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Doom Mathematic
Sep 2, 2008

qhat posted:

Reviewing co-op applications today. One guy stated outright in his cover letter "once you see my grades I know you'll want to meet me". So I check his grades and see some F's and immediately throw the resume in the garbage lol.

Ah, the Calvin from Calvin & Hobbes "You know how Albert Einstein did really badly at school, well my grades are even worse" gambit.

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Bored Online
May 25, 2009

We don't need Rome telling us what to do.
i can see that working because there are so many nerds who ďdidnt need schoolĒ and begrudge the university system because they didnt see the value in a math or humanities course

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

The Management posted:

anyone who mentions grades gets an eye roll from me and then I turn up the difficulty of my technical questions.

you sound like the kind of guy who thought homework was beneath you and got Cs, and are now permanently bitter about anyone who showed up and actually did what was asked

it's a loving co-op position, grades are one of the few things they can actually talk about

lampey
Mar 27, 2012

is this for their first job out of college? I don't see where grades would come up at all in an interview otherwise

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

co-op is another term for internship, at least at my company

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

carry on then posted:

you sound like the kind of guy who thought homework was beneath you and got Cs, and are now permanently bitter about anyone who showed up and actually did what was asked

it's a loving co-op position, grades are one of the few things they can actually talk about

dude, take a deep breath.

Iíve yet to see any correlation between grades and career skill. Iíve interviewed people with straight Aís at top schools that couldnít answer basic questions about computers and I know dropouts who are some of the best engineers Iíve met (and the opposite as well). I can see where a still in college kid would think grades mean something. but they donít.

Emacs Headroom
Aug 2, 2003

The Management posted:

I can see where a still in college kid would think grades mean something. but they donít.

I think maybe banks will ask for transcripts, but they're totally ignored at any tech company I've been at (why would you care what grade someone got if a random person who learned everything on coursera outperforms them on the take-home and interviews?)

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

lampey posted:

is this for their first job out of college? I don't see where grades would come up at all in an interview otherwise

:yossame:

although I could see some kinds of people wanting to see at least a diploma

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

The Management posted:

dude, take a deep breath.

Iíve yet to see any correlation between grades and career skill. Iíve interviewed people with straight Aís at top schools that couldnít answer basic questions about computers and I know dropouts who are some of the best engineers Iíve met (and the opposite as well). I can see where a still in college kid would think grades mean something. but they donít.

so you're going to penalize them? when i was in college i was working part time and doing what was asked of me on every assignment. sorry i didn't spend every waking hour developing a bestselling app as a one man show at the same time

but i wasn't going to stanford, so i guess i wouldn't have been in front of you anyway

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


My current CEO asked to see my transcripts from ten years ago for some reason lol. He was an ex-professor so prob he's a bit biased towards strong academic results, and he tried to use it as leverage in salary negotiations but I wasn't having any of it and just restated my original range. He capitulated though because the team really wanted me and then three months later he bumped me up to a higher salary than we agreed upon anyway.

But yeah anyway if you brag about your grades and they're actually nothing to brag about, I'm going to consider immediately not reading any further under the presumption you're not that bright.

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

carry on then posted:

so you're going to penalize them? when i was in college i was working part time and doing what was asked of me on every assignment. sorry i didn't spend every waking hour developing a bestselling app as a one man show at the same time

but i wasn't going to stanford, so i guess i wouldn't have been in front of you anyway

I literally said I donít care if they even went to school or about their grades. how did that transform into the assumption that I would only interview Stanford people? thatís the exact opposite of what I said.

I am happy for you that you did every assignment and worked hard and I hope it pays off for you. I worked hard to get to where I am, but not in the same route as you. if you believe that grades are meaningful then bragging about your GPA should raise the bar, shouldnít it? youíve proven that youíre more capable than your peers and therefore should be performing at a higher level. if thatís not true then what is the value of your grades?

Analytic Engine
May 18, 2009

not the analytical engine

The Management posted:

I literally said I donít care if they even went to school or about their grades. how did that transform into the assumption that I would only interview Stanford people? thatís the exact opposite of what I said.

I am happy for you that you did every assignment and worked hard and I hope it pays off for you. I worked hard to get to where I am, but not in the same route as you. if you believe that grades are meaningful then bragging about your GPA should raise the bar, shouldnít it? youíve proven that youíre more capable than your peers and therefore should be performing at a higher level. if thatís not true then what is the value of your grades?

