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Hadlock posted:Yeah the correct answer to "how much are my pre IPO options worth?" the practical answer is, "zero". That's the sober truth. Your options didn't pay out at a change-of-control event? WTF?
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Jun 25, 2021 14:51
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Omne posted:Important to note in my circumstance that I'm not taking less salary for options; my salary will be increasing 25%. What I was trying to compare was options in a late-stage, $2B company that at most recent 409A are valued at $250k vs. options in a post-series A-but-profitable company. Dunno how the value of the company you're currently at would work, but you're moving to a job where the options value has a 99% chance of never being worth more than zero. Doesn't matter if it's profitable right now or not. In the long term it's extremely unlikely you'll see any meaningful money from those options.
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Jun 25, 2021 15:59
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If you have no control over when you can get them paid out, "options" are lottery tickets and valued at functionally $0.
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Jun 25, 2021 16:03
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Omne posted:Your options didn't pay out at a change-of-control event? WTF? Depends on how the acquisition/merger was structured and how/if the plan defines change-of-control. I'm very surprised the plan wasn't restructured, since executives generally have a huge chunk of their comp in these options/phantom units and probably wouldn't be ok losing them without some sort of parachute...and they typically are in a position to influence the future state. Cynical me suspects there was a replacement plan put in place but a bunch of people were left out.
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Jun 25, 2021 17:48
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Omne posted:Your options didn't pay out at a change-of-control event? WTF? Nope It was two weak companies merging in a no cash deal so their 409a valuation didn't get triggered I had an option to cash out my held shares but no payout on options vested or otherwise And yeah, CEO and a handful of other people got paid out. Contract went into luke warm detail that he'd negotiated during the hiring phase a pay out on any change of control event, pending shareholder approval Hadlock fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 08:30
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Update: Managed to negotiate both more options and a higher salary. So now the increase in salary is greater than the salary at my first job, which feels pretty good. Now time to actually sign this thing
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Jun 29, 2021 00:12
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Omne posted:Update: Managed to negotiate both more options and a higher salary. So now the increase in salary is greater than the salary at my first job, which feels pretty good. drat man, nice going.
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Jun 29, 2021 03:46
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Had a phone screen with HR today for a sales analyst at a medical device company and was asked my salary requirements. I deflected by saying this is a new industry for me and I would need to learn more. She gave me a range of $68-$70k. She did not ask me if that was an acceptable range and we moved on to the rest of her questions. I currently make $57k and glassdoor has the salary for this position group for the company at $71k. I assume she was impressed with me because she had me schedule an interview with the hiring manager for later this week. I am anticipating asking for $80k if I receive an offer and I would be willing to accept somewhere in the $70k-80k range. Does that sound reasonable?
Javes fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jun 29, 2021 |
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Jun 29, 2021 20:22
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Javes posted:Had a phone screen with HR today for a sales analyst at a medical device company and was asked my salary requirements. I deflected by saying this is a new industry for me and I would need to learn more. She gave me a range of $68-$70k. She did not ask me if that was an acceptable range and we moved on to the rest of her questions. I currently make $57k and glassdoor has the salary for this position group for the company at $71k. I assume she was impressed with me because she had me schedule an interview with the hiring manager for later this week. I am anticipating asking for $80k if I receive an offer and I would be willing to accept somewhere in the $70k-80k range. Does that sound reasonable?
