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Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."



Joking about shipping Garak with Bashir raises a good point: was there even one LGBTQ character in DS9?

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Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Joking about shipping Garak with Bashir raises a good point: was there even one LGBTQ character in DS9?

yes. garak and bashir. thanks.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 36 days!


Pick posted:

Yes: Garak. Also O'Brien and Bashir. Thanks.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Lead out in cuffs posted:

Joking about shipping Garak with Bashir raises a good point: was there even one LGBTQ character in DS9?

Jadzia Dax (and presumably Ezri as well).

Peachfart
Jan 21, 2017



Lead out in cuffs posted:

Joking about shipping Garak with Bashir raises a good point: was there even one LGBTQ character in DS9?

Well, it was the 90's, so not explicitly. But Garak comes closer than nearly anyone else on TV at the time.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Polaron posted:

Jadzia Dax (and presumably Ezri as well).

It was extremely funny to me that they felt so low in their confidence about having an out queer character that it was couched as like, a sub-component of an extremely ~wild and crazy~ alien lifecycle instead of just like, incredibly mundane.

Also I have a bone-deep confidence that Miles is bi.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Peachfart posted:

Well, it was the 90's, so not explicitly. But Garak comes closer than nearly anyone else on TV at the time.

he's unambiguously coded as such*, and I'd argue that it's half the point, since ds9 took monolithic cultures from tng and add characters that were supposed to be 180s of that (like on purpose, as part of the way they addressed Trek generally and tng specifically). rom. nog. klingon chef. martok. party time science officer. cardassians in tng were militaristic hardasses, so to have one who is a fop is their way to poke at that.

someone always loves to come in and be like "oh it's very REGRESSIVE of you to assume just because he talks about accessorizing and tucks his napkin into his collar he's supposed to be homersexual " to which i can only say, don't be dense. obviously media communicates concepts in ways other than having the characters constantly announce "GOOD MORNING IM GAY" like some sort of early 2010s webcomic


*(and the writers have said it was their intention, though, Behr, I think, has a revisionist view of ds9 times, and the actor said it's what he was going for)

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 36 days!


Pick posted:

rom. nog. klingon chef. martok. party time science officer.

Actually I think you'll find Klingon Chef has right of first mention in any genericized list of DS9 characters? It's a primus inter pares thing?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

feel free to hash it out in the "I don't find Kirk/Spock compelling" thread because, they're watermelon jelly bean.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Cerv posted:

really we should be more worried about the rest of the cast who didn't have a crush on Garak 😍
what's wrong with them?

Bashir is the only one in the cast thirsty enough for novel distraction to find Garak intriguing. Dax maybe would too if she wasn’t old enough to be over nearly everything.

Bashir to me is so interesting because of how desperate he is to forge genuine relationships with all these people and why. Like, he’s the most gifted person there, but he also knows he’s lived his entire life on cheat mode and it wasn’t even his choice. He perceives his workmates as more interesting and deserving of attention because no one hotwired their genes to make them high performing; they had to work their asses off to get where they are and that gives them character. Most of them find his attention to be obnoxious at worst, patronizing and naive at best. Except Garak. Garak seems to like him, but he’s also just withholding enough to create a mystery. Even better than love, Garak offers a distraction from his sense of being made an outsider by his parents who configured and purchased him like one does an expensive computer.

This awareness makes him the one character closest to realizing he is a written fiction, with all the existential woe attendant to that fact.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Might be nice also to hang out with someone who probably doesn't even have a frame of reference for the eugenics wars

but definitely does understand demanding parents lol

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Pick posted:

Might be nice also to hang out with someone who probably doesn't even have a frame of reference for the eugenics wars

but definitely does understand demanding parents lol

Yeah it had to be a relief to know that Garak, if he found out, would consider Bashir’s origins extremely interesting, and probably say something compellingly cryptic about it. Only person on the ship he could be sure wouldn’t turn him in, who also seems to genuinely enjoy his company.

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



mysterious frankie posted:


This awareness makes him the one character closest to realizing he is a written fiction, with all the existential woe attendant to that fact.

that's an interesting thought considering what happened to Sisko with the Benny Russell stuff.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Cerv posted:

that's an interesting thought considering what happened to Sisko with the Benny Russell stuff.

Can you expand on that? I’m only near the end of season two in my rewatch, so I haven’t seen Far Beyond The Stars in what has to have been 10-12 years. I remember the basic plot, but not enough to make a meaningful reply.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

mysterious frankie posted:

Yeah it had to be a relief to know that Garak, if he found out, would consider Bashir’s origins extremely interesting, and probably say something compellingly cryptic about it. Only person on the ship he could be sure wouldn’t turn him in, who also seems to genuinely enjoy his company.

