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SirSamVimes posted:What? No he doesn't, he gets crystallised because Elidibus overdraws from the power of the Crystal Tower to spam summons and G'raha is the one who suffers for it because Elidibus is using the blood from the vessel to do the summoning. G'raha is already crystalizing every time he exerts magical power. It happens every time we cut to him working on the blood transfusions. He's already, bit by bit, sacrificing himself. And using the tower to kill Elidibus is what finishes him off at the end of the day. It's still a sacrifice, imo. Chillgamesh posted:The thing about Hydaelyn is that Her reason for being is "keep Zodiark in a headlock". Both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were manifested by people with noble intentions, but neither of them have a reason to exist any more; they're both just ancient constructs that the world would be better off without, and whose continued existence puts everyone at risk. In what way is Hydaelyn putting the world at risk?
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Jun 2, 2021 22:15
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multijoe posted:I wonder if the people who were split into fourteen and may or may not have had their consciousnesses destroyed or radically altered consented to that too Wasn’t really the plan. But some degree of overriding consent is always in the cards when you’re planning to stop Nazis from doing Nazi things. The powerful tend not to relinquish power willingly. If you’re not cool with that you’re basically Sharlayan.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:21
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Blockhouse posted:In what way is Hydaelyn putting the world at risk? Continual massive aether drain while not actually doing anything, also the last time She did her job She caused the Sundering. I'm not saying She's evil, I'm just saying it's time for the world to move on.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:24
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Blockhouse posted:In what way is Hydaelyn putting the world at risk? More seriously Primals have been presented as long-term aether drains (though this may not apply to the big two), and if Hydaelyn's mission is entirely 'stop Zodiark,' then once Zodiark is handled it would be proper to have her fade out. I honestly doubt we will fight Hydaelyn in a trial unless there is some twist, like Zenos takes over Hydaelyn so we end up having to squad up with Zodiark. Chillgamesh posted:Continual massive aether drain while not actually doing anything, also the last time She did her job She caused the Sundering. I'm not saying She's evil, I'm just saying it's time for the world to move on.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:25
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Chillgamesh posted:Continual massive aether drain while not actually doing anything, also the last time She did her job She caused the Sundering. I'm not saying She's evil, I'm just saying it's time for the world to move on. is she a continual massive aether drain? I don't remember that ever coming up.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:27
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Nessus posted:For Man's life to mean anything, Man must OWN the world, and that means no crystal moms in the way. Also, FF games are entirely, solely and explicitly about killing God. surely "gaius was right about everything" won't be the big endwalker twist
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Jun 2, 2021 22:27
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Captain Oblivious posted:Wasn’t really the plan. But some degree of overriding consent is always in the cards when you’re planning to stop Nazis from doing Nazi things. In order to stop the genocide we need to do ... what's probably also a genocide? No shut up Azem we are not going to fight it what kind of stupid idea is that
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Jun 2, 2021 22:27
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Primals are aether drains because they were incorrectly summoned by folks with worse abilities than the Ancients. The stuff summoned by the Ancients are more correctly summoned and thus don’t drain the world around them
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Jun 2, 2021 22:28
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The whole "Primals being an existential threat to the world because eventually there won't be any aether left" is old ARR lore that appears to have been quietly forgotten (like a lot of ARR lore), as it's never brought up again. We summon Primals in the Eden storyline and it's never brought up. The draining of aether surrounding Fandaniel's towers are ascribed to the towers doing it, not the Lunar Primals.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:28
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multijoe posted:In order to stop the genocide we need to do ... what's probably also a genocide? No shut up Azem we are not going to fight it what kind of stupid idea is that there is a vast, vast difference between people voluntarily giving up their lives and harvesting the souls of unsuspecting people who have nothing to do with any of this
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Jun 2, 2021 22:28
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thetoughestbean posted:Primals are aether drains because they were incorrectly summoned by folks with worse abilities than the Ancients. The stuff summoned by the Ancients are more correctly summoned and thus don’t drain the world around them yeah but the ancients were huge dipshits too tho
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Jun 2, 2021 22:29
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Gnossiennes posted:yeah but the ancients were huge dipshits too tho Not really??
