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Admiralty Flag
Jun 7, 2007

I do not wish to create joinder with your stank ass



Slippery Tilde


Depends on whether the police negotiator threw in the Blaupunkt

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Khizan
Jul 30, 2013




McSpanky posted:

Even putting aside the real-world parallels, the ISDs are clearly designed to enforce control over conquered peoples via terror and rapid deployment, their jack-of-all-trades carrier/troop transport/cruiser design is great for suppressive police actions but terrible for prosecuting actual war.

Yeah, the Star Destroyer is an autonomous small scale rebellion suppressor. Troop carrier to suppress the population, fighter carrier to police the local space, tough enough to slug it out with any non-capital ship and come out on top, and with enough endurance to keep that up until resistance crumbles. Not so good at pure warfighting, but they don't really need pure warfighting ships.

That said, I'm pretty sure the optimal warfighting ship for Star Wars is just going to be a starfighter carrier because starfighters are overpowered as gently caress.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




Admiralty Flag posted:

I'm the Mass Effect Citadel, the product of an incredibly old and technologically advanced race

They knew how to build Mass Relays, but faster-than-walking-pace elevators eluded them

socializing in elevators was important to their culture

they never imagined other peoples being forced by chance to adopt this practice

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jul 6, 2020

SidneyIsTheKiller
Jul 16, 2019

She's delusional,
"where's god", etc.
Completely suicidal.
One day she snaps.
She wants to kill herself
but she realizes that
teen suicide is out this year
and homicide is a much healthier therapeutic expression.


Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

The starship's databanks were altered to phony up the photon torpedo launches, and presumably also to erase the transporter logs of Burke and Samno beaming onto Kronos One and assassinating Gorkon; it's trivial to assume that the flight recorder was tampered with as well.

This is true, but something about the way it's never one even mentioned feels like the writers either forgot about or didn't want the audience to think about the Enterprise's library of Instant Cassettes.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Lemniscate Blue posted:

This always struck me as missing something incredibly obvious - in Star Trek one of the most likely causes of equipment failure is intentional damage. If someone is trying to gently caress up your poo poo, whether by sabotage or weapons fire, it pays off to make it as difficult as possible to actually take a system offline.

You'd think a society as militaristic as the Cardassians would get that.

I missed this bit and it's a good point, but then again it also completely makes sense that the style-over-substance fascist Cardassians would neglect the basics like that, especially since they're a patriarchal society that leaves engineering to women.

The Cardassians actually don't have any particular signature military technological advantage compared to other Star Trek races- they don't have cloaking devices like the Klingons and Romulans, singularity drives or close-combat prowess, invisible shock troops like the Jem'Hadar or the zombie plague of the Borg, they just rely on lots of battleships. Might be why the original Defiant gets blindsided when the newly joined up Breen turn out to have devastating space-EMP/ion weapons.

SidneyIsTheKiller posted:

This is true, but something about the way it's never one even mentioned feels like the writers either forgot about or didn't want the audience to think about the Enterprise's library of Instant Cassettes.

I just figure it's that it turns out data tape technology was able to be improved in incredible future ways, like if you took someone from the 70s to the 90s and showed them how cassette tapes had been superceded by smaller records that can hold exponentially more data.

Worf
Sep 12, 2017




The Cardassian's advantage is their willingness to do whatever it takes. Whatever the cost.


Dukat didn't want to bang Kira's mom, but he knew he had to to win the war.

SidneyIsTheKiller
Jul 16, 2019

She's delusional,
"where's god", etc.
Completely suicidal.
One day she snaps.
She wants to kill herself
but she realizes that
teen suicide is out this year
and homicide is a much healthier therapeutic expression.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

I just figure it's that it turns out data tape technology was able to be improved in incredible future ways, like if you took someone from the 70s to the 90s and showed them how cassette tapes had been superceded by smaller records that can hold exponentially more data.

Yeah, we're getting to a point where cell phone vids are going to start looking as good as Ridley Scott films and it genuinely makes me wonder how that'll effect the way we look at the past.