Yep. He's his first friend on the station.

Cerv
Sep 14, 2004

This is a silly post with little news value.



mysterious frankie posted:

Can you expand on that? I’m only near the end of season two in my rewatch, so I haven’t seen Far Beyond The Stars in what has to have been 10-12 years. I remember the basic plot, but not enough to make a meaningful reply.

so FBTS has a very explicit on the nose take on it with the character of Sisko being confronted with the idea that he and everything in his life are a work of fiction. so he has this big experience of that existential woe you mention but it comes and goes wrapped up in 45 minutes. although it would be revisited to less success in one later s7 episode I forget the name of and briefly in What You Leave Behind, it wasn't a part of his character for most of the show up until then and doesn't really come across in the rest of s6/7.

what you said about Bashir isn't a way I'd thought about his character before but it seems apt.
there's never an explicit moment of him openly addressing that existential question (unlike the final scene of FBTS with Sisko straight up saying "but what if we are the dream" to Kira). but I can see it now timing into his analytical and awkward outsider traits, and how he loved to play a role in holodeck fiction.

so while you said he was closest to realising he's fiction, my first thought was "but Sisko had that big moment of stating that question aloud surely that's closer".
but since Sisko rejects the idea and it doesn't inform his whole character it's not really close is it.

I'm definitely babbling now. kinds of grasping at the idea of what I meant to say but not quite getting it straight.


also it's been years since I've watch FTBS and think I might stick it on tonight. it's good TV.

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


Cerv posted:

so FBTS has a very explicit on the nose take on it with the character of Sisko being confronted with the idea that he and everything in his life are a work of fiction. so he has this big experience of that existential woe you mention but it comes and goes wrapped up in 45 minutes. although it would be revisited to less success in one later s7 episode I forget the name of and briefly in What You Leave Behind, it wasn't a part of his character for most of the show up until then and doesn't really come across in the rest of s6/7.

what you said about Bashir isn't a way I'd thought about his character before but it seems apt.
there's never an explicit moment of him openly addressing that existential question (unlike the final scene of FBTS with Sisko straight up saying "but what if we are the dream" to Kira). but I can see it now timing into his analytical and awkward outsider traits, and how he loved to play a role in holodeck fiction.

so while you said he was closest to realising he's fiction, my first thought was "but Sisko had that big moment of stating that question aloud surely that's closer".
but since Sisko rejects the idea and it doesn't inform his whole character it's not really close is it.

I'm definitely babbling now. kinds of grasping at the idea of what I meant to say but not quite getting it straight.


also it's been years since I've watch FTBS and think I might stick it on tonight. it's good TV.

I know what you mean when you talk about grasping for adequate expression. I guess a difference is that Sisko starts & ends as an “insider”. He’s been damaged by events in his life before the events of the show and he ultimately accepts this... I dunno, contract of fate being offered by the prophets, but at all times he’s integrated enough into his world to lose himself in the sense of belonging to the thing he’s part of. He can always plausibly deny fully accepting his instrumentality; his arc vis a vis the prophets is an extended negotiation over the terms of their partnership.

Bashir, by dint of needing to hide his origins since childhood and the emotional/intellectual effect of being who he is, always remains on the periphery of the narrative he exists in and has always borne the assurance that he is a commodity made by others to achieve a goal, minus the protections that a similar character, Data, has as a being lacking emotion and possessing a publicly known and accepted identity as a lovable curiosity. His arc is one of making inroads from the outside to the inside; the distracting sense of belonging to a moment that is natural to Sisko is a prize to be won for Bashir.

I dunno. This is all just off the cuff thinking so I dont know if it has legs.

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."



Tulip posted:

It was extremely funny to me that they felt so low in their confidence about having an out queer character that it was couched as like, a sub-component of an extremely ~wild and crazy~ alien lifecycle instead of just like, incredibly mundane.

Yep. I'm also struggling to think of a non-heternormative relationship (for the current host) of either Jadzia's or Kurzon's. Hell, even Odo, who comes from a race for which sexual dimorphism is meaningless, only hooks up with femme-presenting aliens.

Considering how deep the show goes into racial and (heteronormative) gender equality, the tiptoeing around queerness kinda sticks out in a modern rewatching.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


I mean, there was the one that prompted the whole discussion with Jadzia, where she was 100% ready to go off with her previous host's ex-wife and the gender wasn't the issue for anyone involved, it was the fact that she was the ex of a previous host.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Yep. I'm also struggling to think of a non-heternormative relationship (for the current host) of either Jadzia's or Kurzon's. Hell, even Odo, who comes from a race for which sexual dimorphism is meaningless, only hooks up with femme-presenting aliens.

