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GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*

Hello and welcome to the new spring 2023 thread, a few days later than I said I was going to.

Just a note to people who may be looking around in your bookmarks, the current D&D feedback thread will be closing soon, as in probably by tomorrow. Please take a look if you wish to add your own voice. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4027877&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

As a reminder, all of the rules for D&D apply in this thread. There is no need for american exceptionalism here.

I would like to highlight this post from the last page of the old USCE because it could be effecting you, the shut-in goon.

A big flaming stink posted:

we have another latex chemical extravaganza



https://twitter.com/UR_Ninja/status/1640068953576816641


whats more interesting is that another citywide text got sent out after the first one, assuring people that Baxter water treatment plant concluded that its water was safe to drink until at least monday at midnight

this is the coverage of water treatment plants in philly. not a single word has been mentioned of the other treatment plants besides baxter



moreover philly water has gone radio silent after saying that'd provide a 5pm update

https://twitter.com/PhillyH2O/status/1640083097117917186

bottled water is completely sold out throughout the city, and people are pissed because either they think the city made them spend money on water for no reason, or they think the city is lying to people to prevent further panic

fortunately the absolute fools didnt buy out the bottled seltzer at the stores, so me and my cat's drinking water is secure

e: this thread is a sum-up of the details of the accident, apparently the chemicals are the exact same that were spilled in east palestine

https://twitter.com/UR_Ninja/status/1640169722120400896

In happier news, pickleball is coming. You can't stop it. Have any goons
played it, or it just an op? I do know anyone who has actually played it.

quote:

But he said CityPickle had only a one-year commitment for the rink. “Our sense is that pickleball has real staying power and there is a deficit of opportunities in the city and this could become a longer-term thing, but we’re flexible,” he said. Still, he added, “right now we’re just looking forward to a great summer of pickleball.”

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Kith
Sep 17, 2009

You never learn anything
by doing it right.


i demand constantly rotating thread titles or this has all been for naught

GoutPatrol
Oct 17, 2009

*Stupid Babby*

Kith posted:

i demand constantly rotating thread titles or this has all been for naught

I really will try to keep up, but sometimes I get lazy, or I forget. If a really good one gets there I would like to keep it.

Failed Imagineer
Sep 22, 2018
This thread title is bad

Dietrich
Sep 11, 2001

My city replaced like 3/4ths the tennis courts with pickleball courts and they're slammed with players most sundays so I think it might be fun? Haven't tried it yet.

aBagorn
Aug 26, 2004

Dietrich posted:

My city replaced like 3/4ths the tennis courts with pickleball courts and they're slammed with players most sundays so I think it might be fun? Haven't tried it yet.

i find it wild that america has finally embraced pickleball.

we played it in senior year gym (22 years ago) and i enjoyed it so much that i asked my gym teacher to let me take a few sets of paddles and balls home but i could never get anyone to play.

wish i still had that stuff, it's vintage now

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.

aBagorn posted:

i find it wild that america has finally embraced pickleball.

we played it in senior year gym (22 years ago) and i enjoyed it so much that i asked my gym teacher to let me take a few sets of paddles and balls home but i could never get anyone to play.

wish i still had that stuff, it's vintage now

It's amazing it took us this long considering it's essentially slower and easier tennis.

Mellow Seas
Oct 9, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
Happy Spring.

Tennis:Pickleball::Baseball:Rounders (except for the order in which they inspired each other)

SourKraut posted:

Don't worry, dilution is the solution to pollution!
This but unironically.

Of course we should do everything in our power to stop environmental contamination (because this poo poo adds up) but the toxicity is always in the dose. If somebody puts a vial of MegaCancer Serum in the Mississippi in St. Paul, a person in New Orleans doesn't need to worry because 90,000 gallons per second is a pretty good mixer. I sincerely doubt anybody in Philly has anything to worry about.