SidneyIsTheKiller
Jul 16, 2019

She's delusional,
"where's god", etc.
Completely suicidal.
One day she snaps.
She wants to kill herself
but she realizes that
teen suicide is out this year
and homicide is a much healthier therapeutic expression.


GD_American posted:

I like how the ultimate collective hive mind decided it needed a sexy queen torso to sex up Picard and get him back

This is from way back in the thread, but I unironically agree. I think it goes underappreciated what First Contact and the appearance of the Borg Queen suggests about them: that the Borg (singular) is starting to crack from its social isolation. It's why they go back in time to stop the federation from forming: if the Borg wanted to they could conquer the federation with just two ships, but they target first contact out of resentment - the Federation is a group of friends. It's why the Borg queen is characterized by being seductive, vain, and insecure (note how easily offended she is).

It's a neat way to have 'character development' for what otherwise are (admitttedly badass) cyber space zombies. It's also a more genuine philosophical argument against a collective than the series usually makes (while definitely entertaining, it's a bit of a thematic cheat that becoming a borg is such an obviously horrific experience for reasons that don't necessarily have to do with the concept of a collective itself).

1000 Brown M and Ms
Oct 22, 2008

F:\DL>quickfli 4-clowns.fli

Ghost Leviathan posted:

I missed this bit and it's a good point, but then again it also completely makes sense that the style-over-substance fascist Cardassians would neglect the basics like that, especially since they're a patriarchal society that leaves engineering to women.

The Cardassians actually don't have any particular signature military technological advantage compared to other Star Trek races- they don't have cloaking devices like the Klingons and Romulans, singularity drives or close-combat prowess, invisible shock troops like the Jem'Hadar or the zombie plague of the Borg, they just rely on lots of battleships. Might be why the original Defiant gets blindsided when the newly joined up Breen turn out to have devastating space-EMP/ion weapons.

Was that ever mentioned in the shows? Admittedly it's been a while since I've watched DS9 but I thought Cardassians had cloaking devices. Of course, I could be confusing that with Star Trek Armada in which the Cardassians definitely had cloaks.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




1000 Brown M and Ms posted:

Was that ever mentioned in the shows? Admittedly it's been a while since I've watched DS9 but I thought Cardassians had cloaking devices. Of course, I could be confusing that with Star Trek Armada in which the Cardassians definitely had cloaks.

It's a plot point than the Cardassians get cloaking tech from the Romulans in I think S3

blatman
May 9, 2009

14 inc dont mez



Statutory Ape posted:

The Cardassian's advantage is their willingness to do whatever it takes. Whatever the cost.


Dukat didn't want to bang Kira's mom, but he knew he had to to win the war.

more importantly, he had to call her at 3AM to tell her about how much he was bangin' her mom

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005








Tulip posted:

It's a plot point than the Cardassians get cloaking tech from the Romulans in I think S3

That was only the Obsidian Order's task force during their joint operation with the Tal'Shiar to wipe out the Founders, we never saw the Cardassians use cloaks after that. (dunno why we're spoiling this but ok)

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


Cloaking technology seems to actually suck. Anytime someone on a Star Fleet ship *really* needs to come up with a way to detect a cloaked ship they mumble some technobabble and next thing you know a torpedo slams into an cloaked warbird.

Worf
Sep 12, 2017




cloaking technology is hilarious. klingons are obsessed with honor but then fly invisible ships and jump you with a loving squadron

~ * real badass

Worf
Sep 12, 2017




conversely, the mighty ferengi were known to stand up to the flagship of the federation. no cloak. one on one.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Statutory Ape posted:

cloaking technology is hilarious. klingons are obsessed with honor but then fly invisible ships and jump you with a loving squadron

~ * real badass

Big part of klingon honour is that ultimately it goes out the window if they really want to win

I think cloaking is meant to be more like silent running. The point isn't to be completely undetectable at all times, and that you can spot a cloaked ship if you know what to look for makes sense- it's meant to be used for surprise attacks and getting past people who aren't actively scanning. Especially since I imagine cloaking devices are being worked on and improved as much as any other tech, so what technobabble you used to see through it before might not work again.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



"Honor" is kind of an arbitrary thing, because if you actually had rules against slaughtering the helpless that you stuck to, you could never form an empire in the first place. The only honorable way to fight is to attack enemies that are stronger than you, and then spare all orphans.