That depends on how you interpret him having goo intercourse with other changelings, because he does have that form of interaction with a male presenting changeling.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Polaron posted:

I mean, there was the one that prompted the whole discussion with Jadzia, where she was 100% ready to go off with her previous host's ex-wife and the gender wasn't the issue for anyone involved, it was the fact that she was the ex of a previous host.

Jadzia also tells Pel to try to make a pass at Quark before she knows that Pel is female (and expresses surprise when she finds out that Pel is female).

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 36 days!


Lead out in cuffs posted:

Yep. I'm also struggling to think of a non-heternormative relationship (for the current host) of either Jadzia's or Kurzon's. Hell, even Odo, who comes from a race for which sexual dimorphism is meaningless, only hooks up with femme-presenting aliens.

Considering how deep the show goes into racial and (heteronormative) gender equality, the tiptoeing around queerness kinda sticks out in a modern rewatching.

Wasn't one of Dax's former host's wives in one of the episodes in like S3?

I mean, you can get into the male gazeyess of the only queer relationship being a (very brief) lesbian one but it was there.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 36 days!


I'll be honest and say that the whole "former hosts" thing (and the cortical stacks thing in A Memory Called Empire) is as gently caress for me, sexually and cognitively?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Schadenboner posted:

I'll be honest and say that the whole "former hosts" thing (and the cortical stacks thing in A Memory Called Empire) is as gently caress for me, sexually and cognitively?

Once we learn Curzon was lusting after Jadzia and nearly ruined her life over it until he manipulated events (without her knowledge of either aspect) to get access to her body via the Dax organism, ......... good work Star Trek

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."



Pick posted:

That depends on how you interpret him having goo intercourse with other changelings, because he does have that form of interaction with a male presenting changeling.


Schadenboner posted:

Wasn't one of Dax's former host's wives in one of the episodes in like S3?

I mean, you can get into the male gazeyess of the only queer relationship being a (very brief) lesbian one but it was there.

Thanks, I'd forgotten about these.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Might just be my interpretation but I feel the Sisko - Benny Russel thing is treated more as almost paradoxical, that both characters inform each other from Sisko's POV rather than Sisko realising he's a dream of a 20th century science fiction writer. (Since the metatext is that Benny Russel and his supporting cast are based on the characters of DS9 and all) Also the second Benny Russel thing might be a false vision.

One of the key things is that the Prophets don't exist in linear time, and Sisko, the Emissary, has a very ambiguous role, given the pilot has him explain to them the concept of linear time because they have a legitimately hard time understanding it. The Prophets show some development later, like when Quark negotiates with them to restore Grand Nagus Zek to normal. (Which honestly should be considered one of Quark's most impressive deeds by both Ferengi and Federation standards, literally bargaining with gods) And some implications they may not exist in just one dimension either. This makes Benny Russel's whole existence even more metafictional- as Sisko says, he is the dreamer, and also the dream.


Pick posted:

That depends on how you interpret him having goo intercourse with other changelings, because he does have that form of interaction with a male presenting changeling.

It's definitely shown to be an extremely intimate experience. They specifically point out that Odo and the Founder have actual normal sex later on in the show and she seems basically 'Well, that was a thing' about it. Reminds me a bit of fusion in Steven Universe, where it can be a metaphor for various types of relationships but isn't strictly one thing or necessarily everything it's presented as subtextually every time.

mysterious frankie posted:

I know what you mean when you talk about grasping for adequate expression. I guess a difference is that Sisko starts & ends as an “insider”. He’s been damaged by events in his life before the events of the show and he ultimately accepts this... I dunno, contract of fate being offered by the prophets, but at all times he’s integrated enough into his world to lose himself in the sense of belonging to the thing he’s part of. He can always plausibly deny fully accepting his instrumentality; his arc vis a vis the prophets is an extended negotiation over the terms of their partnership.

Bashir, by dint of needing to hide his origins since childhood and the emotional/intellectual effect of being who he is, always remains on the periphery of the narrative he exists in and has always borne the assurance that he is a commodity made by others to achieve a goal, minus the protections that a similar character, Data, has as a being lacking emotion and possessing a publicly known and accepted identity as a lovable curiosity. His arc is one of making inroads from the outside to the inside; the distracting sense of belonging to a moment that is natural to Sisko is a prize to be won for Bashir.

I dunno. This is all just off the cuff thinking so I dont know if it has legs.

