC schedule?

e: vvv That's really cool.

NAC's and ROC's are done separately and created from different processes. NAC's are completely handled by US Fencing and are based on negotiations with convention centers, usually invovling how much the center will pay US Fencing (seriously). Gone are the days of divisions bidding on hosting a NAC.

ROC's, on the other hand, are bidden on by individual clubs/divisions with a set date and venue in mind. After the committee (forget which one) receives the all bid packets for the season, they weigh them out based on the "regions" and grant them accordingly.

The artifacts in this are actually just the result of these two systems acting independently of each other. I also feel like ROC's are decided before the NAC schedule is finalized.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


Welcome to turn-of-the-century France
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rElNQuBvFeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vybUtd4GOnU
please enjoy your stay

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever



These are really too fascinating (as well as the dozen or so additional ones to be found on youtube). Definitely helps put into perspective the timidity inherent when fighting with sharps for real. Even low level fencing generally shows more aggressiveness than what is being shown in these videos.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

Hey, a fencing thread! Just as I was starting to think "I wonder if I could start a fencing thread...". How much do we make fun of the fencing.net forums here?

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


DandyLion posted:

These are really too fascinating (as well as the dozen or so additional ones to be found on youtube). Definitely helps put into perspective the timidity inherent when fighting with sharps for real. Even low level fencing generally shows more aggressiveness than what is being shown in these videos.

It's kind of interesting to compare this to WMA sparring as well. Unlike sport fencing, people who do it usually claim it's a martial art, which is true enough, and that it's a recreation of traditional fencing, which is more doubtful.

Bouts at my WMA school usually look nothing like this, simply because the consequence of risk is not a punctured lung. There's no way to introduce a best-of scoring format to combat and not warp how it's conducted.

Put another way, even if the techniques are technically the same, there's a large difference between using them to get the most points versus to not lose any points.

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





tirinal posted:

It's kind of interesting to compare this to WMA sparring as well. Unlike sport fencing, people who do it usually claim it's a martial art, which is true enough, and that it's a recreation of traditional fencing, which is more doubtful.

Bouts at my WMA school usually look nothing like this, simply because the consequence of risk is not a punctured lung. There's no way to introduce a best-of scoring format to combat and not warp how it's conducted.

Put another way, even if the techniques are technically the same, there's a large difference between using them to get the most points versus to not lose any points.

It's an issue we deal with constantly. How do you learn to fence "for real" without that inherent risk of real injury?

My battodo teacher's teacher hates double hits with a passion. He will punish you very hard if you land a double hit, if only to help spread that fear. Anyone who doesn't care about their own life can kill even an experienced fencer, which is why it's important to at least try and fence as if your life depends on it.

Siivola
Dec 23, 2012



About half of the timidity probably comes from the fact that the duel is done and everybody has to go home the moment one dude gets a tiny little cut on the arm. If you want to emulate that, just make it a rule that whoever loses a point has to do thirty pushups, and any bout devolves into that tippy-tappy poo poo.

tirinal
Feb 5, 2007


Siivola posted:

About half of the timidity probably comes from the fact that the duel is done and everybody has to go home the moment one dude gets a tiny little cut on the arm. If you want to emulate that, just make it a rule that whoever loses a point has to do thirty pushups, and any bout devolves into that tippy-tappy poo poo.

Sure, but most places derive their function (and their funding) from teaching. And in the unlikely event WMA ever becomes a mainstream thing like sport fencing or MMA, you can add entertainment to that.

Tippy-tappy poo poo would make for bad teaching in academies (although I'd argue so does any kind of sparring compared to drills, unless you're already extremely good) and bad entertainment at events.

There's really no solution, just because the two things are so at odds with each other. Even in the 1600s, nobody learned "fencing." They learned swordplay, and occasionally did fencing. 400 years later, you can revive or relearn swordplay, but you can't reenact fencing without deluding yourself.

tirinal fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Apr 23, 2015

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Siivola posted:

About half of the timidity probably comes from the fact that the duel is done and everybody has to go home the moment one dude gets a tiny little cut on the arm. If you want to emulate that, just make it a rule that whoever loses a point has to do thirty pushups, and any bout devolves into that tippy-tappy poo poo.
Well, yeah, this is the whole thing about any "sportification", i.e. introduction of some kind of rules. As soon as anything becomes about winning within a set of rules rather than surviving/killing, then you bet that everyone involved has it in their best interests to find ways to push and exploit those rules as hard as they can.

Hence sport fencing. But luckily, sport fencing is really fun and stuff


Also, there's also a chance that those videos come from a period when dueling itself was legal, but killing someone during said duel wasn't.

Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Apr 23, 2015

BirdOfPlay
Feb 19, 2012

THUNDERDOME LOSER

dupersaurus posted:

Hey, a fencing thread! Just as I was starting to think "I wonder if I could start a fencing thread...". How much do we make fun of the fencing.net forums here?

