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Dongsturm posted:Because that is what Peterson stans do everywhere. it's loving exhausting because the moment you verbally club one into submission, the next one shows up with exactly the same drivel. It's like the old quote about anti-semites; they love to use the appearance of debate as a platform to spread their propaganda, no more and no less. They have no desire or capacity to engage; they have a pre-existing set of talking points they spew and hope to get people from the audience either interested in them or just dumb and credulous enough to go 'Hey, he's just trying to have a rational debate!' when someone inevitably gets sick of his poo poo. And they loving love the liberal idea of 'sunlight is the best disinfectant!' along with 'have you considered both sides have a point?' because it means they can't lose.
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Nov 15, 2021 14:13
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I'm a leftist so uneducated that I've dropped out of school twice and still don't have a degree at 28. I've never cracked a book of philosophy, I prefer rereading LotR. JP isn't a philosopher. he is a preacher for atheists
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Nov 15, 2021 14:39
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Ihki posted:I sort of just spent a page and a half building a semi-contrarian anti-Jorp position which was looking at the material and ideological practicality of people who genuinely like the guy for substantive reasons, and I thought I conceded there's quite a bit more to it than how he makes you feel fuzzy and academic words (unless used by Peterson) make you scared and insecure. My generous reasoning for this would include something like how Jordan is a Christian conservative response to the anglophone death of metaphysics, celebrated too soon by scientism. What does seem to be true is how any criticism of the guy quickly becomes loving bullshit garbage. I guess the funny part is, I really don't see any other objections you've made other than how Jorp makes you feel fuzzy, and academic words make you feel scared and insecure. It's like you're afraid the world is trying to stop you from cumming. Sometimes it is just that simple. It's interesting. yeah peterson is tapping into a need for a new theology the western world is desperate for. but that doesn't make him good it makes him a talented huckster
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Nov 15, 2021 14:42
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Ihki posted:I sort of just spent a page and a half building a semi-contrarian anti-Jorp position which was looking at the material and ideological practicality of people who genuinely like the guy for substantive reasons, and I thought I conceded there's quite a bit more to it than how he makes you feel fuzzy and academic words (unless used by Peterson) make you scared and insecure. My generous reasoning for this would include something like how Jordan is a Christian conservative response to the anglophone death of metaphysics, celebrated too soon by scientism. What does seem to be true is how any criticism of the guy quickly becomes loving bullshit garbage. I guess the funny part is, I really don't see any other objections you've made other than how Jorp makes you feel fuzzy, and academic words make you feel scared and insecure. It's like you're afraid the world is trying to stop you from cumming. Sometimes it is just that simple. It's interesting. Gibberish.
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Nov 15, 2021 14:45
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Ihki posted:I sort of just spent a page and a half building a semi-contrarian anti-Jorp position which was looking at the material and ideological practicality of people who genuinely like the guy for substantive reasons, and I thought I conceded there's quite a bit more to it than how he makes you feel fuzzy and academic words (unless used by Peterson) make you scared and insecure. My generous reasoning for this would include something like how Jordan is a Christian conservative response to the anglophone death of metaphysics, celebrated too soon by scientism. What does seem to be true is how any criticism of the guy quickly becomes loving bullshit garbage. I guess the funny part is, I really don't see any other objections you've made other than how Jorp makes you feel fuzzy, and academic words make you feel scared and insecure. It's like you're afraid the world is trying to stop you from cumming. Sometimes it is just that simple. It's interesting. Que
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Nov 15, 2021 14:49
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Rutibex posted:yeah peterson is tapping into a need for a new theology the western world is desperate for. but that doesn't make him good it makes him a talented huckster Yeah, of course. He is talented, though. It's not just soulless propagandists like Rubin & Lindsay converting to Christianity to get that Christofascist buck from Praeger & O'Fallon, but a lot of regular people. A lot more are just subscribing to some narcissistic fantasy of living in the 1950s. That's worth taking seriously.