The distinction is between "who someone is" and "what someone does". If you evaluate people in this way (and SV really loves doing it), then grades + credentials + school quality + ambition + personality + VC anointing + social politics are reflections of your inner value as an Important Person. It's like Class. An old money failson might ruin every economic opportunity handed to him, but he'll always be a Cultured Influential Upper Class Citizen that people flock to more than you. The Stanford label is the same as achieving and maintaining a high GPA: you (the interviewer) are expected to give more value to them (the Smart Person) because they are who they are. To Adults that grew up straight-A kids, this is *obvious*. They expect special treatment and will call you unfair for failing them on a bad day of algorithm exams.

This is also how SV/Finance/Politician people can watch a poor/marginalized person act in ways demonstrating intelligence and hard work beyond what's expected of Tech Bros, but then write it off as someone "on a good day" or "getting lucky". Those groundlings aren't worthy of a VC handout, not like Sam Altman.

Analytic Engine fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 27, 2018

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Jfc. All anyone's saying is that noone gives, or should give, two shits about your dumb university grades, unless of course you actually make it a cornerstone of your application and then guess what the interviewer is going to start giving a poo poo if they aren't what you claim them to be.

Analytic Engine
May 18, 2009

not the analytical engine

qhat posted:

Jfc. All anyone's saying is that noone gives, or should give, two shits about your dumb university grades, unless of course you actually make it a cornerstone of your application and then guess what the interviewer is going to start giving a poo poo if they aren't what you claim them to be.

Didn't say that ideology was good

This is a forum and I explained an unstated assumption that was causing confusion. Maybe you're right, it's better to let people yell past each other

Edit: these careposts are to explain that some people (including very rich/influential/powerful people unfortunately) consider grades a sacrosanct part of human worth. That might be stupid, but they are on board with cultures like India/China/Japan/Korea and will gleefully ruin the lives of your kids for not getting gud at skool

Analytic Engine fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jan 27, 2018

Emacs Headroom
Aug 2, 2003

Analytic Engine posted:

The Stanford label is the same as achieving and maintaining a high GPA: you (the interviewer) are expected to give more value to them (the Smart Person) because they are who they are.

ive interviewed dozens and dozens of candidates and screened hundreds of resumes across multiple recognizable tech companies. i can tell you i do not give a poo poo about college or gpa, and encourage anyone asking for advice in screening resumes to do the same.

projects matter, github kind-of matters, internships matter, significant OSS contributions to real projects (e.g. Apache-maintained) would more or less guarantee a hire

grades and highly-ranked college are good to have if you wanna go to business school.

edit: of course you have to be able to string a readable sentence together if you wanna go to business school, so maybe don't do that

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
last month a recruiter asked for my transcripts on the first contact. Meaning she wanted me to send them back in e-mail. I last attended in 2005 & said I don't generally provide transcripts at that stage in the process. then over the holidays I forgot all about it

this week i got an e-mail that she'd scheduled me for a morning interview. didn't check my availablity on the day or nothing.

I wrote back to the effect of "idgaf, and by the way that's not a very productive way to do things"

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EfI-PPBwzU

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

first, i'm talking about internship interviews, so if you aren't let's just drop this talking past each other fest

second, help me get this straight: i'm supposed to blow off my core classes and barely pass, so that i can spend all my time working on spare projects that are basically jobs, in order to get to an interview where you grill me on concepts covered in those classes i'm blowing off to get into the interview. if instead i decide to take those same classes seriously and have less time for my own projects, my resume will be thrown in the trash. how am i, as someone seeking an internship, supposed to be able to get past this?

carry on then fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jan 27, 2018

Arcteryx Anarchist
Sep 15, 2007


Fun Shoe

carry on then posted:

first, i'm talking about internship interviews, so if you aren't let's just drop this talking past each other fest

second, help me get this straight: i'm supposed to blow off my core classes and barely pass, so that i can spend all my time working on spare projects that are basically jobs, in order to get to an interview where you grill me on concepts covered in those classes i'm blowing off to get into the interview. if instead i decide to take those same classes seriously and have less time for my own projects, my resume will be thrown in the trash. how am i, as someone seeking an internship, supposed to be able to get past this?

why arenít you just doing everything at all possible times? come on

but yeah itís just memes about qualifications leaking

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

carry on then posted:

first, i'm talking about internship interviews, so if you aren't let's just drop this talking past each other fest

second, help me get this straight: i'm supposed to blow off my core classes and barely pass, so that i can spend all my time working on spare projects that are basically jobs, in order to get to an interview where you grill me on concepts covered in those classes i'm blowing off to get into the interview. if instead i decide to take those same classes seriously and have less time for my own projects, my resume will be thrown in the trash. how am i, as someone seeking an internship, supposed to be able to get past this?

having a ton of poo poo to show off on github is a million times more impressive than an A+ in algorithm design from university.

the order is view applications is likely resume -> github -> cover letter -> anything else -> grades

another problem with grades is you have to know the context with which they are given, what they mean at a given institution and the quality of said institution which unless youíve been there or have firsthand experience is really difficult to gage.