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Jun 29, 2021 20:46
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This isn't the general career advice thread, but my current concern revolves around maybe getting paid more, so it seems appropriate. Please let me know if there's a better thread for this. Quick backstory: I'm an IT guy, mostly servers, networks, cloud services, getting everything to work together, that kind of thing. In early 2019, I had topped out promotion availability at the MSP that helped me learn everything i know, with the encouragement of my partner to chase getting paid what I was worth. Went from Senior Systems Engineer at $75k to Systems Engineer at $105k at a new company in June 2019. June 2020, one of my clients poached me from the new MSP to help run their internal IT. Systems Engineer at 105k to Manager, Systems Engineering at 125k. I have no idea why they gave me that title or what it really means. I have no one that reports directly to me. Our company is a holding company for like 5 operating companies across the US and Europe. There are maybe 15 employees of my company. I answer to a Director and the CFO (who the director reports to), and maybe the CEO if he wants something. My duties include overseeing and doing all the work on all servers, networks, user computers, and about 50% of our cloud service stuff (azure and 365, but not the ERP system or HR stuff like ADP). It's a situation where I tell the Director what to buy, then implement and document it. I don't get much guidance on projects or duties aside from what's important to the Board (and thus the Director), so I basically call my own shots and do what I want. Everyone seems happy. In the last year, I went from having 350 or so users to maybe 750, via growth and acquisitions, and the back end has gotten more complex to manage while being more powerful and efficient for the workforce. Since I hadn't been in for a full year, I missed out on any pay increase, as the entire company has reviews and raises in January yearly. I would like to approach them for a 20% bump. I quoted the 125k figure, and eventually got it, based on being a very good Sr Systems Engineer in my geographical area. I'm not sure if I should approach my boss or the CFO (his boss, who I have a good working relationship with), and have no idea how to approach them. I'm way out of my depth working in an actual corporate structure, as my previous employers have been privately owned shops. I would like to gun for 150k, but don't have the ability to make any kind of ultimatum - I would probably struggle to find the kind of freedom that I currently have, at my current salary, on the open market. Anyone have advice on approaching leadership and making a strong case for a 20% raise out of the normal increase period based on company growth, job duties, and title?
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Jun 30, 2021 04:30
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Dik Hz posted:Sounds good to me. There's a chance they won't budge off $70k, so you should probably figure out if you're willing to take it at $70k if they don't move. But $80k isn't an unreasonable ask if you have a couple years of experience. if they won't budge, isn't this the point where you start negotiating over benefits? What topics are good to ask about besides like, extra vacation? Asking mainly I've seen the thread focus on salary, not so much on the perks adjacent. Any tips there? TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 05:37
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TheParadigm posted:Asking mainly I've seen the thread focus on salary, not so much on the perks adjacent. Any tips there? Most companies are not going to negotiate on benefits and time off. Their policies are set and you are not important enough for special treatment. You can certainly ask and maybe be pleasantly surprised, but don’t count on it. But most companies will throw more cash at you in salary and signing bonuses instead, even if it actually costs them more than an extra week of vacation would.
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Jun 30, 2021 05:44
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It might be possible to get extra vacation if they link vacation days to time at company. I think that's probably the most common case for getting extra vacation, where they start you off with same days as a person who's been there for x number of years.
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Jun 30, 2021 06:11
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Silly Newbie posted:June 2020, one of my clients poached me from the new MSP to help run their internal IT. Systems Engineer at 105k to Manager, Systems Engineering at 125k. Since you are a manager, working alone, here's what I would do, having no additional details about your situation 1. You are a major bus factor. If you left tomorrow they would be completely hosed. One person for 750 users is extremely good utilization of their $125k 2. Use the bus factor to your advantage. You can't walk in and be like, "you'd be hosed without me, pay up bitches", but you can show them the problem, and present a solution 3. Tell them your workload + bus factor requires that you hire a Jr system eng for on call/sick day/vacation etc, and while they're making room in the budget for another headcount, as a sign that you're committed to staying there for the long haul, you'd like a 20% bump as your role has doubled + you're managing/training a junior now Be like, "this is my vision for my team, eventually we'd have four people, but right now we can just barely get away with one new hire. Here's how the team will look in 4 years.... *does hand wavey motion*" and then reiterate how important it is to keep productivity high, what a contractor would cost to come in and fix things last minute, and salary band for the junior. Now your 20% raise is looking really tiny After your whole presentation, either 1. They bite on your plan, and then you bump your raise to 30% 2. They decline your plan, and you suggest the 20% raise anyways due to the stuff you just outlined about growing work responsibility and business risk, or whatever, since you're doing this without a junior Just spitballing. I mean, if you're managing something (that's your title in name at least, right), basically that whole vertical is your own small business, you need to sell them on the idea that they're buying something, and part of that is your vision + execution. Sell them a business plan. Feel free to write out a 5 page plan with budget, risks etc, cost outlines. Just asking for more money isn't going to get you very far. Hadlock fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jun 30, 2021 |
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Jun 30, 2021 11:05
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And in terms of how to do that.....start with your immediate manager. Do not go directly to the CEO first, as that will likely destroy your relationship with your boss
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Jun 30, 2021 14:25
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That's really helpful, thank you. I'll see if I can come up with some kind of formal plan for the future. That's theoretically my boss's job, but he can't see more than the current project, so the whole department sort of lands on me. One issue I do have is that I've met my boss in person exactly once, when I was still with the MSP they poached me from, whereas I have a good relationship with his boss (the CFO) and that guy's boss (CEO), who work in an office near me, where I also maintain an office. I've mentioned in passing to both my boss and the CFO that I'd like to talk compensation, and dropped the 20% number, but nothing formal. I left this out before - our little holding company is owned by a major capital investment firm - does that change any advice? I'm slowly learning how Corp structures really work.