Rappaport
Oct 2, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 18 hours!
According to Nixonland, in the 60's Chicago officials actually did the math, and figured it'd take 5 tons of LSD to spike the city's water supply. Super villain plots are expensive in real life.

Mellow Seas
Oct 9, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!
Overall it's probably good that they loudly announced the spill, but the limits of "people deserve full information" can bump up against the limits of "the information makes people do dumb things." Bottled water is an environmental problem in and of itself and on an individual level a waste of money. There are probably people in the city for whom buying the water was a financial strain, but they thought they had to for the health of their families.

But I can't blame people for getting worked up. There is no such thing as "full information" in a case like this, because most people don't (and shouldn't have to) have a good understanding of environmental science, and getting a piece of information without the wider context is going to lead people in unproductive directions.

Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Mar 27, 2023

CuddleCryptid
Jan 11, 2013

Things could be going better

God I just can't wait for "involved in the East Palestine derailment" to be a new buzz phrase.

bird food bathtub
Aug 9, 2003

College Slice

Mellow Seas posted:

Overall it's probably good that they loudly announced the spill, but the limits of "people deserve full information" can bump up against the limits of "the information makes people do dumb things." Bottled water is an environmental problem in and of itself and on an individual level a waste of money. There are probably people in the city for whom buying the water was a financial strain, but they thought they had to for the health of their families.

But I can't blame people for getting worked up. There is no such thing as "full information" in a case like this, because most people don't (and shouldn't have to) have a good understanding of environmental science, and getting a piece of information without the wider context is going to lead people in unproductive directions.

Kinda feels like a symptom of the wider diagnosis of "People don't trust poo poo coming from those in power anymore". A few decades of skull loving anyone south of the 1% for an extra dollar has effects like that on a society. If there was a reservoir of trust from previous actions to draw on, individual events like this could be smoothed over and dealt with appropriately by those who do have a good understanding of environmental science. But that's not the society we live in. We live in "gently caress You Got Mine" given mortal form, and the people making these decisions like buying bottled water are doing the best they can with what is available to them.

BRAKE FOR MOOSE
Jun 6, 2001

Mellow Seas posted:

But I can't blame people for getting worked up. There is no such thing as "full information" in a case like this, because most people don't (and shouldn't have to) have a good understanding of environmental science, and getting a piece of information without the wider context is going to lead people in unproductive directions.

Even if you do have a good understanding, there isn't enough public information available to make decisions, aside from "water from the Delaware has not yet passed into the water supply". But it's hard to blame people for exercising caution in a political environment where we've firmly established that public health authorities are balancing practicality with health.

Velocity Raptor
Jul 27, 2007

I MADE A PROMISE
I'LL DO ANYTHING
With all these chemical spills and train derailments happening lately, is this indicative of a bigger problem currently happening, or is it just frequency bias and the fact that these things are what people are paying attention to currently?

It's kinda concerning that accidental environmental destruction from negligence is happening more often.

Mellow Seas
Oct 9, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

bird food bathtub posted:

Kinda feels like a symptom of the wider diagnosis of "People don't trust poo poo coming from those in power anymore". A few decades of skull loving anyone south of the 1% for an extra dollar has effects like that on a society. If there was a reservoir of trust from previous actions to draw on, individual events like this could be smoothed over and dealt with appropriately by those who do have a good understanding of environmental science.
That symptom is partially caused by said... unnatural... loving on the part of the ultrawealthy, but it's also (and, I would argue, more directly) caused by direct propaganda against the administrative state (largely funded by said ultrawealthy).

We just went through something where the EPA said "there's not really any reason to think there's dioxins here," and everybody screamed "dioxins, dioxins!" until finally they tested and what do you know, there weren't any dioxins, except in the Indiana test that was basically intentionally designed to show dioxins because they stored the samples in a place teeming with dioxins. (What was up with that anyway?)

People having no trust in public health and safety officials is not a good thing, even if you think it's coming from a good anti-capitalist place (which I'm frankly dubious about), and it's something that makes people retreat further towards individualism and paranoia instead of community.