Klingons cloak because at some point a script planned for the Romulans swapped in Klingons instead, and ever since, the Romulans never really could distinguish themselves because every attempt to define them got traded off to another species.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Literally, what are Romulans supposed to be? They're like bad Vulcans?

I never "did" TOS and only half-remember TNG?

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



They're bad Vulkans.

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


Why does it seem like every other empire in Trek has gigantic gently caress off ships compared to the Federation?

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



SlothfulCobra posted:

Klingons cloak because at some point a script planned for the Romulans swapped in Klingons instead, and ever since, the Romulans never really could distinguish themselves because every attempt to define them got traded off to another species.
Well the Romulans did carve out a niche as "explicitly deceitful" but it's a very flimsy hat even in a franchise full of flimsy hats.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


FWIW I think Quark is right about how the Fedies dislike the Ferengi because they remind them of what they were (but notably without genocide).

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


In Trek every species considers the other extremely "arrogant". It's something that is repeated throughout every series. Humans and Vulcans consider each other arrogant. Romulans consider humans arrogant. Klingons consider humans arrogant. Cardassians consider humans arrogant even though they're like the most arrogant motherfuckers in the galaxy.

Actually maybe they all just think humans are arrogant.

GD_American
Jul 21, 2004

427 TOTALLY LEGITIMATE, DEFENSIBLE NATIONAL TITLES AND COUNTING


My favorite bits of any Star Trek is when aliens point out hypocritical behavior on the Federation and humanity's part.

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Why does it seem like every other empire in Trek has gigantic gently caress off ships compared to the Federation?

Real answer: It looks more imposing on-screen

Treknobabble answer: The Federation is really loving good at efficient, miniaturized technology so their ships don't need to be as big to get comparable performance.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Schadenboner posted:

Literally, what are Romulans supposed to be? They're like bad Vulcans?

I never "did" TOS and only half-remember TNG?

The Romulans were one of the earlier episodes where they were established as having fought a war with the Federation in the old bygone days of space travel, after which they had an uneasy peace with them ever since that could vanish at any moment. There was also the whole mystery element where apparently they were a lost colony of Vulcans, meaning that the Vulcans have all this forgotten history that would then never get explored ever.

The Klingons wound up taking their place as the cold war analogue in the movies though, because I guess they got more recognition from their actual onscreen war that they had with the Federation in their first episode. The Romulans took back the role in TNG, but between there being some weird rule against bringing back original series aliens and the cold war being over, that didn't get far. There was a whole thing where the Romulans were supposed to be the Klingons' most hated enemy mucking in Klingon politics, but that wound up being superfluous because the Klingons hate everybody. The most charismatic Romulan in TNG got a job on Babylon 5 playing a character with a similar antagonistic setup but a lot more depth.

Eventually TNG decided that they wanted to a long-term cold war narrative with some species on the Federation's frontier, so instead of using the Romulans who had that whole bit, they invented the Cardassians and wrote that they had a recent offscreen war with the Federation (the Federation technically lost, but nobody talks about that) that O'Brien was a veteran of. Instantly more depth and personality than the Romulans, and to add insult to injury, the first Cardassian actor who wound up defining the species was the first Romulan actor on TNG, Marc Aleimo.

Then the Romulans didn't do much during DS9 (even tho they made a pretty nice meme) while the Dominion pulled off more success with mucking with Klingon politics than they ever did. Something weird happened in one of the TNG movies and then came along JJ Abrams and their planet died, which meant very little relevance for Romulans thereafter. Which I feel like that resembles how in one of the movies the Klingons got their demise predicted after their moon went Chernobyl.

It's a cross between other aliens kept on being more interesting and since the Romulans were such a big important thing, no writers felt comfortable adding their own weird new details until it was too late.

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Why does it seem like every other empire in Trek has gigantic gently caress off ships compared to the Federation?