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Nov 15, 2021 14:50
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It's like the old quote about anti-semites; they love to use the appearance of debate as a platform to spread their propaganda, no more and no less. They have no desire or capacity to engage; they have a pre-existing set of talking points they spew and hope to get people from the audience either interested in them or just dumb and credulous enough to go 'Hey, he's just trying to have a rational debate!' when someone inevitably gets sick of his poo poo. And they loving love the liberal idea of 'sunlight is the best disinfectant!' along with 'have you considered both sides have a point?' because it means they can't lose. And it ain't just "intellectuals" I deal with this poo poo all the time from homophobic family.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:01
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eSporks posted:And it ain't just "intellectuals" I deal with this poo poo all the time from homophobic family. You have my sympathies. Cryptos and their enablers are the worst.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:50
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I used to have a smug techbro roommate who was not only a Peterson fanboy, but also J K Rowling. A parfait of poo poo, you might say, who I avoided like the plague after hearing him agree with Rowling's lovely opinion about trans women.
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Nov 15, 2021 15:54
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This is why I think some of my friends (not Jorp fans) shut me down pretty drat quickly once when I was genuinely curious what Jorp's deal was. I had not realized yet that this bad-faith "I'm just asking questions, hmm?" tactic is exactly what's being described about the perfomative appearance of "rational debate." Which is how I ended up reading 12 Rules, because another friend (Jorp fan) suggested I just go to the source. Thankfully, instead of radicalizing me to clean my room and daydream about kicking children, it showed how clunky and unsatisfying and morbid Jorp's worldview is. Hence the hate-highlighting after about 150 pages. So, mission accomplished? Though it really tests the limits of that Malcolm X quote: "Read absolutely everything you get your hands on because you’ll never know where you’ll get an idea from." But I repeat myself from 60 pages back.
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Nov 15, 2021 16:18
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Ihki posted:I sort of just spent a page and a half building a semi-contrarian anti-Jorp position which was looking at the material and ideological practicality of people who genuinely like the guy for substantive reasons, and I thought I conceded there's quite a bit more to it than how he makes you feel fuzzy and academic words (unless used by Peterson) make you scared and insecure. My generous reasoning for this would include something like how Jordan is a Christian conservative response to the anglophone death of metaphysics, celebrated too soon by scientism. What does seem to be true is how any criticism of the guy quickly becomes loving bullshit garbage. I guess the funny part is, I really don't see any other objections you've made other than how Jorp makes you feel fuzzy, and academic words make you feel scared and insecure. It's like you're afraid the world is trying to stop you from cumming. Sometimes it is just that simple. It's interesting. It's simple - Everyone is a moron, including Jorp
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Nov 15, 2021 16:31
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Strange Poon posted:Some of us are actually minorities, so gently caress off on that idiot lol I'm a woman, and I would really love it if men like Jorp didn't talk about me like I'm part of a different species with alien intelligence and inscrutable motives. These guys think about women the way biologists talk about octopus intelligence. "It is believed that the mysterious Female has independent nerve centers in their limbs and use coloring to signal fertility."
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Nov 15, 2021 16:42
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Powerful Katrinka posted:I'm a woman, and I would really love it if men like Jorp didn't talk about me like I'm part of a different species with alien intelligence and inscrutable motives. These guys think about women the way biologists talk about octopus intelligence. "It is believed that the mysterious Female has independent nerve centers in their limbs and use coloring to signal fertility." It's a type of thinking I've never been able to even understand - I can understand plenty of things I do not agree with, but somehow the idea of not being able to think of another person who is different to you as a person who experiences things like oneself is... Near alien to me.
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Nov 15, 2021 17:40
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When boys are socialized to shun and avoid everything "girly", to not even so much as look at the color pink too long lest someone think you're gay or a girl, I don't find it hard to believe that they'd have maladjusted views. You're told to take no interest in half of your peers' interests or hobbies because it's "for girls", it's "not manly", it's "effeminate". At that's just things boys get told directly, there's a million examples of society making man and woman into diametrically opposed opposites with no common ground. I, and most men and AMAB people, grow out of that when we actually form relationships with women on our own but for some people they have absolutely no interest whatsoever in analyzing their own beliefs. I bet you could count on two hands the number of times Jordan has ever asked his wife what she thought about something and wasn't just doing it out of social obligation.