Read the whole thread (seriously, it's 13 pages, I have more to catch up on with either the Political Cartoon or US Pol in D&D). We do surprisingly little about discussion about F.net here, even though it is the Reddit of the fencing world.

See the 5 active threads on F.net about the qualification paths to Summer Nationals. Even though they FUCKNG KNOW that Junior Men's Epee was an incomplete 512 after cutoffs. I had to look it up to confirm, but they were 290 motherfuckers that continued to DE's. I know, for a fact, that the final for that event occurred after 1 AM, and the event started at 8 AM.

I'm sorry, but am I ranting?

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



BirdOfPlay posted:

Read the whole thread (seriously, it's 13 pages, I have more to catch up on with either the Political Cartoon or US Pol in D&D). We do surprisingly little about discussion about F.net here, even though it is the Reddit of the fencing world.

See the 5 active threads on F.net about the qualification paths to Summer Nationals. Even though they FUCKNG KNOW that Junior Men's Epee was an incomplete 512 after cutoffs. I had to look it up to confirm, but they were 290 motherfuckers that continued to DE's. I know, for a fact, that the final for that event occurred after 1 AM, and the event started at 8 AM.

I'm sorry, but am I ranting?
I've had a look at fencing.net a few times, mostly for specific gear recommendations/reviews, but never delved into it more than that.

What do you mean by incomplete 512? What's the deal with the qualification paths? And having to fence into the small hours sounds pretty brutal. Unless drinks are involved, in which case it probably becomes awesome.

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

The fencing.net forums, looking to find solutions to non-existent problems since 1999.

I'm not dealing with nationals this year, but from what I've heard it's a tangled mess if you're one of those people out there fencing nationally (NACs, ROCs, RYCs, etc). I think one of the coaches at my club ended up making a flow chart to help guide parents through it.

Crazy Achmed posted:

What do you mean by incomplete 512?

There were too many people for a 256-fencer round, but fewer than 512, so there were something like 222 (?) byes in the first round.

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



A 50% chance of automatically making it to the second round of DEs sounds fair
Isn't this what poules are for?

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery


Would it really be the end of the world if they went with the 256 DE bracket and just cut off the bottom end of the fencers? They usually have a cutoff anyway, why not just pick the bracket size that matches the participant number and cutcutcut

Crazy Achmed
Mar 13, 2001



Come to think of it, wouldn't it make more sense to limit the number of entrants to 2^n?

dupersaurus
Aug 1, 2012

Futurism was an art movement where dudes were all 'CARS ARE COOL AND THE PAST IS FOR CHUMPS. LET'S DRAW SOME CARS.'

I have wondered why they cut at 80%, and not to fit the biggest 2^N. Though it would suck to be in an event of 2^N+1, and be the +1 after the cut.

Crazy Achmed posted:

A 50% chance of automatically making it to the second round of DEs sounds fair
Isn't this what poules are for?

This was after the post-poule cut.

DandyLion
Jun 24, 2010
disrespectul Deciever


Verisimilidude posted:

It's an issue we deal with constantly. How do you learn to fence "for real" without that inherent risk of real injury?

My battodo teacher's teacher hates double hits with a passion. He will punish you very hard if you land a double hit, if only to help spread that fear. Anyone who doesn't care about their own life can kill even an experienced fencer, which is why it's important to at least try and fence as if your life depends on it.

This is one of the most critical issues with HEMA that I constantly wrestle with. I recently rediscovered an article I read some years ago that details a couple of fella's foray into a modern semi-sharp saber duel. Its especially insightful in understanding the place fear of bodily harm has in affecting the manner in which we spar.

http://boxwrestlefence.com/blog/2012/09/27/from-the-archives-ruminations-on-a-duel/

Verisimilidude
Dec 20, 2006

Strike quick and hurry at him,
not caring to hit or miss.
So that you dishonor him before the judges





DandyLion posted:

This is one of the most critical issues with HEMA that I constantly wrestle with. I recently rediscovered an article I read some years ago that details a couple of fella's foray into a modern semi-sharp saber duel. Its especially insightful in understanding the place fear of bodily harm has in affecting the manner in which we spar.

http://boxwrestlefence.com/blog/2012/09/27/from-the-archives-ruminations-on-a-duel/

This is great, thanks!

Here's a fight between Roland Warzecha and Jake Norwood with minimal gear (literally just gym clothes and mensur goggles). You can see how much more out of distance they're staying, and how they're focusing on defense more than offense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WH974doYI8

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery


Heee, they were showing off a bunch in that video. Not that that's a bad thing really, they're obviously having fun and posing a bit for the camera, the audience, and each other. I wonder how much looking good and puffing in front of your opponent was done for effect back in the day. I'd wager a non-zero amount.

