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koolkal
Oct 21, 2008

this thread maybe doesnt have room for 2 green xbox one avs
Death to America, in the form of a new constitutional convention

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BRJurgis
Aug 15, 2007

Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...
I've been getting pretty loud recently out in real life about "democracy and free speech", things that are waved in front of me when people feel I'm being too critical of America.

I've been getting louder still (regarding Israel and Palestine). It's clear I cannot "vote" about this because both parties will unquestioningly support Israel. And my free speech amounts to people "not wanting to focus on that upsetting stuff", or even "talking about it is just going to make people stop listening / drive them the opposite direction".

Folks don't seem to want to even entertain they have a responsibility to demand better. The suggestion offends.

So maybe that's what "death to america" really means. If the most powerful nation to ever exist cannot do right, cannot stop objectively being bad for continued life on Earth, it should cease to be. If a critical mass of its people cannot use their privilege (such as free speech and voting) to make it better, we all reap what we've sowed. It's not about punishing us (as entitled short sighted and selfish as we may be), we simply should never have had this in the first place. Is the cost of this stopping greater than the cost of it continuing?


Edit* do better or we will tear this down with no regards for ourselves. It's not new and it doesn't require religious extremism or nationalism. Just conviction that a better world is worth fighting for, is bigger than oneself.

BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Nov 18, 2023

Ogmius815
Aug 25, 2005
centrism is a hell of a drug

It’s weird how none of the lefty slogans apparently mean what they say.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

BUUNNI posted:

By disallowing weapons of wars to be used freely abroad and domestically you would have dealt a lethal blow to the conception of the modern US hegemony. That plus more sustainable methods of economic production would be sufficient to change America into something that no longer resembles what we currently have.

Keeping America “alive” without killing massive amounts of children in schools here and abroad and also destroying the Earth’s climate system is a tough nut to crack for sure.

E: Wait are you claiming that the only way to stop children from dying in schools is to overthrow the government thereby killing more children that rely on, erm, “government programs”? I’m confused about the part that you added afterwards.

It's fairly reasonable to assume that when you say "death to America", you mean the destruction of the US government or the American people. If what you meant to say was "America should ban guns", then you should have just said that in the first place. No one is going to interpret "death to America" to mean "America is going to ban guns". Clarity of communication is important in D&D, and that means using the terminology people already understand, rather than going out of your way to use unusual interpretations with novel wording.

Josef bugman posted:

So is Semper Fi and other mottos from the armed forces off the menu as well? Wouldn't mind that tbh, but wanted to clarify.

Alongside that, but are people here identifying with the nation state so strongly that you think that death to it would mean death to you?

The destruction of the national government, loss of the monopoly on violence, and resulting civil disorder generally isn't very good for the safety and well-being of disadvantaged and marginalized people. Not so great for socially reclusive computer touchers either. That's particularly true south of the Mason-Dixon line.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

It's fairly reasonable to assume that when you say "death to America", you mean the destruction of the US government or the American people.

The American people are already being destroyed by their own government and their own nation's rotten ideology, evidently.

quote:

The destruction of the national government, loss of the monopoly on violence, and resulting civil disorder generally isn't very good for the safety and well-being of disadvantaged and marginalized people.

Do you really believe that the US cares about the lives of marginalized peoples?

Would anyone complain and be uncomfortable about the usage and history of the phrase "God Bless America" despite the amount of misery and death we export to the places already suffering from centuries of colonialism?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Nov 18, 2023

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 21, 2006




BRJurgis posted:

So maybe that's what "death to america" really means. If the most powerful nation to ever exist cannot do right, cannot stop objectively being bad for continued life on Earth, it should cease to be. If a critical mass of its people cannot use their privilege (such as free speech and voting) to make it better, we all reap what we've sowed. It's not about punishing us (as entitled short sighted and selfish as we may be), we simply should never have had this in the first place. Is the cost of this stopping greater than the cost of it continuing?


Edit* do better or we will tear this down with no regards for ourselves. It's not new and it doesn't require religious extremism or nationalism. Just conviction that a better world is worth fighting for, is bigger than oneself.