The whole liminal state of being between or outside cultures and attached to them but not fully a part of them is definitely a big theme in DS9; Sisko comes to accept himself as a part of Bajor's culture and society but not at all at the expense of his human cultural roots. (Might help that implicitly he sympathises and identifies a lot with the Bajorans specifically because of those roots) And I think you're on the right track that basically the whole show is him negotiating the terms of his relationship with the Prophets, again with some interesting subtext specifically because of how the Prophets work, that what they do and the decisions they make aren't necessarily made in a linear order.

And that does put Bashir's interaction with Data (in his TNG cameo) in a new light- that Bashir is impressed that Data's design incorporates aspects that mimic humanity with his android functions. That they're both creations, but Data is openly so, and he's been able to involve others in his public quest for self-actualisation.

Woebin
Feb 6, 2006





I always had the feeling that many of the people working on DS9 wanted to go more explicitly queer but that someone higher up wouldn't allow it. I blame Rick Berman.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Woebin posted:

I always had the feeling that many of the people working on DS9 wanted to go more explicitly queer but that someone higher up wouldn't allow it. I blame Rick Berman.

That's easy to do, although it would certainly have been more than one person. That said, gently caress Rick Berman very much. However, I strongly contend that it is bigoted to assume that a character is automatically canonically straight unless you see them engaging in explicit homosexual activity. It's like saying that if an anonymous writer in a story isn't explicitly female, by default they are canonically male. (Or that assumption about posters!) There are certainly some where I think the burden of proof would be higher or that you might credibly feel that it's not what the author was going for, but where the burden of proof has been set I think it's indicative of a belief that LGBT behavior is incredibly abnormal. Where it isn't particularly.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I mean, some historians still contend Frederick the Great wasn't gay. The guy who wrote, "Fortune has it in for me; she is a woman, and I am not that way inclined."

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



You guys are discussing non-het leanings in DS9, and no one has mentioned Keiko's complete willingness to marry Kira?

Tsaedje
May 11, 2007

ASK ME ABOUT BEING A JOYLESS CURMUDGEON WHO CANNOT ENJOY LIFE'S SIMPLY PLEASURES LIKE EATING AN ICE CREAM WHILST HAVING A SHIT


Pretty sure Odo linked with Laas who definitely presented as male, that's about as close as it gets.

Laas then most likely died offscreen from the disease Odo unwittingly passed onto him in the process, which is a bit of an uncomfortable parallel to gay panic/AIDS crisis stuff

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




AlternateNu posted:

You guys are discussing non-het leanings in DS9, and no one has mentioned Keiko's complete willingness to marry Kira?

Keiko does almost seem like she was angling for a triad for a while there

I love the bit where Miles and Kira talk with growing, visible horror about how secluded and romantic their destination is

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


This all reminds me that DS9 was just a soap opera with Star Trek skin.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

This all reminds me that DS9 was just a soap opera with Star Trek skin.

y

Royal Updog
Sep 26, 2019

Do you ever wonder if there are other planets out there
(source)

all the fancy shows now are soap operas with more expensive cinematography. except fargo, which is a straight up fan-fic

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




oh but seriously I posted:

all the fancy shows now are soap operas with more expensive cinematography. except fargo, which is a straight up fan-fic

David Lynch was right: soap operas rule.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







Tulip posted:

It was extremely funny to me that they felt so low in their confidence about having an out queer character that it was couched as like, a sub-component of an extremely ~wild and crazy~ alien lifecycle instead of just like, incredibly mundane.

And they still caught a bunch of poo poo for it because of the kiss, so.

Two Owls
Sep 17, 2016

Yeah, count me in



Jeez, I only just realized Vic Fontaine was one of the blokes from The Time Tunnel

blatman
May 9, 2009

14 inc dont mez



this talk about queer trek got me thinking, so there was that one episode where quark teams up with a woman pretending to be a man so her horribly sexist society will take her seriously right, and her entire gender change outfit is fake ears and pants, why does lobe size not scale up with wealth due to the availability of expensive lobe augmentation surgery

if humans could get big high-tech dongers that actually functioned right then every short-sighted rich guy would be packing a 14 incher and ferengi are basically cartoon capitalists so this seems like it should be canon

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Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




blatman posted:

this talk about queer trek got me thinking, so there was that one episode where quark teams up with a woman pretending to be a man so her horribly sexist society will take her seriously right, and her entire gender change outfit is fake ears and pants, why does lobe size not scale up with wealth due to the availability of expensive lobe augmentation surgery

if humans could get big high-tech dongers that actually functioned right then every short-sighted rich guy would be packing a 14 incher and ferengi are basically cartoon capitalists so this seems like it should be canon

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