There should absolutely be a "reservoir of trust" established by the environmental transformation that this country has gone through over the last 60 years, because this place was a god drat dump and we've made gigantic improvements, more or less entirely because of government action. There is, like with crime issues, a tendency for people to "feel" like things are getting worse all the time when the long-term trend is massive improvement.

Velocity Raptor posted:

With all these chemical spills and train derailments happening lately, is this indicative of a bigger problem currently happening, or is it just frequency bias and the fact that these things are what people are paying attention to currently?
It is absolutely 100% this, possibly more than 100% honestly.

Freakazoid_
Jul 5, 2013


Buglord
Pickelball is the official state sport of Washington State and was created in Bainbridge Island as a kid's game in 1965.

Just about every school in the state has pickleball as part of their physical education course. It is probably the only physical sport where a couch potato can be within reach of the most talented jock with just a little practice.

GlyphGryph
Jun 23, 2013

Down came the glitches and burned us in ditches and we slept after eating our dead.

Velocity Raptor posted:

With all these chemical spills and train derailments happening lately, is this indicative of a bigger problem currently happening, or is it just frequency bias and the fact that these things are what people are paying attention to currently?

It's kinda concerning that accidental environmental destruction from negligence is happening more often.

In terms of derailments, we've been averaging three a day for over a decade, we're actually at a bit of a low right now though still around there, slightly up from last year but not a lot. We're at around half what we were in the 90s/2000s in terms of accidents per mile.

Not sure how that translates to chemical spills specifically.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

bird food bathtub posted:

Kinda feels like a symptom of the wider diagnosis of "People don't trust poo poo coming from those in power anymore". A few decades of skull loving anyone south of the 1% for an extra dollar has effects like that on a society. If there was a reservoir of trust from previous actions to draw on, individual events like this could be smoothed over and dealt with appropriately by those who do have a good understanding of environmental science. But that's not the society we live in. We live in "gently caress You Got Mine" given mortal form, and the people making these decisions like buying bottled water are doing the best they can with what is available to them.

This is kind of a long-standing problem with handling large-scale disasters where the population might need to temporarily change their behavior in a way that disrupts their lives.

From the POV of pure public health and safety, if you're not really sure whether something needs a response or not, you'd probably want to opt on the safe side and warn people that a response is likely necessary. In theory, anyway. But in practice, there's a big worry that people will hate it if things turn out lucky and said response ended up being unnecessary.

It's a big dilemma in severe weather forecasting, for example. If forecasters predict a severe storm is coming and urge the populace to take precautions, and then the winds change and the storm doesn't hit there or is a lot weaker than expected, people take that as meaning that the weather forecasting is unreliable. And the bigger the disruption is, the more reluctant officials can be to recommend that disruption. Nobody wants to recommend an evacuation only for the hurricane to turn on a dime and completely miss the area, but at the same time, a last-minute evacuation recommendation is useless.

Mellow Seas
Oct 9, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Freakazoid_ posted:

Pickelball is the official state sport of Washington State and was created in Bainbridge Island as a kid's game in 1965.

Just about every school in the state has pickleball as part of their physical education course. It is probably the only physical sport where a couch potato can be within reach of the most talented jock with just a little practice.
There must have been big regional variation in its adoption until, because it was a great game, it eventually started to become ubiquitous. Kind of like cornhole. I've been hearing the word "pickleball" for a few years but most of my actual exposure is from an episode of "Shrinking" a couple of weeks ago. It seems to be ping pong with light cardio, basically? Certainly something I'd be interested in trying, speaking as one of the coach potatoes.

I do fear that my lack of coordination, which is not just "pronounced" but "outlier" will make me no good at it, to the point where I don't really enjoy it, because that's what happened with cornhole. :v: I did enjoy tennis as a younger, healthier man, though.

Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Mar 27, 2023

Velocity Raptor
Jul 27, 2007

I MADE A PROMISE
I'LL DO ANYTHING

Main Paineframe posted:

This is kind of a long-standing problem with handling large-scale disasters where the population might need to temporarily change their behavior in a way that disrupts their lives.

From the POV of pure public health and safety, if you're not really sure whether something needs a response or not, you'd probably want to opt on the safe side and warn people that a response is likely necessary. In theory, anyway. But in practice, there's a big worry that people will hate it if things turn out lucky and said response ended up being unnecessary.

It's a big dilemma in severe weather forecasting, for example. If forecasters predict a severe storm is coming and urge the populace to take precautions, and then the winds change and the storm doesn't hit there or is a lot weaker than expected, people take that as meaning that the weather forecasting is unreliable. And the bigger the disruption is, the more reluctant officials can be to recommend that disruption. Nobody wants to recommend an evacuation only for the hurricane to turn on a dime and completely miss the area, but at the same time, a last-minute evacuation recommendation is useless.

Similar to this, but even stuff that proper precautions were taken and the crisis was properly mitigated to the point where no one was disrupted also causes people to think that the issue wasn't a big deal to begin with.

We've seen this with the threat of acid rain in the 80s and 90s, and the Y2K bug. People all came together to address the issue and the result was a minor disruption for the general public with Y2K, and with acid rain, the threat being properly mitigated.

Heck Yes! Loam!
Nov 15, 2004

a rich, friable soil containing a relatively equal mixture of sand and silt and a somewhat smaller proportion of clay.
I've never heard of pickleball before and I'm not about to start now.

Triskelli
Sep 27, 2011

I AM A SKELETON
WITH VERY HIGH
STANDARDS


USCE: The Politics of Pickleball

Madkal
Feb 11, 2008

I believe in all the ways that they say you can lose your body
Fallen Rib

aBagorn posted:

i find it wild that america has finally embraced pickleball.

we played it in senior year gym (22 years ago) and i enjoyed it so much that i asked my gym teacher to let me take a few sets of paddles and balls home but i could never get anyone to play.

wish i still had that stuff, it's vintage now

My folks started playing pickleball before the pandemic and I would join sometimes. It was always being played by retired boomers, so much so that most game times were weekday afternoons (when non retired boomers would be working). In the last few years it's exploded so much so that the community centers offer it several times a day with wait-lists, there are outdoor courts replacing tennis courts and it is getting popular with younger non boomer people. Personally I play it over tennis because I had an accident a few years back (don't recommend getting hit by a car) and it's easier on my body (and also I can no longer serve or smash in tennis).

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

YOU CAN TRUST ME!*


*Israeli Government-affiliated poster
According to the WSJ's new poll, Americans are basically becoming a nation of hard-working feminist nihilists who don't value anything else.

The only values that a solid majority of Americans still say is "very important" to them is "hard work" and "promoting equality between men and women."

Religion, community involvement, patriotism, making money, businesses/schools promoting racial equality, promoting transgender acceptance in society, and promoting gender-neutral pronouns all have less than half of Americans considering them "very important" values.

"Making money" is the only value that has grown in importance since 1998, but it still is only important to a minority of Americans.

The only value that most Americans agreed on as one that unites the country is that economic opportunity and hard work can improve your life.



quote:

Americans Pull Back From Values That Once Defined U.S., WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

Patriotism, religious faith, having children and other priorities that helped define the national character for generations are receding in importance to Americans, a new Wall Street Journal-NORC poll finds.

The survey, conducted with NORC at the University of Chicago, a nonpartisan research organization, also finds the country sharply divided by political party over social trends such as the push for racial diversity in businesses and the use of gender-neutral pronouns.

Some 38% of respondents said patriotism was very important to them, and 39% said religion was very important. That was down sharply from when the Journal first asked the question in 1998, when 70% deemed patriotism to be very important, and 62% said so of religion.

The share of Americans who say that having children, involvement in their community and hard work are very important values has also fallen. Tolerance for others, deemed very important by 80% of Americans as recently as four years ago, has fallen to 58% since then.