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Jun 30, 2021 16:29
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Just adding to the above plan: do a risk assessment of some kind for your area. I work in information security, so that's where I'd start, but it could just as well be a business risk assessment or something. This should highlight all the things you stop from going horribly wrong, and also highlight that they will go wrong without you
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Jun 30, 2021 21:09
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BonHair posted:Just adding to the above plan: do a risk assessment of some kind for your area. I work in information security, so that's where I'd start, but it could just as well be a business risk assessment or something. This should highlight all the things you stop from going horribly wrong, and also highlight that they will go wrong without you Thanks, that's a good plan too, helps me organize what kind of hard data I can present. I'm responsible for management and implementation of all it sec, infrastructure, and cloud stuff, so I can put a wide range down on paper.
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Jun 30, 2021 22:25
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So the interview process is going to start with Company B, finally. Reading back over the OP, but this whole thing has been so disjointed I have no idea now what their internal recruiter even knows. I guess I will still try to deflect the salary question? They already know what they’re paying me as a contractor, and they will need to beat my current salary and match my vacation, but I know that’s the goal not the opener.
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Jul 1, 2021 19:03
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:So the interview process is going to start with Company B, finally. Reading back over the OP, but this whole thing has been so disjointed I have no idea now what their internal recruiter even knows. I guess I will still try to deflect the salary question? They already know what they’re paying me as a contractor, and they will need to beat my current salary and match my vacation, but I know that’s the goal not the opener. They’ll never pay you the same rate as your contracting rate as an employee. They likely don’t know you salary but probably have a decent idea (unless you get way over/underpaid). Deflect salary talk until the last session. Keep saying you first want to see if it’s a match and can only judge compensation based on the total package. If they keep insisting ask them what the range is for the position. Remember that you don’t have to disclose your current salary. If they push for that info tell them you’re looking to get compensated for the role you are interviewing for, not the role you currently have.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:04
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In my limited experience, I've seen that co-workers that convert from agency contractors to FTE's usually take a small reduction in cash compensation, or at best it stays the same. Overall compensation jumps way up of course with our generous benefit package, but cash usually doesn't.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:11
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If they offer you a reduced salary, but with more benefits, you can probably do some math and negotiate up just enough that your take home pay is the same (which isn't that hard because W2 contractor insurance is usually the full amount of the premium and the FTE benefit will not be). I've done that before in a contractor (W2) to FTE conversion and it was not an issue. But yeah, at best your take home will be about the same, but now you can like... take days off without having to think about how much it's gonna hurt your wallet.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:27
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Well the contracting gig is running concurrently to a FTE position I already have with another company. They agreed to it at the outset, with the plan being to bring me over to FTE, but that has been delayed a few times. It might have been delayed further but I told them both jobs wanted me in-office 6/1, and I couldn’t be two places. Then the FTE role suddenly materialized (and has progressed really oddly). Anyway, I will deflect on the pay/comp, honestly if they aim low, they won’t even beat my current position, at which point I’m not sure what to do. I found a back door source that lists the range for the FTE position up to 115 (which my boss said they won’t realistically do). I make 88.5 in my current spot and $43/hr contract (thru staffing agency which is probably a mistake but didn’t count on this continuing). Being able to do both is great, neither takes anywhere near FT (I only charge 20 hrs/week to contract). But if this conversion only offers 90 and possibly less vacation, they’ll either need to adjust up or I guess I leave it. I did have an informal offer for 110-120 for another role, and told the contracting employer about it, which is why I don’t know now who knows what and where that leaves me. That ship sailed (another screwy process), but I put the info out to my contracting boss to see if they would be somewhat competitive. If anyone is cringing, yes, I am quite bad at all this. Much obliged for the help though, as always.