I’ve got bad news for you;

“Individual men may be moral in the sense that they are able to consider interests other than their own in determining problems of conduct, and are capable, on occasion, of preferring the advantages of others to their own. They are endowed by nature with a measure of sympathy and consideration for their kind, the breadth of which may be extended by an astute social pedagogy. Their rational faculty prompts them to a sense of justice which educational discipline may refine and purge of egoistic elements until they are able to view a social situation, in which their own interests are involved, with a fair measure of objectivity. But all these achievements are more difficult, if not impossible, for human societies and social groups. In every human group there is less reason to guide and to check impulse, less capacity for self-transcendence, less ability to comprehend the needs of others and therefore more unrestrained egoism than the individuals, who compose the group, reveal in their personal relationships.”

Stabbey_the_Clown
Sep 21, 2002

Are... are you quite sure you really want to say that?
Taco Defender

BUUNNI posted:

The American people are already being destroyed by their own government and their own nation's rotten ideology, evidently.

Do you really believe that the US cares about the lives of marginalized peoples?

Do you think the collapse of government and the loss of the government's monopoly on force - since that was the context of Main Painframe's statements which you're arguing against - will decrease the number of deaths and improve the lives of marginalized people?

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Stabbey_the_Clown posted:

Do you think the collapse of government and the loss of the government's monopoly on force - since that was the context of Main Painframe's statements which you're arguing against - will decrease the number of deaths and improve the lives of marginalized people?

Again, the binary between "dystopian society where mass shootings in schools are a common occurrence" and "Mogadishu but with American flag pickup trucks" isn't particularly useful in this case.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

BUUNNI posted:

I think since guns and the military are one of the defining features of the state so ending the manufacture and trade of them would probably transform America. But if you have some other metric or defining feature then ok.

Also I don’t think that gun violence, mass shootings and war are very sustainable so I imagine we’re pretty likely to end up getting the same outcome whether we transform America or not.

"Transform America" and "death to America" are different phrases that mean different things. If you meant that America should be transformed, you should have said that in the first place.

BUUNNI posted:

The American people are already being destroyed by their own government and their own nation's rotten ideology, evidently.

Do you really believe that the US cares about the lives of marginalized peoples?

That's not what I said. I said that "The destruction of the national government, loss of the monopoly on violence, and resulting civil disorder generally isn't very good for the safety and well-being of disadvantaged and marginalized people". I'd rather not remove any checks on the power of local police and chud militias!

BRJurgis
Aug 15, 2007

Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

Bar Ran Dun posted:

I’ve got bad news for you;

“Individual men may be moral in the sense that they are able to consider interests other than their own in determining problems of conduct, and are capable, on occasion, of preferring the advantages of others to their own. They are endowed by nature with a measure of sympathy and consideration for their kind, the breadth of which may be extended by an astute social pedagogy. Their rational faculty prompts them to a sense of justice which educational discipline may refine and purge of egoistic elements until they are able to view a social situation, in which their own interests are involved, with a fair measure of objectivity. But all these achievements are more difficult, if not impossible, for human societies and social groups. In every human group there is less reason to guide and to check impulse, less capacity for self-transcendence, less ability to comprehend the needs of others and therefore more unrestrained egoism than the individuals, who compose the group, reveal in their personal relationships.”

You saw my posts in the Loki thread. "Better things aren't possible"* is not a defense against doing what's right. If we cannot do better, I'd bust us right back to small groups banding together out of intuitive collective interest, even if it risked ending up right back here some day.

"Facts don't change mind, stories do" has been bouncing around- well we can't become the God of stories. But to borrow from another story, is it wrong to hit a space fascist with a brick, even if it means many of the people around you will be cut down by lasers?

*I mean this as a good faith interpretation of your post, not an egregious strawman.

Edit: if we're not willing to risk it all, to threaten the existence of these structures despite our personal reliance on then, how could they ever improve? We've build them far too big, we never should have won this game.

BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Nov 18, 2023

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 21, 2006




All groups, all societies, are immoral. It is neither peculiar to the United States, nor exceptional with-in the United States.

It’s facile political thinking to pretend the immorality of all societies is unique to ours.

We can and should try, endlessly try, to make it better and by direct action, by meeting power with power.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010


If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER


Ultra Carp
Personally, I like America.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

"Transform America" and "death to America" are different phrases that mean different things. If you meant that America should be transformed, you should have said that in the first place.


We have discussed at length how transforming America in such a way would be equivalent to killing it in the eyes of the kinds of people that collect guns and fantasize about committing acts of violence, so I'm not sure why you're claiming there are no such discussions to be found anywhere. The term "death to america" is obviously borrowed from Islamic and more specifically Iranian cultural reactions to the horrific poo poo the US perpetrates to Middle Eastern countries and I believe it's fitting because it evidently works well as a contrapositive to "God Bless America".

