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That's pretty much all you can do at Funko, they've reached a point where the market is saturated with the drat things and even the hardcore collectors are showing retail fatigue. Sure poo poo still sells but not in greater and greater numbers. If you want to hit that growth number it's time for layoffs and other more nefarious practices.
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May 11, 2024 16:42
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Ominous Jazz posted:So is she just trying to strip the copper out of the walls or what I mean it's absolutely the point in the corporate life cycle where that is the sensible move.
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May 11, 2024 16:43
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Bottom Liner posted:While exceedingly stupid and a hilarious look at techbro brain trying to overdesign a fix to a common issue, this didn’t materially hurt anyone as OP asked about. Overwatch WAS a very diverse cast of characters that resonated with a lot of people way more than the game deserved, they just got there in the dumbest possible way. The reveal of those tools was embarrassing but it didn’t cause harm to the demographics depicted. I didn't mean it was harmful to any minorities. It was a PR puff stunt that wildly backfired on Blizzard itself. It's a funny harm because Blizzard is a comical disaster of a mismanaged company, and it speaks volumes that they thought this would be a good thing to present as something they definitely do, but I think that's where the most material "risk" is. Just revealing how blinkered people at the top can be when they're told to act more presentable. That's why stuff like this feels more hollow than hurtful a lot of the time. You can sort of see where it might be well-meaning but it's been run through a dozen marketing filters until all the textures and edges are blasted smooth and you're served bland goop on a platter. Feels Villeneuve posted:like - you can point out that yes, marketers also package and sell non-minority identities like masculinity, or "geekdom" to people, but i think it's fair to say that the reduction of masculinity to a list of marketing buzzwords, pop-cultural touchstones, and beer brands, has clearly done a great deal of harm to american culture's understanding of masculinity as a whole. There is this side to it, too, when you follow this branch further away from the discussion. The ultimate goal with stuff like this is corporations identifying "viable marketing demographics" above all else, and all the baggage that kind of reductive thinking carries. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 18:27 on May 11, 2024 |
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May 11, 2024 18:22
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Nuns with Guns posted:I didn't mean it was harmful to any minorities. It was a PR puff stunt that wildly backfired on Blizzard itself. It's a funny harm because Blizzard is a comical disaster of a mismanaged company, and it speaks volumes that they thought this would be a good thing to present as something they definitely do, but I think that's where the most material "risk" is. Just revealing how blinkered people at the top can be when they're told to act more presentable. Especially because it feels like Blizzard specifically is going "they found out about the Cosby Room? Uh, announce Pharah is a girl-who-likes-girls!"
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May 11, 2024 19:47
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The original question (I forget who asked it) was if corporate pandering was even harmful to the groups being marketed to just because it makes chuds rally to the cause as others were implying. The Blizzard diversity tool is not an example of that harm.
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May 11, 2024 19:56
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Bottom Liner posted:The original question (I forget who asked it) was if corporate pandering was even harmful to the groups being marketed to just because it makes chuds rally to the cause as others were implying. The Blizzard diversity tool is not an example of that harm. I wasn't trying to answer that specific question  . I couldn't tell you where that came up in the discussion anyway since it seemed like it broke down into some mutually hostile back and forth thing.
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May 11, 2024 20:48
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In personal industry news I have like four books now that are finished and awaiting their release dates still. Feels good. We've got a monster manual and a potion deck that's also cocktail recipe cards and an RPG trivia book and a collection of RPG stickers. Also I'm not currently writing anything which is a different kind of good feel.
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May 11, 2024 21:19
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theironjef posted:In personal industry news I have like four books now that are finished and awaiting their release dates still. Feels good. We've got a monster manual and a potion deck that's also cocktail recipe cards and an RPG trivia book and a collection of RPG stickers. Also I'm not currently writing anything which is a different kind of good feel. I'm really glad the Cheese Dudes project has been such a success for you two. 
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May 11, 2024 21:48
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Kwyndig posted:That's pretty much all you can do at Funko, they've reached a point where the market is saturated with the drat things and even the hardcore collectors are showing retail fatigue. Sure poo poo still sells but not in greater and greater numbers. If you want to hit that growth number it's time for layoffs and other more nefarious practices. I don't even know if they can do many more layoffs. All the people I knew working at Funko either quit within the last couple years as they could see the writing on the wall or were essentially laid off when their projects were 'ended'. It sounded like they were getting real close to 'strip the wire out of the walls because who will stop you?' already.