Bill McInturff, a pollster who worked on a previous Journal survey that measured these attitudes along with NBC News, said that “these differences are so dramatic, it paints a new and surprising portrait of a changing America.’’ He surmised that “perhaps the toll of our political division, Covid and the lowest economic confidence in decades is having a startling effect on our core values.’’

A number of events have shaken and in some ways fractured the nation since the Journal first asked about unifying values, among them the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the financial crisis of 2008 and subsequent economic downturn and the rise of former President Donald Trump.

The only priority the Journal tested that has grown in importance in the past quarter-century is money, which was cited as very important by 43% in the new survey, up from 31% in 1998.

Aside from money, all age groups, including seniors, attached far less importance to these priorities and values than when pollsters asked about them in 1998 and 2019. But younger Americans in particular place low importance on these values, many of which were central to the lives of their parents.

Some 23% of adults under age 30 said in the new survey that patriotism was very important to them personally, compared with 59% of seniors ages 65 or older. Some 31% of younger respondents said that religion was very important to them, compared with 55% among seniors.

Only 23% of adults under age 30 said that having children was very important.

To Kevin Williams, a commercial and residential painter in Bend, Ore., many of these values are linked. Mr. Williams, 33 years old, said he thought that patriotism is declining as a civic value in tandem with rising individualism, a sense of entitlement among many people and a decline in community involvement, possibly because of people focusing on their own racial or cultural backgrounds rather than what Americans have in common.

“I think patriotism encompasses being part of your community and helping other Americans,’’ said Mr. Williams, who said he coaches youth sports and volunteers with a group that provides security at protests and rallies.

Mr. Williams said that, as a middle-school student at the time of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, he knew then that he would join the military. “I just felt that I wanted to do my part to protect my country,’’ said Mr. Williams, who supported former President Donald Trump’s two White House campaigns. He eventually served four years in the Marines.

To Janet Boyer, a former Pentecostal minister who lives in Cumberland Township in Southwestern Pennsylvania’s coal country, patriotism has taken on a political sheen and is no longer important to her. “For me, patriotism has turned into right-wing nationalism,’’ said Ms. Boyer, who backed President Biden in 2020.

Political divisiveness also weighs on her. “Back in the day, Republicans and Democrats had a sense of deference to one another,’’ said Ms. Boyer, 52, a self-help author and jewelry designer. “They didn’t act like they were in a schoolyard trying to be vengeful and reactive."

Asked what values unite the nation, Elana Reiser, 43, of Brookhaven, N.Y., pointed to economic opportunity. “No matter your starting point, you can always become successful,’’ she said.

Some 21% in the survey said that America stands above all other countries in the world, a view that some call American exceptionalism. Half said that America is one of the greatest countries, along with some others. The share who said other countries are better than the U.S. rose to 27%, up from 19% when the same question was asked in 2016.

Ms. Reiser said that, as a university math teacher, she knows that other countries rank higher on tests of math performance. She said longer vacations and maternal leaves in some European countries mean they have a better quality of life. “In America, you basically have to work your whole life, and you don’t get breaks,’’ she said.

Jennifer Benz, vice president of public affairs and media research at NORC, said that views in the survey might have been colored by the downbeat economic outlook that the poll also found. “People are just sort of down on everything about the country,” she said.

The survey found sharp differences by political party on social issues that have gained prominence.

It asked whether society had gone far enough—or had gone too far—when it comes to businesses taking steps to promote racial and ethnic diversity. Just over half of Republicans said society had gone too far, compared with 7% of Democrats. Some 61% of Democrats said diversity efforts hadn’t gone far enough, compared with 14% of Republicans.

Three quarters of Republicans said society had gone too far in accepting people who are transgender, while 56% of Democrats said society hadn’t gone far enough.

Overall, 63% of people in the survey said that companies shouldn’t take public stands on social and political issues, while 36% of people said companies should take such stands. Among Republicans, 80% opposed companies doing so, while 56% of Democrats favored the idea.