Main Paineframe posted:

I'd rather not remove any checks on the power of local police and chud militias!

From where do you think the chud militias and fascist police forces get their power from?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 21, 2006




BRJurgis posted:

"Facts don't change mind, stories do" has been bouncing around- well we can't become the God of stories.

Class analysis is understanding our stories.
Loving one’s neighbors is understanding a story.
Myths of origin like national myths are stories that political groups fight to draw support from.

Understanding the stories of the different parts of our society is to how to know how to shape direct action. If there is a hope for progress, myth and story are the essential tools to working towards it.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

BUUNNI posted:

We have discussed at length how transforming America in such a way would be equivalent to killing it in the eyes of the kinds of people that collect guns and fantasize about committing acts of violence, so I'm not sure why you're claiming there are no such discussions to be found anywhere. The term "death to america" is obviously borrowed from Islamic and more specifically Iranian cultural reactions to the horrific poo poo the US perpetrates to Middle Eastern countries and I believe it's fitting because it evidently works well as a contrapositive to "God Bless America".

From where do you think the chud militias and fascist police forces get their power from?

No, sorry, this "transforming America = killing America" poo poo is just sophistry. You're inventing bizarre and novel interpretations of words and phrases, and none of us are obligated to play along with that.

The chud militias and local police (which is what I originally said) get their power from being organized bodies of men with guns. Most of the time, their power is substantially restrained by the federal government, which possesses the monopoly on violence and is able to heavily limit their activities to a defined range that's considered generally acceptable. But we've seen what happens when civil governance breaks down and the chud militias are turned loose with no checks on their ability to use violence, and it ain't pretty for marginalized folks.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Main Paineframe posted:

No, sorry, this "transforming America = killing America" poo poo is just sophistry. You're inventing bizarre and novel interpretations of words and phrases, and none of us are obligated to play along with that.

That’s certainly your interpretation of it but I’m pretty sure if you were to ask the population of American gun freaks and religious fanatics if regulating gun ownership and some degree of cultural re-education would mean that the America they know would die I think I know what most of them would answer.

quote:

The chud militias and local police (which is what I originally said) get their power from being organized bodies of men with guns. Most of the time, their power is substantially restrained by the federal government, which possesses the monopoly on violence and is able to heavily limit their activities to a defined range that's considered generally acceptable. But we've seen what happens when civil governance breaks down and the chud militias are turned loose with no checks on their ability to use violence, and it ain't pretty for marginalized folks.

You’re skirting around the question. Where do the fascist police forces and chud militias gain their political power? The answer is obvious- America itself. That the federal government sometimes steps in and fixes some things at the margins doesn’t mean that it’s also not directly responsible for their existence.

If you’re concerned about social collapse after catastrophic climatic events then I hope you realize those are becoming more common, not less. In fact, many of the western nations are preparing for massive influxes of climate refugees in a way that is very concerning.

BRJurgis
Aug 15, 2007

Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

Bar Ran Dun posted:

Class analysis is understanding our stories.
Loving one’s neighbors is understanding a story.
Myths of origin like national myths are stories that political groups fight to draw support from.

Understanding the stories of the different parts of our society is to how to know how to shape direct action. If there is a hope for progress, myth and story are the essential tools to working towards it.

I wasn't disagreeing with the sentiment, didn't wanna spoil anything by getting too specific. Meant more that the "constructive" part of that solution wasn't something materially realistic for us. The structures of stability and control were still torn down, despite the threat (hell, the promise) of anarchy and turmoil. Opening the doors of chaos, as opposed to complete control or non-existence.

Edit: hell, it was openly "We will risk this because what stands is unacceptable, and we will be willing to keep fighting to make it better to the point of self sacrifice"

I don't see why the story of "are we the baddies?" (or "death to america") isn't effective or accurate. The fact that we're too comfortable to risk exercising power only supports the conclusion. I guess you just have to tell the story right.

BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Nov 18, 2023

Kalit
Nov 6, 2006

BUUNNI posted:

That’s certainly your interpretation of it but I’m pretty sure if you were to ask the population of American gun freaks and religious fanatics if regulating gun ownership and some degree of cultural re-education would mean that the America they know would die I think I know what most of them would answer.

Why are you trying to use a definition that might be used by a fringe far right segment of the population? Unless you’re a part of that fringe segment, of course….

