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Not doing an OP, just post about it in here instead of elsewhere.New Division posted:I wouldn't completely rule out a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip for this go-around, even if it's only a temporary occupation. A lot of Netanyahu's allies are baying for some serious blood this time. I think Lieberman said that yesterday, even before they were found. THREAD RULES: IF YOUR POST ADDS SOMETHING TO THE THREAD AND POSITIVELY CONTRIBUTES, IT'S FINE. IF IT DOESN'T, YOU MIGHT GET PROBATED. edits: links to like all of the articles posted in the thread Blowdryer posted:http://parlanceprovince.wordpress.com/ip-table-of-contents/ Links to books The Easy Rider posted:For an in-depth debunking of the common claim that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and that they walked away from an offer for a Palestinian state, Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David is a good read, compiling a number of interviews with insiders in the negotiations. Xandu fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 8, 2014 |
# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:35 |
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# ? Jun 18, 2024 07:03 |
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What would be the point of Hamas doing this and not claim responsibility?
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:36 |
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I wouldn't be surprised if they did it, but I'd like to see some actual evidence, since Israel was itching to attack them as soon as they reunited with Fatah. They admitted they took Shalit within like a day.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:38 |
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The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:39 |
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DarkCrawler posted:What would be the point of Hamas doing this and not claim responsibility? I don't doubt that the most likely scenario is that they were killed by Palestinians of some type or another but Israel should be under a lot more pressure to produce proof of actual Hamas involvement as opposed to some rando criminals.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:40 |
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Yeah I think this has to have something to do with the fact that the Israeli gov't doesn't like the idea of a Hamas/Fatah reunion, since it presents a stronger front than the two separate groups. Granted even together they have little power compared to the IDF, but it's something. also the Israelis are still pissed at Fatah for getting Palestine recognized at the UN.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:41 |
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The amount of blood lust these kidnappings and murder have whipped up among the Israeli public is pretty frightening. Netanyahu is going to be under some pressure to satiate the desire for revenge. It will be interesting to see tomorrow if the IDF is mobilizing. If not, then we may just be in for another round of the ongoing bombardment of Gaza.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:42 |
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Elotana posted:Yes, this is what strikes me as unusual. When Hamas kidnaps Israelis they usually crow about it and try to ransom them. They don't kill them and leave them in a ditch somewhere to be found under ambiguous circumstances. I think you're right. If they were really killed soon after the kidnapping (it couldn't have been immediately since one of them called the police soon after), it kind of screams amateur abductors who realized they got in over their heads. I don't know though, they've been repeatedly saying they have unequivocal proof for a week now, but haven't actually said what it is. Maybe they will now that it's over.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:43 |
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If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:45 |
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It wouldn't surprise me if Hamas was behind it, but it's hella suspect that the Netanyahu government has been pushing the Hamas line since day 1, up to the point where even the administration response to finding the teenagers dead and offering condolences specifically named Hamas as the perpetrators, like they feel the need to keep pushing it at every opportunity and beyond. If they have proof, they should offer it.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:46 |
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Xandu posted:I think you're right. If they were really killed soon after the kidnapping (it couldn't have been immediately since one of them called the police soon after), it kind of screams amateur abductors who realized they got in over their heads. Just wait till you see Netanyahu's props for the press conference. Let's just say you might be seeing a standee of the leader of a certain Gaza Strip based organisation...
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:46 |
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FlamingLiberal posted:If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS Well, maybe. Bombing does a hell of a lot more to appease domestic outrage than releasing evidence and having a debate.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:46 |
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Xandu posted:Well, maybe. Bombing does a hell of a lot more to appease domestic outrage than releasing evidence and having a debate.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:48 |
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Elotana posted:Yes, this is what strikes me as unusual. When Hamas kidnaps Israelis they usually crow about it and try to ransom them. They don't kill them and leave them in a ditch somewhere to be found under ambiguous circumstances. If Palestinians killed them then it's okay to kill a boatload of Palestinians in revenge. :israelsay:
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:50 |
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Settler false flag. I have literally as much proof for my theory as Bibi does for his.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:53 |
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It's also beyond the pale that already the amount of suffering inflicted by Israel in searching for three teenagers and now punishing (???) Hamas has already been double the deaths among Palestinians and is definitely going to keep climbing into at least the teens.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:53 |
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FlamingLiberal posted:If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS It wouldn't surprise me if Israel had a program like NSA has, and can't reveal information without endangering their source.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:56 |
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Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:57 |
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I'm not surprised at all, yet still sickened by this poo poo.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:58 |
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Ofaloaf posted:Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days. Take a guess, then a drink. I'm taking a break from poo poo today so I'll be taking a shot for every airstrike I see reported in Gaza.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:59 |
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My Imaginary GF posted:It wouldn't surprise me if Israel had a program like NSA has, and can't reveal information without endangering their source. If that's an acceptable way to justify a bombing campaign they might as well claim whatever they like, proof or not, and say they can't reveal their sources so they can get away with anything - wait, ohhhhh....
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 00:59 |
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Ofaloaf posted:Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days. quote:Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Tuesday that he appreciated PA President Mahmoud Abbas’s words on the kidnapping of the three Israeli teens in Saudi Arabia, labeling them “important.”