Half of people in the survey said they didn’t like the practice of being asked to use gender-neutral pronouns, such as “they’’ or “them,’’ when addressing another person, compared with 18% who viewed it favorably. Some 30% of respondents under age 35 viewed the practice favorably, compared with 9% of seniors.

The Journal-NORC survey polled 1,019 people from March 1-13, mostly online. The margin of error was plus or minus 4.1 percentage points.

Differences in how the new poll and prior surveys were conducted might account for a small portion of the reported decline in importance of the American values tested. Prior surveys, conducted for the Journal and NBC News, used live interviewers to reach people by phone.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-pull-back-from-values-that-once-defined-u-s-wsj-norc-poll-finds-df8534cd

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Mar 27, 2023

BRAKE FOR MOOSE
Jun 6, 2001

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

“I think patriotism encompasses being part of your community and helping other Americans,’’ said Mr. Williams, who said he coaches youth sports and volunteers with a group that provides security at protests and rallies.

Oh boy.

CuddleCryptid
Jan 11, 2013

Things could be going better

I wonder if there was anything between 2019 and 2023 that would make Americans believe that getting deeply involved with their community wasn't worth the effort.

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost

GoutPatrol posted:


In happier news, pickleball is coming. You can't stop it. Have any goons
played it, or it just an op? I do know anyone who has actually played it.

Yeah, we’ve had this in Washington since the 60s. My grandparents would always set it up in their driveway on the 4th of July. It’s weird as gently caress seeing it pop up in trend pieces but we all know those writers just make poo poo up to meet a deadline anyway.

Edit:

Triskelli posted:

USCE: The Politics of Pickleball

Solkanar512 fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Mar 27, 2023

lobster shirt
Jun 14, 2021

only 27% of americans valuing community is extremely grim

BiggerBoat
Sep 26, 2007

Don't you tell me my business again.
I grew up in Delaware and lived in Philly and, let me tell you, I'm not sure how anyone can tell the difference after a chemical spill. loving 30 years ago, if you flew into the Philadelphia airport, you'd get a good look at the Delaware river and it looked an oil slick on a wet road. Rainbow color swirls and all. It also loving stunk to high heaven. That river doesn't even resemble water and looks like you could walk on it.

I'm not downplaying the spill, just saying it's weird to suddenly think that NOW the river is polluted so let's make a COVID-19 toilet paper run on all the bottled water. It's been disgusting toxic sludge for as long as I can remember.

Zotix
Aug 14, 2011



lobster shirt posted:

only 27% of americans valuing community is extremely grim

Money circulates around the community and while that poll didn't demonstrated it well, it's obvious that money is the most important value to Americans, and by proxy the community.

Zotix fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Mar 27, 2023

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006

“We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

lobster shirt posted:

only 27% of americans valuing community is extremely grim

Look how many Americans live in soulless suburbs that could be anywhere in the US, they've probably never really experienced a "community" to value one in the first place.

I didn't learn to value it until I moved out of the suburbs and lived somewhere that had a good local community that showed me what I had been missing out on, on the odd chance I ever have kids there's no way in hell I'd ever raise them in the suburbs.

Morrow
Oct 31, 2010
The issue is a lot of cultural touchstones have been exploited and commercialized or worse, the big one being patriotism after 9/11. It's created a nation of skeptic individualists who are always looking for the catch. That's why they believe in hard work: that is the catch.

Byzantine
Sep 1, 2007

Mustang posted:

Look how many Americans live in soulless suburbs that could be anywhere in the US, they've probably never really experienced a "community" to value one in the first place.

Or they're trapped in rural hellholes where the "community" is christians and trumpsuckers.

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010
It's less grim if you go look at the actual results.



The shift was generally from "Very Important" to "Somewhat Important", it's not like everyone's out there saying "gently caress community" all of a sudden. And while "tolerance for others" may have dropped in importance compared to four years ago, it still had the second-most people ranking it very important. It really just seems like people are less likely to say "very important" in general.