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May 11, 2024 22:46
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Funko is trying to pivot to being a license, right? Like they have video games and board games and stuff, and basically are trying to play at the same game as Lego or Multiversus, basically "We provide a way by which a mostly reasonable facsimile of the Joker and Rick Sanchez can fight in an official game."
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May 11, 2024 22:48
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I still lol at the Funko CEO telling a reporter that they were "recession-proof" in 2019.
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May 11, 2024 22:49
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Bottom Liner posted:The original question (I forget who asked it) was if corporate pandering was even harmful to the groups being marketed to just because it makes chuds rally to the cause as others were implying. The Blizzard diversity tool is not an example of that harm. Chuds are going to rally around anything, and they're pretty much a lost cause. The blizzard tool is indirectly harmful, in that it affirms the toxic view that inclusion is just another marketing gimmick. That is, the tool itself was helpful as a behind-the-scenes resource. When public, tho, it confirms the schoolyard legend that media only has diversity hire characters because an algorithm told them to. It undermines inclusivity efforts, since now people "know" the real reason that Jana Proudmore's new friend is trans. "I've seen the screenshot, they've got a program that says ADD BLACKS." It also tips the company's hand that they don't consider the diversity categories "typical." I get what they're going for - but it's still othering in the same way as saying you've got a halal menu and a normal one. It's real easy to gently caress this stuff up.
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May 11, 2024 23:02
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moths posted:Chuds are going to rally around anything, and they're pretty much a lost cause. And we’ve officially come full circle as that was exactly our original point when you and others said it was bad to give them a rallying cry issue here 
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May 11, 2024 23:37
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That's your root misunderstanding though. lovely corporate actions undercut actual progress by "proving" the chuds right. The current assholes are gone. What you want to avoid, as a company, is proving their terrified fantasies so we don't lose anybody else. We saw "Diversity is just a marketing gimmick" happen with the female warrior. "Big Woke is trying to replace normal people to destroy the family." ...And then here's Blizzard showing us their program to do that. loving it up is worse than not trying. It's Biden saying "poor kids are just as smart as white ones." People who aren't totally down the pipeline don't need companies greasing the slide.
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May 12, 2024 01:23
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moths posted:
But we didn't? That's the entire thing. It's a non issue that only chuds and some people ITT have taken issue with. This all comes down to your value judgment of the Wizkids PR statement, which if I remember correctly, you admitted to projecting others' interpretations of to their actual statement quote:
Blizzard didn't gently caress it up though. The cast of OW was still diverse and beloved by a wide swath of people. The messaging and tools they claimed to use was stupid, but that was just an embarrassing PR blunder. loving it up would be claiming they had a bunch of diversity initiatives but still ending up with a cast of 90% white hetero nobodies. moths posted:lovely corporate actions undercut actual progress by "proving" the chuds right. That's your root misunderstanding though. The chuds are going to claim they're right no matter what and corporate actions that increase representation are never undercutting progress just because it lets the chuds have something to scream about. . Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 01:32 on May 12, 2024 |
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May 12, 2024 01:27
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Can you two just kiss and take it into a closet or back room?
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May 12, 2024 04:17
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I would like to say, that the idea that queerness is being appropriated by corporations into a marketing demographic is not limited to chuds and random people on the Something Awful Forums Traditional Games forum.
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May 12, 2024 05:02
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I don't think anyone denies that.
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May 12, 2024 05:07
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Rainbow Capitalism is in fact a thing.
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May 12, 2024 05:10
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Nuns with Guns posted:Can you two just kiss and take it into a closet or back room?
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May 12, 2024 10:32
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Bottom Liner posted:Blizzard didn't gently caress it up though. I'm just going to accept that you've gone full contrarian and drop this. E: maybe I'm just not articulate enough. It seems clear to me, but feels like I'm not getting through at all. moths fucked around with this message at 13:21 on May 12, 2024 |
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May 12, 2024 13:02
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There should be, like, a site where there's just a button that switches between "nuh-uh" and "yuh-uh" and someone can send someone a link and they can just spend turns pressing that button.
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May 12, 2024 13:20
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Bottom Liner posted:
Also your argument is kind of dumb Moths. lovely chuds don't need any evidence to be proven right because in their minds they are completely right. Its amazing to see at times that even the least cynical and most well meaning attempts at diversity are called pandering to the woke censorship despite the fact that the people doing this want to. EDIT: Which isn't to say that I don't get your concerns either because yeah messing around with lovely people can cause untold amounts of chaos. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 12, 2024 |
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May 12, 2024 14:25
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In this case I don't think they are being contrarian. People are just talking around the difference in like Actual effect, Intent, and PR. PR is generally the problem.
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May 12, 2024 14:41
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MadScientistWorking posted:Isn't Overwatch's representation horrifically stereotypical and just very lazy which proves Moths point that yeah corporate pandering can be harmful? Sorta, it's hit or miss, they bring in consultants now after a few oopsies. It's largely fine tho.
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May 12, 2024 15:02
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Can't believe Overwatch would play into the harmful stereotype of drow being assassins like that. smdh
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May 12, 2024 15:21
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Castle Super Beast has not one but two breakdowns on the Blizzard diversity chart, and the problems can be summarized into bullet points. - The chart was almost certainly not used to develop Overwatch's launch cast, but was used to develop post-launch characters and was almost certainly used by executives to shoot down character ideas they didn't like - It's inherently a flawed idea from conception because the easiest way to make a cast that's diverse is to hire a diverse group of concept artists and developers, and instead Blizzard used a robot to try and quantify diversity - In addition to being a flawed concept, it's a human invention which means it's inherently susceptible to the unconscious biases of the people making it. The chart ranks being Korean as less diverse than being Japanese, for example, because Starcraft is huge in Korea. Middle Eastern is apparently more diverse than being black, and being a robot / animal is more diverse than both - Like all systems, it's capable of being hacked. Blizzard found out pretty quickly that there are invisible ways of adding diversity that don't involve modifying the character in any meaningful way, so they can sprinkle them onto the main cast in order to score cheap points (Tracer is bisexual! Soldier 76 is gay! Symmetra is autistic! Sojourn is robotic from the neck down which means she's technically disabled!)
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May 12, 2024 16:20
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MadScientistWorking posted:Also your argument is kind of dumb Moths. lovely chuds don't need any evidence to be proven right because in their minds they are completely right. Yeah I wonder if this was the disconnect all along. loving up PR isn't going to further radicalizing chuds. But regular folks are going to see Blizzard's diverse-o-tron and say, welp, maybe that's all this is. Target pulling Pride forever and Bud Light throwing that Influencer under the bus had the same bad effect: both signaled that (corporate) inclusivity and diversity are insincere gimmicks. By evaporating under pushback, it invited more widespread pushback. There's a straight line from Bud Light insincerely rainbow-washing their beer to video of Kid Rock gunning down a case of it. There's no harm in trying. But there's a lot of harm in half-assed trying, botching the PR, and sending the totally opposite message. Bud Light and Target both taught that enough homophobia will silence folks. Blizzard might have set out to say "these are people who exist and deserve inclusion," but after showing off the software? The message becomes that a bot told them MORE QUEER ASIANS. Using the female fighter in marketing material rather than just including her says "this is all marketing." It all goes to discrediting sincere inclusion efforts, and does it more effectively than anything a chud could scream at his YouTube subscribers. These mistakes send the same message to an exponentially larger, non-radicalized audience.
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May 12, 2024 16:25
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moths posted:Yeah I wonder if this was the disconnect all along. Only on your end, because I've been saying that exact thing this whole time Bottom Liner posted:The chuds are going to claim they're right no matter what quote:
Yes, if you give in to the chuds it is a bad move and look. This conversation was never about giving in to chud demands, it was about whether the very idea of corporate led diversity and marketing is still a good thing or not. Using two huge failures of that is not proof that the Wizkids PR statement is bad or a takedown of all the innocuous marketing efforts that never have problems. Bud Light and Target's efforts weren't bad because they marketed to those demographics, they were bad because they didn't stand by it. quote:Using the female fighter in marketing material rather than just including her says "this is all marketing." Again, your ideal quiet representation is still not enough to appease the chuds and will still cause all of the uproar. It is much better for companies to state policies that make it clear to the chuds that they are not the target audience, not welcome, etc on top of making these hobbies more welcoming for everyone else. Everything is marketing, but I'd much prefer that marketing to shape the space for the better.
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May 12, 2024 18:14
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The full on chuds are a lost cause. gently caress them. It's the people on the fringe of chud-dom that you want to keep from falling into the hole. The people who could be convinced one way or the other don't need to be shown evidence that will push them towards the chud side, and stuff like half-assed diversity initiatives and the liberal versions of "rolling coal" don't help this target audience at all.
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May 12, 2024 18:35
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I honestly could care less if people get radicalized off o stuff like this because I doubt that they were actually moderates in this situation. The problem is that on a fundamental level you end up with marginalized people having to bear the blow back and harassment from what often cynical ploys.
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May 12, 2024 18:36
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Staying quiet to keep the chuds calm DOES NOT WORK. It gives them the space.
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May 12, 2024 18:58
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Bottom Liner posted:Staying quiet to keep the chuds calm DOES NOT WORK. It gives them the space. Can you quote the post that gives you the impression that moths, or anyone, wants to stay quiet for the sake of keeping the chuds calm. Because they've been saying a lot of other things but you keep arguing against a philosophy of appeasement that no one is endorsing.
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May 12, 2024 19:12
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The entire argument is that proactive inclusive marketing is harmful because it causes backlash and it will radicalize fringe moderates. Moths is also concerned about the optics of marketing being “just marketing” but that is obvious but not inherently bad. If it’s going to exist, it should be towards a good cause instead of outright courting Nazis. moths posted:
Like this. What does this accomplish? Chuds will still be mad and rally around it.. Having a statement that says “yes the character is a female” does not harm anyone that likes the change. Actively make the chuds feel unwanted in the space. I don’t care if it comes from marketing ploys or local game organizers. It will take all levels to make meaningful changes in this space. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 19:23 on May 12, 2024 |
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May 12, 2024 19:15
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Bottom Liner posted:The entire argument is that proactive inclusive marketing is harmful because it causes backlash and it will radicalize fringe moderates. Also the cynicism comes from the fact that on a fundamental level these companies can be doing tangible things to help women, help LGBTQA+ people, and help minorities. Hire them to write. Promote charities. But this really doesn't in the long run do much. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 20:21 on May 12, 2024 |
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May 12, 2024 20:14
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MadScientistWorking posted:Moths is completely correct about the backlash part. The backlash happens with or without inclusive marketing. That is my entire point. Look at how these spaces have been for the past 50 years. Vulnerable and underrepresented groups are already pushed out or targeted when they try to join gaming spaces all the time. White male dominated strongholds. Look at GW before they took a loud anti-chud stance. Now that they say "gently caress you nazis, you are explicitly not welcome in our hobby" they're all leaving in droves to other games that market specifically to them (or still buy stuff and sit in their basements alone at least). Everyone at every level has to be loudly anti-chud and that includes marketing efforts. To say nothing of the positive effects that representation has on bringing in new people (and marketing is often the main way you reach new customers, that's the entire point). There's nothing more to say on this topic and clearly no one is going to change their minds. I will continue to cheer for any efforts that make chuds feel unwelcome and like they don't own these spaces any more.
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May 12, 2024 20:24
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Bottom Liner posted:. Look at GW before they took a loud anti-chud stance. Now that they say "gently caress you nazis, you are explicitly not welcome in our hobby" they're all leaving in droves to other games that market specifically to them (or still buy stuff and sit in their basements alone at least). Err what other games are marketing towards that slice of the market? Because I wish to avoid it.
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May 13, 2024 07:06
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IIRC it was Mantic and/or Privateer (both?) were leaning hard into the macho no wokeness here stuff a few years back. I saw both being mentioned with language that implied they weren't "woke games yet" during the GW outrage a few weeks ago.
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May 13, 2024 08:31
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therpgsite, a place of very normal people who have very normal RPG discussions, have a very normal thread stickied somewhere where someone's done a list of game companies divided up into green/orange/red in terms of political dodginess. Now, to give them credit, they stuck Varg Vikernes in the red section. But he's basically the only fashy (self-)publisher in there. More or less everyone else in the red zone is there on charges of excessive wokeness. The green zone is occupied by folk who have either stayed scrupulously quiet on issues which might annoy chuds or have been actively "no politics! (by which we mean no politics of the sort we dislike, wink wink)".
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May 13, 2024 12:13
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Warthur posted:therpgsite, a place of very normal people who have very normal RPG discussions, have a very normal thread stickied somewhere where someone's done a list of game companies divided up into green/orange/red in terms of political dodginess. Found it, thanks. Comstar fucked around with this message at 12:35 on May 13, 2024 |
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May 13, 2024 12:32
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