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 01:02 |
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It's been reported that it appears the teens were murdered just a few hours after they were kidnapped. Assuming that's true it's interesting, since it makes the abduction look less like an attempt to grab hostages to trade for Palestinian prisoners and more of an attempt to re-ignite a broader conflict.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 01:30 |
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SedanChair posted:The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state. Any legitimate state is its people.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 01:38 |
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SedanChair posted:Settler false flag. Anything's possible. SedanChair posted:The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state. But basically this. John_A_Tallon posted:Any legitimate state is its people. I don't see anyone calling Israel legitimate.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 01:42 |
There's no way this was authorized by anyone in the HAMAS leadership, it makes absolutely no loving sense. It could have been rogue HAMAS members though.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 01:51 |
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John_A_Tallon posted:Any "legitimate" state is its people.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:08 |
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The Insect Court posted:It's been reported that it appears the teens were murdered just a few hours after they were kidnapped. Assuming that's true it's interesting, since it makes the abduction look less like an attempt to grab hostages to trade for Palestinian prisoners and more of an attempt to re-ignite a broader conflict. Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:09 |
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Were the 3 slain Israeli teenagers in regular Israel proper when kidnapped or were they settlers who were illegally trespassing in the West Bank?
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:32 |
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Sergg posted:Were the 3 slain Israeli teenagers in regular Israel proper when kidnapped or were they settlers who were illegally trespassing in the West Bank? The latter. They were hanging out on a street corner trying to hitchhike as that is apparently a popular way to rub their free movement in Palestinians' faces.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:33 |
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SedanChair posted:The State of Israel should be brought to an end. Not the people, just the state. Makes a lot more sense to pressure the State of Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and accede to Palestinian statehood therein. There's international consensus on that, and the EU is making headway with it. There is none of that for dismantling Israel as a state. Captain_Maclaine posted:Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong. Also not all of Hamas is 110% behind working with Fatah, who had just recently been suppressing them in the West Bank, and who, to their mind, had been collaborating with the Zionist oppressor for two decades now. In any event, just because this is clearly in Israeli interest doesn't mean it was instigated by Israelis. They just needed a trigger, if this hadn't come up, a rocket from the Gaza Strip killing somebody, whether it was a response to a previous Israeli bombing or not, would have done the same work. SedanChair posted:The latter. They were hanging out on a street corner trying to hitchhike as that is apparently a popular way to rub their free movement in Palestinians' faces. No, that is what happens when you need to move around a place that has poor public transportation service. Getting from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem to some of these settlements is easy, getting around them apparently is difficult if you don't have your own vehicle. I don't see how it's useful to make them out as more monstrous than actual actions are, it's not a productive way of engaging with people whose views/actions you want to change.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:38 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There are millions of well-armed Israeli Jews who are not interested in hearing that. So how to you expect that to happen? Their deaths in combat, clearly.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:39 |
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Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:40 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There are millions of well-armed Israeli Jews who are not interested in hearing that. So how to you expect that to happen? Hopefully more and more Jewish kids will become completely disillusioned with racism and support a one-state solution. quote:No, that is what happens when you need to move around a place that has poor public transportation service. Getting from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem to some of these settlements is easy, getting around them apparently is difficult if you don't have your own vehicle. I don't see how it's useful to make them out as more monstrous than actual actions are, it's not a productive way of engaging with people whose views/actions you want to change. I have no hope of changing the minds of settlers in the West Bank. They're fanatics.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:42 |
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computer parts posted:Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own. Jewish State
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:43 |
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computer parts posted:Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own. Who is going to be giving them that citizenship? I don't see that ending in anything but a brutal civil war that Palestinians will lose because Israelis are better armed. I would like to see less borders in some future time, but right now I don't see Israeli Jews accepting a State where Jews aren't in charge. If it has to be non-democratic, they'll take that route. Hell, they are taking that route with the Occupation right now, the only reason there's a semblance of the whole thing being democratic is that even according to Israeli law, the West Bank is under military occupation. ETA: SedanChair posted:Hopefully more and more Jewish kids will become completely disillusioned with racism and support a one-state solution. quote:I have no hope of changing the minds of settlers in the West Bank. They're fanatics. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 1, 2014 |
# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:44 |
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McDowell posted:Jewish State Like I said, it ends on its own (by definition). Absurd Alhazred posted:Who is going to be giving them that citizenship? I don't see that ending in anything but a brutal civil war that Palestinians will lose because Israelis are better armed. I would like to see less borders in some future time, but right now I don't see Israeli Jews accepting a State where Jews aren't in charge. If it has to be non-democratic, they'll take that route. Hell, they are taking that route with the Occupation right now, the only reason there's a semblance of the whole thing being democratic is that even according to Israeli law, the West Bank is under military occupation. That's effectively what's happening right now just drawn out. The states of Palestine that exist now (either Gaza + West Bank or each individually) are not tenable states. They're Indian reservations. computer parts fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Jul 1, 2014 |
# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:44 |
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong. Which is why one of them called the police to say they were being kidnapped.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:46 |
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That won't happen while the Occupation is in existence. I sure as hell don't see it with Jewish kids now. These attitudes are actually shifting. I don't have any articles on hand, but I remember a few years back there was a flurry of articles about how Western Jewish people were growing disaffected with Israel due to the occupation (at least in part).
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:52 |
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# ? Jun 18, 2024 07:03 |
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Much as I am loathe to condone the murder of teenagers, this is an inescapable consequence of the social injustice of Apartheid when you try to de-facto annex another nation-state's territory and marginalize its citizens through the slow process of settler encroachment.
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# ? Jul 1, 2014 02:57 |