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 21, 2006




BUUNNI posted:

You’re skirting around the question. Where do the fascist police forces and chud militias gain their political power? The answer is obvious- America itself. That the federal government sometimes steps in and fixes some things at the margins doesn’t mean that it’s also not directly responsible for their existence.

Ceding the fight over tradition, the fight over who draws support from the national myth of origin, cedes the support that can be drawn from that myth and all the folks that participate in it.

Of course they draw from it. All groups draw from myths of origin, because those myths are about the real material sources of support in our society. Opting out of the national myth doesn’t opt one out of having to have support from a myth of origin. It merely means one participates in different myths of origin.

That’s the radical root of all this.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Kalit posted:

Why are you trying to use a definition that might be used by a fringe far right segment of the population? Unless you’re a part of that fringe segment, of course….

Because that’s the America that needs to die, OP.

Bar Ran Dun
Jan 21, 2006




BRJurgis posted:

I guess you just have to tell the story right.

Yes and get its content right: being-for-others.

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Bar Ran Dun posted:

Ceding the fight over tradition, the fight over who draws support from the national myth of origin, cedes the support that can be drawn from that myth and all the folks that participate in it.

Of course they draw from it. All groups draw from myths of origin, because those myths are about the real material sources of support in our society. Opting out of the national myth doesn’t opt one out of having to have support from a myth of origin. It merely means one participates in different myths of origin.

That’s the radical root of all this.

I don’t think black or indigenous people can pull anything useful from America’s national myth of origin but if you really want to try it then go ahead.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008

BUUNNI posted:

You’re skirting around the question. Where do the fascist police forces and chud militias gain their political power? The answer is obvious- America itself. That the federal government sometimes steps in and fixes some things at the margins doesn’t mean that it’s also not directly responsible for their existence.

So other nations that aren't America don't have problems with fascist police forces and chud militias? Think you'll have to expand your kill list OP.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

BUUNNI posted:

That’s certainly your interpretation of it but I’m pretty sure if you were to ask the population of American gun freaks and religious fanatics if regulating gun ownership and some degree of cultural re-education would mean that the America they know would die I think I know what most of them would answer.

You’re skirting around the question. Where do the fascist police forces and chud militias gain their political power? The answer is obvious- America itself. That the federal government sometimes steps in and fixes some things at the margins doesn’t mean that it’s also not directly responsible for their existence.

Who was talking about the political power of chud militias and local police forces (not sure why you keep switching out the word "local" for a different one)? Given that I am quite explicitly talking about chud militias and local police forces after the destruction of the federal government and the collapse of the monopoly on violence, it should be extremely clear that I am not talking about the federal political power of heavily-armed militias.

Whatever "the destruction of America" may mean to gun freaks and religious fanatics, the fact of the matter is that you're not talking to gun freaks and religious fanatics right now, so it doesn't make any sense to word your posts based on how you think you think they would interpret them.

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot
Imo, it's pretty easy to imagine an America that did more aggressive gun laws but is otherwise pretty much the same. It's also easy to imagine an America which turns away from foreign entanglements and/or turns against high finance, but keeps its romance with guns. God knows there's enough leftist gun enthusiasts around these days. So I think the whole argument is based on a category error - a broad critique of 'America the Institution' isn't really relevant to the lurid violence of mass shootings.

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
It is a fantastic way to derail discussions of specific avenues of gun policy reform other than “death”.

SpeakSlow
May 17, 2004
Violence Monoloply is great, but I always end up with Carvin Gardens.

Staluigi
Jun 22, 2021

thermodynamics cheated

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

So I think the whole argument is based on a category error - a broad critique of 'America the Institution' isn't really relevant to the lurid violence of mass shootings.

Its fantastically incoherent for other reasons but yeah, this too

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

WarpedLichen posted:

So other nations that aren't America don't have problems with fascist police forces and chud militias? Think you'll have to expand your kill list OP.

Can you share what specific nations you have in mind and how they compare to the US?

Main Paineframe posted:

Who was talking about the political power of chud militias and local police forces (not sure why you keep switching out the word "local" for a different one)? Given that I am quite explicitly talking about chud militias and local police forces after the destruction of the federal government and the collapse of the monopoly on violence, it should be extremely clear that I am not talking about the federal political power of heavily-armed militias.

Whatever "the destruction of America" may mean to gun freaks and religious fanatics, the fact of the matter is that you're not talking to gun freaks and religious fanatics right now, so it doesn't make any sense to word your posts based on how you think you think they would interpret them.