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Jul 1, 2021 20:58
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LochNessMonster posted:Deflect salary talk until the last session. Keep saying you first want to see if it’s a match and can only judge compensation based on the total package. This is a very decent summary of some of the most important talking points from the thread, and a practical way to relay them to one's recruiter. Thanks.
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Jul 1, 2021 21:29
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Contracting depends. if you are a stand alone 1099 you will not make near the same. If you work for an agency though you are making way less as they take their cut. You can potentially make as much or more in the second situation.
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Jul 2, 2021 00:59
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I got an offer! I’ve kicked the can of salary negotiation all the way down to this final step, not saying a number or disclosing current salary. Going to have a call with them in about 3 hours to hammer things out. Some things: - I have no BANTA. Current job pays near poverty. Potential employers also know I’ve been applying to their company for almost an entire year now because I really want to work for them. -I have a list of rebuttals to say if they ask me to tell them a salary first. -Thinking of tacking on 2-3k of their number if it’s in the range of what I’m willing to accept, because surely they couldn’t drop someone over 2-3k a year? -Glassdoor salaries for this role are low in confidence. Don’t know how accurate those numbers are. What do you think, goons?
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Jul 7, 2021 19:34
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There's no reason they should know you have no BATNA. Although if you've already communicated desperation to work for them, that sure doesn't help.quote:-Thinking of tacking on 2-3k of their number if it’s in the range of what I’m willing to accept, because surely they couldn’t drop someone over 2-3k a year? Ask for 10K and let them come up. Don't worry about them withdrawing an offer over 10K. Any company that would do that is a hellhole.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:40
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10k more even if I have some idea about the pay band? Ideal is 60k, the pay band for a similar role at the company tops out at 63k.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:49
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Re: equity chat - Does anyone have experience with stock in a 100% employee owned company? I can’t find details online on what type of plan they have, which seems to be, well, important. I’m in round two with a ~100 person tech company that has been around since 2014 and is self funded through contracts. The position is very senior so I’d get a chunk of equity, but they’ve only mentioned a # of shares, and that it acts as a deferred bonus. So I’d like to dig a bit and see what I should be asking. I suppose at a minimum is what the structure is and how/when shares are valued? The rest of the comp. package is very competitive, and thanks to this thread I had it branded in my mind to let them throw out a potential range, which was a good 10% above what I thought it would be. Then did the “I think that is good for moving forward but obviously will need to be part of the discussion once I’m through interviewing and have a better understanding of the position and responsibilities.”
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Jul 7, 2021 21:56
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buglord posted:10k more even if I have some idea about the pay band? is this a public employer or not? i seem to recall somehow that it is, but can't really remember.
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Jul 7, 2021 22:01
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buglord posted:10k more even if I have some idea about the pay band? Yes. We are currently in a tight labor market and if they’re any good the worst they’ll say is “no”
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Jul 7, 2021 22:01
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I just made an offer to a guy who put $65-75K on the application. We offered him $75K. I hope he asks for more as I have room for more (he will be 3rd from the bottom out of 37 people in the grade). I probably would have started at $78K if he hadn't put down a number, HR basically said well he only asked for $75K.