I don't know what you're talking about, pretty much every alien ship is about the same size as the Enterprise because working with an actual size disparity is a more complicated and expensive effect.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


I like the Cardies. They're cute :3:.

DS9 followed through with the insanity of their legal system a lot further than I was expecting them to with O'Brien's trial.

Like, I expected it to be a lot shorter?

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


SlothfulCobra posted:

I don't know what you're talking about, pretty much every alien ship is about the same size as the Enterprise because working with an actual size disparity is a more complicated and expensive effect.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011



Well that looks like another case of whoever writes down the stats for sci fi ship size is just talking out of their rear end, because every time they're on the screen at the same time, they're about the same size.



I don't know how much of that volume translates to systems/engines/crew space/empty space/elevators, but I've never really understood the spatial relationship between any of the sets and the models. Star Trek makes a lot of bold decisions with its ship designs and then never really tries justifying any of them.

Admiralty Flag
Jun 7, 2007

I do not wish to create joinder with your stank ass



Slippery Tilde

Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Why does it seem like every other empire in Trek has gigantic gently caress off ships compared to the Federation?

Because the Federation saves tons of space by not installing circuit breakers on electronics

Animal-Mother
Feb 14, 2012

RABBIT RABBIT
RABBIT RABBIT


Every species in Star Trek has a gentleman's agreement to align their ships the same way upon meeting so that things aren't, you know, a bit awkward.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006




SlothfulCobra posted:

"Honor" is kind of an arbitrary thing, because if you actually had rules against slaughtering the helpless that you stuck to, you could never form an empire in the first place. The only honorable way to fight is to attack enemies that are stronger than you, and then spare all orphans.

Klingons cloak because at some point a script planned for the Romulans swapped in Klingons instead, and ever since, the Romulans never really could distinguish themselves because every attempt to define them got traded off to another species.

debt: the first 10k years had a good explanation of honour: it's surplus dignity extracted from your victims

Voting Floater
May 19, 2019



It's only a handful of Klingons that use honour in the sense of gallantry. Most of the time, it's really more about face: not looking like a coward, not doing specific things that society says are dishonourable, not bringing shame to your family etc.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Voting Floater posted:

It's only a handful of Klingons that use honour in the sense of gallantry. Most of the time, it's really more about face: not looking like a coward, not doing specific things that society says are dishonourable, not bringing shame to your family etc.

This is very fitting in that there's a loose Japanese samurai as well as viking and soviet feel to the Klingons. Especially with the running theme that too many Klingons, especially Worf, are more concerned with saving face than sticking to their ideals and looking at the big picture.

Worf
Sep 12, 2017




Polaron posted:

Real answer: It looks more imposing on-screen

Treknobabble answer: The Federation is really loving good at efficient, miniaturized technology so their ships don't need to be as big to get comparable performance.

My hours in galciv2 give me the second answer

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Polaron posted:

really loving good at efficient, miniaturized technology so their ships don't need to be as big to get comparable performance.

Yeah, I tell myself that too.

:sigh:

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Aren't bedrooms supposed to have more than one point of egress for, like, fire code?

If so every set of quarters on DS9 appears to be noncompliant (space windows aren't creditable points of egress because of that whole "Hard Vacuum" thing)?

:ohdear:

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


Schadenboner posted:

Aren't bedrooms supposed to have more than one point of egress for, like, fire code?

If so every set of quarters on DS9 appears to be noncompliant (space windows aren't creditable points of egress because of that whole "Hard Vacuum" thing)?

:ohdear:

The other point of egress is the transporter.

Impossibly Perfect Sphere
Nov 6, 2002


And we know the transporters world NEVER fail during a fire.

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movax
Aug 30, 2008



Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:

Cloaking technology seems to actually suck. Anytime someone on a Star Fleet ship *really* needs to come up with a way to detect a cloaked ship they mumble some technobabble and next thing you know a torpedo slams into an cloaked warbird.

I still think the dumber thing was the Federation signing a treaty that banned them from any cloaking technology.

Except when a rogue admiral needed it.

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