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Nov 15, 2021 18:14
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Ihki posted:Yeah, of course. He is talented, though. It's not just soulless propagandists like Rubin & Lindsay converting to Christianity to get that Christofascist buck from Praeger & O'Fallon, but a lot of regular people. A lot more are just subscribing to some narcissistic fantasy of living in the 1950s. That's worth taking seriously. I'm not sure what your looking for here. Like he's a reactionary and they are popular for a numerous of reasons many of which have been developed by some of the thinkers you mentioned before. The one you mentioned, that people are reacting to the "death of god/metaphysics" has been around forever man. You seem to think that by studying Peterson himself you can uncover some hidden truth, but there's no big secret, when you delve into the content behind the form you are just left with disappointment. All you find is some normal, albeit dumb thoughts. People don't like him because he got famous attacking minorities (promoting the misreading of C16), because he believes himself to be a big thinker but hasn't actually done any readings on the topics he talks about. People like him because he simplifies the world and gives them somebody to blame (post-modern neo-Marxists) for the continuing crisis's stemming from the system they live under. None of this new, Peterson is no different and there is nothing that will give you a satisfying answer because he is a Sublime Object of Ideology mate. You might say that this thread has a fetishistic interest of him but this is not the problem itself, it is symptomatic of an unconscious larger issue. In psychoanalysis you do not identify your unconscious in the dream itself, but in the dreamwork, how its formed. As Marx shows with his analysis of commodities, it is the same with the political economy. We should not look for the "secret" in why Peterson is effective at attracting reactionaries, but instead we should be asking why reactionary thought is always constantly rearing itself in our liberal society. This is of course all entirely from Zizek's book, not even the end of the first chapter. I mean you mentioned you read a bunch of theory, you can start using it to investigate things happening in the world. You mentioned before you were from the New Rationalist community and I think this exemplary of a bad habit you picked up from them which is to engage in collecting knowledge like your collecting Pokémon. Hamburger Sandwich fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 18:20
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The clearest sign that there's no wizard behind the curtain is that no one has ever, in all of his history, posted a clip of Jordan Peterson saying something impressive. It's always "just watch him talk for 5 hours here and you'll get it if you really pay attention." No one can point to a chapter, paragraph, any specific speech or anything where he gets a point across or does anything useful or valuable. Not even once.
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Nov 15, 2021 18:26
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Snorlax, I choose you
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Nov 15, 2021 18:32
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Oolb posted:... while completely ignoring the obvious fact that he offers something which strongly resonates with people across many different demographics! I mean, Donald Trump also offers something that strongly resonates with people across many different demographics, and he's a huge idiot that speaks like a 4th grader. Having popular appeal is not a sign that someone is intelligent, insightful, or even correct.
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Nov 15, 2021 18:46
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Martman posted:The clearest sign that there's no wizard behind the curtain is that no one has ever, in all of his history, posted a clip of Jordan Peterson saying something impressive. It's always "just watch him talk for 5 hours here and you'll get it if you really pay attention." impressive is in the eyes of the beholder, my dog sure seems impressed that I can work doorknobs and stuff. Just gotta find your audience A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 18:49
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:impressive is in the eyes of the beholder, my dog sure seems impressed that I can work doorknobs and stuff. Seems to me that Jordan's just found his audience.
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Nov 15, 2021 18:52
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Oolb posted:My Take. I like his lectures on psychology... He's very willing to speak on things he doesn't seem to understand at all! "He just opens his mouth and lets words fall out of it, he's very admirable. True, he doesn't try to learn about what he's talking about and he presents himself as an expert, but that's why I like him! We're both completely stupid."