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Jul 7, 2021 22:01
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Crazyweasel posted:Re: equity chat - Does anyone have experience with stock in a 100% employee owned company? I can’t find details online on what type of plan they have, which seems to be, well, important. what is the corporate structure, what rights does that equity give you, can you liquidate it, does it pay a dividend, blah blah blah. might be a bit early for that and i would probably wait until receiving an actual offer that contained equity - it would be fairly presumptuous before that, i think. get a tax lawyer
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Jul 7, 2021 22:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:is this a public employer or not? i seem to recall somehow that it is, but can't really remember. Hah yeah I’ve been in both job threads with times I got really close to getting the job but this time it stuck. This is a private sector employer. The other one I got real close on was public.
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Jul 7, 2021 22:16
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Hadlock posted:There's a position, and I found out that an H-1B holder having the position, which means their 2019 salary is public record So update, the 2019 h1b salary was 1000, they offered 1020 and 15,000 shares, I countered with a range of 1130-1220 and 20,000 shares, citing inflation on the H1-B number + triplebyte and... angellist salary data for my area. Going above $1100 required sign off by the CTO, shares from the CFO. They came back and said they would do $1220 and 15,000 shares if I didn't push on shares. I said yes, and then the next day asked for signing bonus of 20%, they countered with $0, I pushed for a signing bonus of $10,000 and they countered with $5000 so we settled on that. Prior to this I was making $920, so wasn't especially torn up about getting a lovely signing bonus. End result: 25% pay bump from my previous place, which is pretty great as I already have a house and all the big-ticket toy items, this raise is all going straight into my vacation home/retirement fund  Moral of the story: always negotiate, and inflate your research numbers by 15% because in verbal negotiations, you're not required to cite your sources. I ended up about 12% higher than I was predicting I would end up.
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Jul 7, 2021 22:49
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I've been told that I need to post this story in this thread as a lesson to some people. I was told in early 2019 that I was going to be promoted and given a significant 25% raise. When the time came, my title stayed the same and a 10% raise. I expressed my concern and my boss was all "it's out of my hands!" In July, i saw the same situation happen in another department and the person reacted by applying for a different role. They ended up getting what they wanted, so I called my managers bluff and started interviewing for different roles internally. In September, I got the promotion and what was promised to me. In March 2020, My boss left the department and I was promoted again to replace her. They Demoted someone from a company we integrated with at the same time to work for me (despite being more qualified) and she hosed around until she quit in December. When I tried to talk to people internally about replacing her, our business partner FREAKED OUT and tried to get me demoted. She failed. I hired a Staffing Agency temp to fill the gap, and she is awesome. March 2021 I get my review - performance is awesome but I "gossip" specifically referring to when the BP freaked out....so i get no raise. May, I am told that the Temp I hired is going to brought on full time...as my boss. The grass is always greener
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Jul 8, 2021 00:04
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That is a wild story Pillowpants.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:26
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Pillowpants posted:I've been told that I need to post this story in this thread as a lesson to some people.  I don't . . . I . . . yeah. I have no clue what sort of message I'm supposed to take away from this story lmao. It's like one of those stories just written to be a mindfuck at the end lmao Maybe the only way to finish that one is "The End. No Moral." 
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Jul 8, 2021 00:29
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I encouraged him to post here when he mentioned off the cuff in the Corporate thread that he'd accepted a promotion after interviewing for other jobs, but I had no idea the entire thing including the interviews was internal. That is one unholy clusterfuck.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:45
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Hi thread, Been reading the thread as I was expecting an offer soon. Just got an offer from a tech company in Austin. Before I read this thread I would have just accepted what they gave me but I countered. They offered: $112K base $81K RSU 5-10% bonus I countered with $145k base $120K RSU 10% bonus I wasn’t expecting the bonus as a percentage so that threw me off. But levels.FYI shows that position as averaging $135K~ in this area, and that’s my goal so I figure asking for $145K will make them offer me $130K. We’ll see what happens. Y’all are great.
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Jul 8, 2021 00:47
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