I'm using the term political power in the same way that Harold Lasswell uses it. This book in particular is useful to understand political power and how it is granted by modern states.

It's true that as far as I know I'm not talking to that portion of the populace but we were discussing the inability for America to disassociate itself from these elements without bringing about the total collapse of the union and whatever other apparently apocalyptic effects would come as a result of that.

VVVVVVVVVVVV

Josef bugman posted:

I mean, what things can be done? It seems more likely that there is no immediate legislative solution to gun violence in the USA.

There is also little recourse for people who, you know, don't like their tax money funding genocide year after year with no end in sight.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

BUUNNI fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Nov 18, 2023

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Discendo Vox posted:

It is a fantastic way to derail discussions of specific avenues of gun policy reform other than “death”.

I mean, what things can be done? It seems more likely that there is no immediate legislative solution to gun violence in the USA. What else is there that we can do, on these forums anyway, other than express our frustration with the state of things? Like, we've seen that there is no current means to get the Legislature or the Judiciary at a federal level to change the law on firearms so we are left with local efforts which are better suited to be discussed elsewhere.

In practicable terms the destruction of the USA as hegemon is about as likely at the moment as the passing of a bill that strictly regulates firearms.

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA
i forgot members of congress read this thread and we got to convince them

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.
This is not the “express frustration” subforum. If you want to vent, find a pillow. We do not have to share in your demand for cultivated futility.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Discendo Vox posted:

This is not the “express frustration” subforum. If you want to vent, find a pillow. We do not have to share in your demand for cultivated futility.

It is for discussion though it just happens to be a discussion of a nature that you, for whatever reason, do not like. I mean, start discussing other options if you'd prefer. What would you see as a good way to change the USA's relationship with guns for the better?

BUUNNI
Jun 23, 2023

by Pragmatica

Discendo Vox posted:

This is not the “express frustration” subforum. If you want to vent, find a pillow. We do not have to share in your demand for cultivated futility.

I guess if you contort your mind enough discussion of nearly any topic that isn't laudable could technically be considered "expressing frustration".

Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Josef bugman posted:

It is for discussion though it just happens to be a discussion of a nature that you, for whatever reason, do not like.

"Expressing frustration" is just your insistence that nothing is possible so discussion is meaningless. It contains nothing to discuss and demands, by language games Main Paineframe and others have already explained, that participants stop the discussion of specifics and accept their denial. This isn't new. You know that specific policies, and laws, and regulations, and courts, and elections exist. Others should not have to reestablish the existence of reality from first principles in order to have a discussion every time you want to demand that anything other than "death" is futile.

Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Nov 18, 2023

Hieronymous Alloy
Jan 30, 2009


Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!




Morbid Hound

Discendo Vox posted:

If you want to vent, find a pillow.

For some people here that might count as domestic violence

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010


If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER


Ultra Carp

Josef bugman posted:

It is for discussion though it just happens to be a discussion of a nature that you, for whatever reason, do not like. I mean, start discussing other options if you'd prefer. What would you see as a good way to change the USA's relationship with guns for the better?

Appoint/elect better judges, add semi-automatic rifles, shotguns, and handguns to the NFA and retroactively index the tax stamp to inflation. I have just solved guns and I expect all of you to thank me. :colbert:

World Famous W
May 25, 2007

BAAAAAAAAAAAA

Discendo Vox posted:

"Expressing frustration" is just your insistence that nothing is possible so discussion is meaningless. It contains nothing to discuss and demands, by language games Main Painframe and others have already explained, that participants stop the discussion of specifics and accept their denial. This isn't new. You know that specific policies, and laws, and regulations, and courts, and elections exist. Others should not have to reestablish the existence of reality from first principles in order to have a discussion every time you want to demand that anything other than "death" is futile.
and they're discussing whether they should exist in the form they do and what if any methods could change that

if its breaking a rule, report it

Scrotum Modem
Sep 12, 2014

Death to Videodrome. Long live the New Flesh.

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Discendo Vox
Mar 21, 2013

We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

World Famous W posted:

and they're discussing whether they should exist in the form they do and what if any methods could change that

if its breaking a rule, report it

"Death to america" is the opposite of any kind of discussion- it's a deliberately obtuse , uselessly overbroad slogan that obfuscates and denies any possible specific action. It's an ultimatum that has the effect of dismissing all other discussion, which is what it has done.

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