In terms of bodily harm, the mesur guys really do cut each other's faces up so if anything they're probably pretty close to the realm of practicing combat with the risk of bodily harm. I think they've got lots of rules though like ONLY hitting the head and the equipment is really specialized. Still crazy though.

married but discreet
May 7, 2005




Taco Defender

That link about the duel led me to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmS2nSm5n2Q

It's funny how they're passing off some unarmed dude doing distance parries (nice ones admittedly) as somehow very impressive.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

El Spamo posted:

In terms of bodily harm, the mesur guys really do cut each other's faces up so if anything they're probably pretty close to the realm of practicing combat with the risk of bodily harm. I think they've got lots of rules though like ONLY hitting the head and the equipment is really specialized. Still crazy though.
Well, or not:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUh5exBJXBU&feature=player_detailpage#t=212

El Spamo
Aug 21, 2003

Fuss and misery


Huh. Well then.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


I met a German frat brother in a hostel in Erfurt once; his scar was on the back/top of his head and he told me that's where a lot of them aim for now since in the right neighborhoods if you've got one on your face you'll get beat up because people will think you're a Nazi

Cool guy. He used the exact same word for "drinking a beer as fast as you can" and "the noise a sword makes when it hits another sword or a person." (Their beer of choice? According to him, Corona--since it has very little taste it's easier to down as fast as possible. They buy them by the flat)

Power Khan
Aug 20, 2011

I'll shoot the moon.

I don't recall seeing a person younger than 40 with a Schmiß (the scar from the Mensur) in the face in the last 15 years. The whole thing degenerated into a subsub culture with very clear deutschnationale or neonazi connotations. Ostracized is probably too strong, but kinda like being tatooed on the face. You can find those guys studying law or medicine usually. They stay within their bubble.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME


This dude said he was a conservative and then I asked him what he thought about immigration into Germany and he said he wanted more of it, putting him, in American terms, somewhere to the left of Rosa Luxemburg

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


IM_DA_DECIDER posted:

That link about the duel led me to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmS2nSm5n2Q

It's funny how they're passing off some unarmed dude doing distance parries (nice ones admittedly) as somehow very impressive.
Now, some of those are very nice and I'd love to be able to do that, but the epeeist is also seemingly not going for body touches most of the time. Eh.

On another note, mensur is insane.

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



Verisimilidude posted:

Anyone who doesn't care about their own life can kill even an experienced fencer, which is why it's important to at least try and fence as if your life depends on it.

Sutemi is an important and recurring concept in JSA. While often translated as "Throwing ones life away", it''s better translated as "Concentration and effort with all one’s might, even at the risk of death.". Judo has sutemi-waza, which translated as "sacrifice-throws".
Fear is considered one of the 4 sickness, (Fear, surprise, doubt, hesitation) and is tied into that. If you are afraid of dying, you will hesitate in attacking freely and thus the risk of being defeated increases.

So, the overall philosophy in JSA is often not to fight as if your life depended on it, but to be prepared to give up your life in order to defeat the opponent.

Nektu
Jul 4, 2007

FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK


Cybernetic Crumb

ImplicitAssembler posted:

So, the overall philosophy in JSA is often not to fight as if your life depended on it, but to be prepared to give up your life in order to defeat the opponent.
Ahh yea, feudalism and its brainwashed warriors that lived to give their lives for their lords.

Today we would just conscript everyone and shoot those that run. Far easier, progress in action.

JaucheCharly posted:

I don't recall seeing a person younger than 40 with a Schmiß (the scar from the Mensur) in the face in the last 15 years. The whole thing degenerated into a subsub culture with very clear deutschnationale or neonazi connotations. Ostracized is probably too strong, but kinda like being tatooed on the face. You can find those guys studying law or medicine usually. They stay within their bubble.
True enough although "neonazis" are generally the plebs of the radical right in germany and would not be found in those circles.

I heard that some historic fencing clubs in germany have to regularly distant themselves from that poo poo and throw out a few troublemakes now and then.

Nektu fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Apr 26, 2015

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




Verisimilidude posted:

It's an issue we deal with constantly. How do you learn to fence "for real" without that inherent risk of real injury?

My battodo teacher's teacher hates double hits with a passion. He will punish you very hard if you land a double hit, if only to help spread that fear. Anyone who doesn't care about their own life can kill even an experienced fencer, which is why it's important to at least try and fence as if your life depends on it.

This is, idly, one of the things that I think results from what the Martial Arts thread preaches against as well. Not sparring full contact. Pain is a great teacher, and you will never learn to defend yourself the way you will if failure hurts by playing for points. It's one of the things SCA combat does well, although pretty much everything else about it is nothing like real swordwork. A lovely guard or overextension is punished by getting hit with enough force to let you know you've hosed up and not want to do it again.

Until I got around to building better cuisses (and building up better arm strength and speed) I used to come home with zebra-stripe bruises on the outside of my left thigh because my shield side was too slow and wasn't getting down to catch leg shots.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013



Nektu posted:

Ahh yea, feudalism and its brainwashed warriors that lived to give their lives for their lords.

Today we would just conscript everyone and shoot those that run. Far easier, progress in action.


The concept still works. If you are worried about being countered, your attack will often not be as strong, as one done with abandon.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply