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Kanos posted:Gelt has come a real long way since TWW1 release, when he was unquestionably the most unplayable piece of poo poo lord in the entire game. To be fair, wasn't every single caster lord absolutely garbage?
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Sep 16, 2020 18:52
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memories of playing radious mod with sigvald, soloing an entire army on fast forward for 20 minutes
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Sep 16, 2020 19:04
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Most caster lords are still more garbage than melee lords just because of how much you have to invest into them to make them great compared to how melee lords are with no investment.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:05
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Only downside of Gelt is starting so close to the orc/dwarf deathbowl and to Mannfred. Depending what the AI chooses to do you could be war decced by greenskins and VC by like turn 15
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Sep 16, 2020 19:12
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dogstile posted:I think that's a problem with orcs in general right now. Goblins are ridiculously strong even without the cauldron buffs. A cheap unit that can tarpit extremely well and has ridiculous leadership because of goblintide? Why would you ever not take them? Elite greenskin armies are just three stacks of goblins moving from settlement to settlement and drowning them in the greentide. I kinda feel like although the Greenskin update has buffed the faction it hasn't really fixed a lot of its underlying problems, of which that's one. edit: I think one issue might be that they suffer from the same thing as the Skaven, which is that some of the mechanics that made them unique on tabletop just don't translate well to a video game. Specifically Animosity for greenskins and the chronic unreliability of Skaven weapons/artillery. Both those are very flavourful rules that have big effects on the game, but both would be frustrating rather than funny if implemented in Total War. Zephro fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 19:12
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terrorist ambulance posted:Only downside of Gelt is starting so close to the orc/dwarf deathbowl and to Mannfred. Depending what the AI chooses to do you could be war decced by greenskins and VC by like turn 15 
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Sep 16, 2020 19:13
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That plus you scroll away to micro your cavalry and come back to find theyve been charged by a level 2 melee hero and flattened 
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Sep 16, 2020 19:15
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Zephro posted:Yeah I feel like it's fine for factions to have two separate development paths or ways you can build armies but I feel like the Greenskin distinction between goblins and orcs is kinda meaningless now with all the gobbo buffs. Orcs are meant to be big, meat-shieldy melee troops, but if Goblins can do that too then what's the difference beyond the unit model? Orcs suffer because there's not really a role for shock infantry in current WH2. Infantry just simply isn't there for killing things so if your choice is cheap meatshields with shields and tons of buffs vs more expensive meatshields with less ranged survivability and slightly higher killing power, I'm going with the gobbos.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:16
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Zephro posted:Yeah I feel like it's fine for factions to have two separate development paths or ways you can build armies but I feel like the Greenskin distinction between goblins and orcs is kinda meaningless now with all the gobbo buffs. Orcs are meant to be big, meat-shieldy melee troops, but if Goblins can do that too then what's the difference beyond the unit model? Could you refresh my memory of what animosity does?
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Sep 16, 2020 19:24
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Ravenfood posted:Orcs suffer because there's not really a role for shock infantry in current WH2. Infantry just simply isn't there for killing things so if your choice is cheap meatshields with shields and tons of buffs vs more expensive meatshields with less ranged survivability and slightly higher killing power, I'm going with the gobbos. I mean you're probably not wrong, but you better believe I'm pounding the gently caress out of any Black Orcs I see before they reach my lines. Those guys are dangerous.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:25
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I dont know posted:I was going to say what about Sigvald. Then I remembered there was no healing cap at release, and properly kitted, Sigvald could solo most armies given enough time just because they couldn't damage race his regen. IIRC back in the halcyon days of 2016 both Sigvald and Kholek could become functionally immortal in campaign pretty easily. Sigvald with his items and Kholek with his 100% everything resists.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:27
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Could you refresh my memory of what animosity does? Zephro fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 19:37
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Also i can usually figure out who each race represents, but who or what are Greenskins? Mongol hordes maybe?
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Sep 16, 2020 19:41
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Also i can usually figure out who each race represents, but who or what are Greenskins? Mongol hordes maybe?
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Sep 16, 2020 19:43
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https://youtu.be/8yfcwY2xLGE
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Sep 16, 2020 19:44
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I like playing gelt but I admit I don't really like him as a lord. I'd rather have a fire wizard.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:46
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OwlFancier posted:I like playing gelt but I admit I don't really like him as a lord. I'd rather have a fire wizard. Same. I wish I could have caster lords for more factions, just because they're funner to use. Caster heroes I'm not so fond of.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:50
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Zephro posted:It's something like units over a certain (not especially large) size have a chance to do Orky things each turn rather than following your orders, like beating up the nearest other unit of greenskins, charging the nearest enemy, etc. Very Orky but probably not very fun if you put it into Total Warhammer. In tabletop it was enormously frustrating. Like you had to roll dice to figure out if you could move your units during the move phase, bad results meant bad poo poo would happen to you, and characters could kill your own models to restore you to a normal move phase if you rolled poorly. In flavour it was fun, the various animosity results had fun lore descriptions about wacky greenskin shenanigans, but in practice it was terrible. The game had six total turns and movement was only relevant for the first few. It basically just denied the greenskins key mechanics for no benefit, based on D6 rolls. e: I played TK, goblins, and high elves over my teenage tabletop years and while the first two sucked, at least with TK you knew what you were getting in to and could try to make it work. With greenskins you could play the perfect game and still eat poo poo. High elves were of course, high elves. I just mulched swordmasters into everything and casted regrowth. ASF dumbshits. Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 16, 2020 |
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Sep 16, 2020 19:59
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jokes posted:Same. I wish I could have caster lords for more factions, just because they're funner to use. Caster heroes I'm not so fond of. You might like this mod, adds several spellcaster lords to several factions, I get a lot of use out of the Empire's caster lords. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1243153086
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Sep 16, 2020 20:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia8DtwZ5aXk Seems about right.
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Sep 16, 2020 22:59
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Arcsquad12 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia8DtwZ5aXk
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Sep 16, 2020 23:19
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Jarvisi posted:To be fair, wasn't every single caster lord absolutely garbage? Mannfred always was, and still arguably is, the single best lord in the game. Amazing stats, items, a dragon mount and two of the best schools of magic in their entirety.
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Sep 16, 2020 23:39
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Zore posted:Mannfred always was, and still arguably is, the single best lord in the game. This is probably true.
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Sep 16, 2020 23:46
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I've got a hot take here. Empire Knights are really, really good. In Empire fort defence battles, you dump them out your gates immediately and lead the enemy on a merry chase while your archers and handgunners wreak havoc on the foe that can't keep up. Hit and run attacks on their ranged and artillery and they can do entirely disproportionate amounts of damage.
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Sep 17, 2020 00:03
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Zore posted:Mannfred always was, and still arguably is, the single best lord in the game. I appreciate how he's a vampire who runs around in what is effectively an armored muscle shirt.
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Sep 17, 2020 00:26
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Zore posted:Mannfred always was, and still arguably is, the single best lord in the game. top tier are all vampires. mannfred, vlad, harkon, noctilus, all real strong ikit and imrik get very silly in the campaign, but in multiplayer or less min-maxed campaigns the vampires are so strong terrorist ambulance fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Sep 17, 2020 |
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Sep 17, 2020 03:03
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I don't think Mannfred or Vlad are generally considered super strong picks for MP. Mannfred because he just becomes way too expensive once you start adding on all those skills/spells, and without them he doesn't do that much over a normal lord (and is missing some of the great items certain generic Vampire lords have), and Vlad because he's a pure combat lord stuck without a mount or all that much mass. So Mannfred's a classic "eggs in one basket" issue, and Vlad is just in trouble due to the dominance of monster mounts for combat lords - though he's still in a much better place than most of the other lords in a similar situation. Luthor on the other hand seems to be considered INCREDIBLY strong, for a slew of reasons. His stats are decent on their own, but his mount also adds poison meaning they're far better than they seem to be when it comes to duels. He regenerates naturally in addition to The Hunger, and his pistol does very good damage, has a nasty rider on top of that damage, can be fired while moving, and has an absurd amount of ammunition. It also fires in melee, meaning he's really got an additional high damage attack (this is supposedly being fixed, I think?). Oh, and for some insane reason the damage boost from Extra Powder apparently also applies to the terrorgheist's breath weapon. He's not even that expensive, relatively speaking.
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Sep 17, 2020 06:56
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Lord Koth posted:Oh, and for some insane reason the damage boost from Extra Powder apparently also applies to the terrorgheist's breath weapon. He's not even that expensive, relatively speaking.
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Sep 17, 2020 09:02
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Luthor is one of the few lords in the game that actually fights alongside his mount instead of being a fancy ornament while the monster does all the work.
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Sep 17, 2020 09:29
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absolutely no shame in this loss as face melty as gelt is even he can't wreck three armies by himself Comrade Blyatlov fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Sep 17, 2020 |
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Sep 17, 2020 12:49
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Jarvisi posted:To be fair, wasn't every single caster lord absolutely garbage? At TWW1 release, the lords with spell access were Gelt, Kemmler, Archaon, Mannfred, and Azhag(sort of). The latter three are very capable of fighting, which leaves Gelt and Kemmler - both sucked, but Kemmler had Lore of Vampires(which was one of the two lores in the game that was actually good at the time) and Gelt had Lore of Metal(which was almost entirely completely useless at the time), which decided the issue nicely. Mannfred in particular has always been one of the beastliest lords in the entire game. Archaon has also always been a really, really good campaign lord(who, unlike Mannfred, is unfortunately stuck in a terrible campaign faction).
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Sep 17, 2020 13:35
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I've got a hot take here. Empire Knights are incredibly effective for cost both in single and multiplayer because of their great armor. You can use them to defend flanks, run down archers, or just some good old hammer and anvil, and they take minimal damage as long as they don't get trapped.
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Sep 17, 2020 13:45
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Empire knights getting more armor than Grail knights is just sickening. They are one of the cheapest shock cavalry, but still one of the heaviest armored.
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Sep 17, 2020 13:52
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:absolutely no shame in this loss May want to try replying that one. I honestly think it's probably winnable if you corner camp and run gelt out in front to harass them as they come, and micro the grenade outsiders on clumped up orcs
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Sep 17, 2020 14:04
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I dont know posted:Empire knights getting more armor than Grail knights is just sickening. They are one of the cheapest shock cavalry, but still one of the heaviest armored. That's because Bretonnian equipment is dogshit and they rely solely on the defensive power of magical moonbeams.
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Sep 17, 2020 14:08
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I dont know posted:Empire knights getting more armor than Grail knights is just sickening. They are one of the cheapest shock cavalry, but still one of the heaviest armored. This is actually one of the things in the game that's still old tabletop accurate. The Empire, due to their friendship with the dwarfs giving them smithing knowledge, had unique access to full plate armor that was better than most factions' generic "heavy armor", matched only by stuff like Chaos armor and Gromril armor. This meant that Empire Knights were always better armored than any Bretonnian cav.
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Sep 17, 2020 14:09
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Kanos posted:This is actually one of the things in the game that's still old tabletop accurate. The Empire, due to their friendship with the dwarfs giving them smithing knowledge, had unique access to full plate armor that was better than most factions' generic "heavy armor", matched only by stuff like Chaos armor and Gromril armor. This meant that Empire Knights were always better armored than any Bretonnian cav. Bretonnians are armored with the power of JESUS.
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Sep 17, 2020 14:36
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empire knights being very heavily armoured but comparatively less skilled feels perfectly fine and appropriate. they're like Medieval 2's merchant cavalry
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Sep 17, 2020 14:49
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Brettonia runs on a lovely pseudo-slave economy that basically forces people into two classes, the oppressed and the oppressors. They don't have room for innovators and it makes total sense that the Empire is more technologically advanced, especially since they are far more willing to interact and trade with Dwarves and Elves because foreign ideas don't represent an existential threat that could topple their society. So the dynamic makes perfect sense. Brettonian knights are more skilled because that's basically their only purpose in life, but their society can't provide better equipment. I do think that there would be room for a unit of rich or particularly well-off knights that could afford to buy the best equipment from the Empire, or Marienburg. It should obviously be limited so you can't just spam them, but some sort of tomb kings style building that gives you +1 limit each time you build it or something.
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Sep 17, 2020 16:19
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peer posted:empire knights being very heavily armoured but comparatively less skilled feels perfectly fine and appropriate. they're like Medieval 2's merchant cavalry Yeah they're (relatively) just some dude on a horse with armor and a lance, compared to Bretonnians who are birthed by a damsel riding side saddle on a noble pegasus in the middle of a charge into rebellious peasants and enjoy lifelong training on how to ride horses in order to spit on and charge into masses of poor people.Or Chaos knights who have been locked in one extremely long charge for 30000 years.
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Sep 17, 2020 16:56
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