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Nov 15, 2021 18:58
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Nov 15, 2021 18:59
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Martman posted:His dumb fans would seize any opportunity to amplify any kind of "Jorp owns [x] in under 2 minutes!!" soundbite or whatever. It's just never happened I've seen videos with titles like that that just consist of totally normal nonconfrontational interactions, I haven't gone looking for one specifically featuring Jordan Peterson because I'm not severely mentally ill but if you haven't seen one I don't think it's because the le epic debate clapback guys were incapable of fantasizing that that's what was going on the whole reason chuds love debate-me poo poo is that it's got the veneer of some kind of intellectual discourse but there's no objectively measurable outcome or requirement to reach a consensus going on. If you ignore everything the other guy said, yell a bunch of word salad, and come out feeling like a winner you're the guy who totally won that one and nobody can tell you otherwise, champ A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 19:07
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Hamburger Sandwich posted:I'm not sure what your looking for here. Like he's a reactionary and they are popular for a numerous of reasons many of which have been developed by some of the thinkers you mentioned before. The one you mentioned, that people are reacting to the "death of god/metaphysics" has been around forever man. It's been a while since I've read SOI, but I'm pretty well read on Zizek (most recently Sex and the Failed Absolute and actively following his essays). More read than on any other philosopher, really. That's a pretty strange read of SOI's namesake concept, but that's a bit beyond what's on the table. To the best of my knowledge, I'm asking the questions you said I should be asking, where critique of ideology is quite exactly about the opposite: seeking for the hidden psychic or material truth that motivates people. If the big point I've tried to color in is how he is a systemic problem for a systemic demand that is not going anywhere, then that's pretty materialist to me. I am taking Peterson and his phenomenon at almost face value here, speculating about what is a realistic response to his ascendancy which isn't already burned in the culture war. If anything, this is in the vein of the later, more Hegelian materialist than Lacanian Zizek. I'm not far from Zizek in this specific case, here, actually, who wrote a little piece called Why do people find Jordan Peterson so convincing? Because the left doesn't have its own house in order. If you wanted me to do the whole critique of ideology or Lacanian dancearoo act, talking about hysterics or neurotics and displacements or fantasies then that's possible, but with the reflexive hostility that comes from a couple of you even when avoiding the jargon (I don't mind), I've tried not to go there nor do I think it would be very interesting. If you think the only posting here is meant to be knee-jerk poo pooing on the guy, the verdict is already in for good, then that's one position you can take. Fair. I figure that's roughly as productive of a position as it is to say the most you should think about Trump is that he's bad and evil and stupid, and so are the people who voted for him. Or you could do this in trying to aggravate and insult antivaxxers, the quintessential hysterics (which I've written some essay about from a Zizekian POV). Might be fun, I'm not kink shaming, but it doesn't go very far with anything at all. Otherwise, I'd be interested in what kind of analytic criticism of Jorp is acceptable to you. As he is seen as an authority here, would you agree with Zizek up above? If I am seen as a threat with a similar line, then I claim you've got bigger problems than JP. Who, yes, I'm sorry, isn't reducible to some simple cartoonish monster, even if it feels good to say. Neither are most of the people who get stuck with his rear end. I don't mean to say you should be nice to him or anything, simply that this is probably a line of thought that can be said out loud, like how Lowtax was more than just subhuman scum who deserved to die (which was at times controversial in the other thread). Insulting me for my rationalism in, like, 2005, is fine, but much of this sounds like deflection. Hope your political philosophy was mature and complete at sixteen years old! The entire concept of capital-T Theory is much about the collection of different frameworks used to examine things through various lenses. The big idea is that you get different results and possible insights depending on what you've thrown out there. I'm happy to have a couple of Pokemon to try out as needed. Apparently that's bad, I should've just read SOI's first chapter (Marx's invention of the symptom, if I recall). If this is really such an inconvenience to you, then I don't mind stopping. e: Dug up Zizek's foreword to Myth and Mayhem: A Leftist Critique of Jordan Peterson which I hadn't read but figured probably contained an extension of this line of thought. After reflections on the linked article as well as the infamous debate, it ends like this: Slavoj Zizek posted:To conclude, allow me to just indicate how I see the fact (which bothered many ‘Leftists’) that the exchange between Peterson and myself was relatively peaceful and polite. The reason is not just that there are definitely aspects of his work which I appreciate (above all his clinical work, but also his critique of political correctness, his claim that white supremacism is identity politics appropriated by the Right, etc.). The basic difference between us was so evident that there was no need in that context to reassert it violently. And, ultimately, this difference is in our view of the present constellation of humanity: the way I see it, Peterson is much too optimistic—he thinks that capitalism will be able to manage its problems, while I think that we are approaching a global emergency-state, and that only a radical change can give us a chance. Reading a bit more, it's weirdly satisfying how I'm lectured about how I should be reading Zizek (based on how you related SOI to Peterson, it's pretty hard to believe you've read Sublime Object, fwiw), the good leftist, who's not only the biggest influence to my stitched up Pokemon philosophy, but his position is almost literally the same as mine. The biggest difference is how he's far more critical of left discourses than I dared to be (or am). I think Z would find some interest in the nice contradiction of how to talk and think about Peterson in a Jordan Peterson thread, you need to dress it with the kind of blind anger that makes it impossible to think or talk about him. After considering that whole thing a little bit, I got the message. Peterson's superfans might be obsessional neurotics, but this thread is pure hysteria. Ihki fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 19:12
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Ihki posted:Insulting me for my rationalism in, like, 2005, is fine, but much of this sounds like deflection. Lmao
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Nov 15, 2021 19:17
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Can we go back to having random Jorp weirdos coming to this thread to say "u mad"
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Nov 15, 2021 19:20
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Powerful Katrinka posted:I'm a woman, and I would really love it if men like Jorp didn't talk about me like I'm part of a different species with alien intelligence and inscrutable motives. These guys think about women the way biologists talk about octopus intelligence. "It is believed that the mysterious Female has independent nerve centers in their limbs and use coloring to signal fertility." Defending yourself on these attacks, obviously it's in bad faith. You're irrational / looking for a reason to be offended. Oh, also all leftists are white male trustfund kids just doing it because it's "cool". "We" actually have minorities / women's best interest at heart (by demeaning, alienating, and un-personing them).