It's still worth noting due to the change from previous polls, but as the very end of the article (briefly!) notes, there's also a methodology change to be aware of. The 1998 and 2019 polls used live interviewers to call people, while the 2023 poll was an online poll, which the article generously says "might account for a small portion of the reported decline in importance of the American values tested". It doesn't link the previous polls, or the detailed crosstabs of this poll, so all we can really do is rely on what the writer cherrypicked anyway.

Skinnymansbeerbelly
Apr 1, 2010

Byzantine posted:

Or they're trapped in rural hellholes where the "community" is christians and trumpsuckers.

Sometimes you take a good hard look at your community and realize the world would be a better place if your neighbors were suppressed.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction
I'm more distressed that so many people believe in the lie of hard work than I am in any decline of any other dubious personal value.

Those were the only values they even bothered to ask about? I don't know how to feel about that. "Like I don't belong here," I guess.

Captain_Maclaine
Sep 30, 2001

Every moment I'm alive, I pray for death!

BiggerBoat posted:

I grew up in Delaware and lived in Philly and, let me tell you, I'm not sure how anyone can tell the difference after a chemical spill. loving 30 years ago, if you flew into the Philadelphia airport, you'd get a good look at the Delaware river and it looked an oil slick on a wet road. Rainbow color swirls and all. It also loving stunk to high heaven. That river doesn't even resemble water and looks like you could walk on it.

I'm not downplaying the spill, just saying it's weird to suddenly think that NOW the river is polluted so let's make a COVID-19 toilet paper run on all the bottled water. It's been disgusting toxic sludge for as long as I can remember.

I get your point, but it's a bit like how we used to make jokes about Boston Harbor being a literal septic tank in the early 80s: they've done a lot to clean up the Delaware in the intervening decades.

Epic High Five
Jun 5, 2004



Main Paineframe posted:

It's less grim if you go look at the actual results.



The shift was generally from "Very Important" to "Somewhat Important", it's not like everyone's out there saying "gently caress community" all of a sudden. And while "tolerance for others" may have dropped in importance compared to four years ago, it still had the second-most people ranking it very important. It really just seems like people are less likely to say "very important" in general.

It's still worth noting due to the change from previous polls, but as the very end of the article (briefly!) notes, there's also a methodology change to be aware of. The 1998 and 2019 polls used live interviewers to call people, while the 2023 poll was an online poll, which the article generously says "might account for a small portion of the reported decline in importance of the American values tested". It doesn't link the previous polls, or the detailed crosstabs of this poll, so all we can really do is rely on what the writer cherrypicked anyway.

"I'm not gonna read that, all of the above I guess" being a big part of what it is to be American is pretty accurately conveyed here. Maybe with a side order of "the news has been talking about X lately, if I mark 'uncertain' it'll make me seem in the know"

Yawgmoft
Nov 15, 2004
Water quality, from the James River to the Hudson to the Cheasapeake Bay has made large strides in the last 30 years. The mid to upper east coast has made huge strides to clean up their waterways, and you really can't compare how they were in the 90s to how they are now.

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Mellow Seas
Oct 9, 2012
Probation
Can't post for 10 years!

Veryslightlymad posted:

I'm more distressed that so many people believe in the lie of hard work than I am in any decline of any other dubious personal value.
I mean hard work itself isn't a "lie," hard work often accomplishes worthwhile things that could not have been accomplished otherwise. All else being equal (all else is not equal), you'd rather have a society of hard workers than one where people are more lackadaisical.

Oh boy, there are a bunch of lies about hard work, though. A few of them:

- That hard work is an unmitigated good that does not create its own personal and social ills
- That hard work is always worthwhile
- That hard work is a prerequisite for deserving respect
- That one's financial status is a reflection of how hard they've worked
- (The biggest, in the US) That hard work is consistently rewarded, or insulates you from disaster

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