Arcteryx Anarchist
Sep 15, 2007


Fun Shoe
when we hire interns, some people are bigger sticklers on GPA than others and we do have a minimum standard at which point if somebody is below it then we need a good argument on why we should give them a pass on it

I put kind of a medium weight on grades for student interns, because school is kind of your primary job at that point and its an ok proxy for what kind of effort you're putting in, but at the same time I know very well there can be extenuating circumstances for a less than stellar gpa; other than that all I really check is what their course background is to see if they have stuff that lines up somewhat with any project I might want them to work on and if they can speak to them like they at least paid attention in class

students are students so evaluating them by the same rubric as you would a more experienced professional is dumb as hell; of course they don't know the same things -- the reason for them pursuing an internship is to get experience they would otherwise not get in school

and for first job candidates its basically the same -- they're entry level people getting their first job

Emacs Headroom
Aug 2, 2003

Boiled Water posted:

the order is view applications is likely resume -> github -> cover letter -> anything else -> grades

I, personally, have never read a cover letter. It takes me about 45 seconds to scan a resume, and the top things I'm looking for are experience (or projects), relevant pubs, and familiarity with frameworks / languages / tools the job uses

but I'm the type of interviewer that thinks whiteboarding some dynamic programming puzzles is a total waste of time.

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

im the student padding their first industry resume with things like "plays guitar", "did unrelated activity x" in highschool, or drops refs to "real passion to teamwork"

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

I mean I get how it is and never judge someone negatively about it, because we all went there (at least I did), but oh man is it always fun to see how they tried to pad the stack.

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

I want to imagine the alternative is getting your resume thrown out by HR on grounds of being thin

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

i included 'elected president of marching band' when i first left college :smugmrgw:

heated game moment
Oct 30, 2003

Lipstick Apathy
the only times my grades ever mattered was when applying to internships the big accounting firms wouldnt look at you if you had under like a 3.5 gpa, and then the federal government will start you at a higher grade level if you have a 'superior academic achievement' which is above a 3.0

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

Boiled Water posted:

having a ton of poo poo to show off on github is a million times more impressive than an A+ in algorithm design from university.

the order is view applications is likely resume -> github -> cover letter -> anything else -> grades

another problem with grades is you have to know the context with which they are given, what they mean at a given institution and the quality of said institution which unless youíve been there or have firsthand experience is really difficult to gage.

i wasn't talking about the initial application. someone posted that if an internship applicant mentions to them that coursework is a focus day-to-day, they automatically ask the hardest technical questions to embarrass them

carry on then fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jan 27, 2018

heated game moment
Oct 30, 2003

Lipstick Apathy

carry on then posted:

"go to stanford or drop out"

galaxy brain: go to stanford AND drop out

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

it is hilarious to me that the same people who are so adamant about only working 9-5 and not touching a computer outside those hours expect applicants to be programming 24/7 while working and going to school

and then complain when they only work with social awkward sperglords

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

I've seen a lot of students just put their homework on github once it had been turned in.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

carry on then posted:

i wasn't talking about the initial application. someone posted that if an internship applicant mentions to them that coursework is a focus day-to-day, they automatically ask the hardest technical questions to embarrass them

have you not worked with fresh grads? especially fresh grads with 'pedigrees'?

they absolutely need to be knocked down a few pegs once they enter the workforce. the cockier they are about their excellent grades the harder you have to knock them. humility is a positive attribute

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

MononcQc posted:

im the student padding their first industry resume with things like "plays guitar", "did unrelated activity x" in highschool, or drops refs to "real passion to teamwork"
I'm the bro startup lead who's impressed

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


grades are fine to look at for an internship but lol @ caring about them for anything else

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica

MononcQc posted:

I've seen a lot of students just put their homework on github once it had been turned in.

lmao i can imagine some dick professor giving them an f and raising a complaint against the student for sharing answers

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

lmao i can imagine some dick professor giving them an f and raising a complaint against the student for sharing answers

This is exactly why all of my homework is lost forever in a campus server I don't have access to anymore.

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?
lol at being afraid of professors.

Shaman Linavi
Apr 3, 2012

the only message i've ever got from someone on github was like "hey put a license on your code so i can use it for homework thanks"
they probs still used it for homework anyway

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

might be shorter to ask the teacher for the permission (or giving them a heads up) than spending all your free time on side-projects to fluff your job applications tho

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The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

The Management posted:

lol at being afraid of professors.

University of Wisconsin doesn't change their cs homework between semesters and they are very serious about booting out students who post their work publicly. It was a real concern given it was my only way out of a century of toil as a poorly paid technical writer.

Sorry not everyone came into their college situation with financial security like you apparently did.

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