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Nov 15, 2021 19:23
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Wow I like how what you all took from that is that I'm a White Dude who Likes Jordan Peterson. Congrats on continuing to be insufferable nerds but that's not fair because at least nerds loving read between the lines. Oh okay I'm sorry. I was "arguing in bad faith". I should have "read the room".
Oolb fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 21:19
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White Dude who Likes Jordan Peterson posted:Wow I like how what you all took from that is that I'm a White Dude who Likes Jordan Peterson. Congrats on continuing to be insufferable nerds. U mad
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Nov 15, 2021 21:21
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The meltdowns continue apace lol
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Nov 15, 2021 21:22
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Jordan Peterson cannot poo poo properly for reasons entirely of his own making There are other, more damning reasons why he is bad but for this alone I condemn his ideas in the strongest terms
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Nov 15, 2021 21:28
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Oolb posted:Wow I like how what you all took from that is that I'm a White Dude who Likes Jordan Peterson. Congrats on continuing to be insufferable nerds but that's not fair because at least nerds loving read between the lines. Oh okay I'm sorry. I was "arguing in bad faith". I should have "read the room". Do you agree with Jorp that women wear makeup to signal that they want to be raped?
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Nov 15, 2021 21:29
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Long-Time Lurker posted:U mad Yeah, because most on the left are bad people with bad arguments and think they're good people with good arguments because they are on the team that professes to care about other people. But all they really care about is themselves and people like themselves. Which is pretty "conservative" tbqh! only it doesn't seem so because conservatives are all batshit. Oolb fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 21:30
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Powerful Katrinka posted:Do you agree with Jorp that women wear makeup to signal that they want to be raped? yes (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Oolb fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Nov 15, 2021 |
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Nov 15, 2021 21:32
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Oolb posted:Yeah, because most on the left are bad people with bad arguments but think they're good people with good arguments because they are on the team that professes to care about other people, but all they really care about is themselves and people like themselves. Which is pretty "conservative" tbqh! only it doesn't seem so because conservatives are evangelical as hell these days!
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Nov 15, 2021 21:37
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Oolb posted:yes So you're garbage. Get the gently caress out.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:43
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Oolb posted:yes fascinating, please elaborate
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Nov 15, 2021 21:49
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Oolb posted:yes In all seriousness you are a bad person with a heroic amount of self-work to do. I do not envy you.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:52
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Rutibex posted:JP isn't a philosopher. he is a preacher for atheists I don't know any atheists into jorp. Jorp fans go to church because they think they're supposed to. I don't think the average jorped up joe is an atheist.
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Nov 15, 2021 21:53
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Oolb posted:Yeah, because most on the left are bad people with bad arguments and think they're good people with good arguments because they are on the team that professes to care about other people. But all they really care about is themselves and people like themselves. Which is pretty "conservative" tbqh! only it doesn't seem so because conservatives are all batshit. Oolb, I don't know who hurt you - but I care about you enough to tell you that your hero is a pseudointellectual clown, and the only reason he's done anything for you is that your fragile psyche needed a big macho debate daddy to act like he knew what he was talking about and tell you everything was ok. But, it's ok to be afraid and feel lost - you can still be a man and feel those emotions. I'm not taking the moral high ground here, we are all just as afraid and lost as you are. But, the answers don't come easy from a canadian who would probably trepanate you if his all meat and benzo diet hadn't sucked all the strength out of his arms.
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