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Jun 2, 2021 22:30
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Blockhouse posted:there is a vast, vast difference between people voluntarily giving up their lives and harvesting the souls of unsuspecting people who have nothing to do with any of this I'm talking about Hydaelin fracturing the world and splitting everyone into fourteen, which only seems to have papered over the issue anyway given everything so far depicted in the trailer
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Jun 2, 2021 22:31
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Moofia Boss Val posted:The whole "Primals being an existential threat to the world because eventually there won't be any aether left" is old ARR lore that appears to have been quietly forgotten (like a lot of ARR lore), as it's never brought up again. We summon Primals in the Eden storyline and it's never brought up. The draining of aether surrounding Fandaniel's towers are ascribed to the towers doing it, not the Lunar Primals. Isn’t the whole point of summoning the primals in eden is that they gently caress with the aether
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Jun 2, 2021 22:33
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Nessus posted:For Man's life to mean anything, Man must OWN the world, and that means no crystal moms in the way. Also, FF games are entirely, solely and explicitly about killing God. They're extremely not. That's Shin Megami Tenses. Some FFs have that, but to claim that as the sole thematic and narrative purpose of the franchise is just playing into stereotypes about the genre.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:33
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Moofia Boss Val posted:The whole "Primals being an existential threat to the world because eventually there won't be any aether left" is old ARR lore that appears to have been quietly forgotten (like a lot of ARR lore), as it's never brought up again. We summon Primals in the Eden storyline and it's never brought up. The draining of aether surrounding Fandaniel's towers are ascribed to the towers doing it, not the Lunar Primals. Thats not really true though, Alexander needing a ton of aether just to move one arm was a pretty big plot point in those raids. In the Eden storyline grabbing some aether from the all light areas probably didn't matter much. Badger of Basra posted:Isn’t the whole point of summoning the primals in eden is that they gently caress with the aether The aether's alignment, presumably some is consumed in the process of doing so but I'm not sure thermodynamics can be applied to aether.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:33
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Ohh, I think you guys are actually right. Zodiark and Hydaelyn aren't aether drains specifically because they're both conglomerations of Ancient souls; basically like FFX Aeons/Sin where they're Dreams of the Fayth. I still stand by my point that it's time for the world to move on, but also it's probably best if the people making up Hydaelyn and Zodiark were allowed to lay down their arms after what amounts to a millennia-long civil war.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:34
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Moofia Boss Val posted:The whole "Primals being an existential threat to the world because eventually there won't be any aether left" is old ARR lore that appears to have been quietly forgotten (like a lot of ARR lore), as it's never brought up again. We summon Primals in the Eden storyline and it's never brought up. The draining of aether surrounding Fandaniel's towers are ascribed to the towers doing it, not the Lunar Primals. No? Alexander’s whole deal was he used so much aether it was a threat to the world. The Burn was brought up as what an area drained of aether looks like (even though it turned out to be caused by the Allagans instead of primals). The summoning of primals in Eden was fine because it we immediately beat them up so they released their aether into the surrounding area. It was just a way to get a lot of elemental aether in one place as quickly as possible.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:34
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Pulling a bit of aether out of a desolate, aether-rich, post-apocalyptic hellscape to jumpstart life is a little different than pulling it out of a thriving world experiencing rampant primal summoning and massive aether drains.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:35
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multijoe posted:I'm talking about Hydaelin fracturing the world and splitting everyone into fourteen, which only seems to have papered over the issue anyway given everything so far depicted in the trailer Now of course destroying one world in the first place, bad deal: but it sounds like this was more of a side effect because Hydaelyn had to steppies Zodiark so hard the planet fourteen-furicated. Waffleman_ posted:They're extremely not. That's Shin Megami Tenses. Some FFs have that, but to claim that as the sole thematic and narrative purpose of the franchise is just playing into stereotypes about the genre.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:36
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Badger of Basra posted:Isn’t the whole point of summoning the primals in eden is that they gently caress with the aether The point was that by killing them, aether could be dispersed over a great distance. This is also why Azem summoned a fire primal in the Shadowbringers short story.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:36
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Yeah a deficit of Aether was explicitly not the First's problem. They had plenty just all of one type. The whole Eden story is about them coming up with a way to use the phenomenon of Primals to change the aether. It was a very clever idea and is completely in keeping with how Primals have worked the whole time.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:38
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Hydaelyn’s summoning isn’t treated in the story as a totally good thing. The sundering was deeply tragic. Hydaelyn’s been seemingly a force for good in the post sundering world, but that doesn’t make the actions by Venat and co entirely correct
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Jun 2, 2021 22:41
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I think in general Shadowbringers' take on sacrifice is that it's frequently a way of escaping the burden of solving your problems by making a big noble gesture and then not having to deal with all the consequences your actions will have down the line. Self-sacrifice is less morally abhorrent than sacrificing other people, but it's not an exception to this rule. I think Shadowbringers also draws a line between sacrificing your life and just risking it.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:43
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Moofia please at least read the text before posting. Not just the other posts but the actual games text is straight up saying the opposite of what you're concluding. Alexander talks about draining the world's aether being the biggest threat about a primal. We see how they distort and devour aether when summoned repeatedly throughout HW and its .X patches. A very big part of the most recent story is further expanding our knowledge of how exactly they gently caress up aether and how that is how thats actually what tempering is.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:46
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I imagine Zodiark and Hydaelyn are mostly sustaining off the aether reserves from their initial summoning unless they have to do something major like reviving a few million dead people
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Jun 2, 2021 22:50
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I can't believe you guys are still trying to argue with what's pretty obviously a sassassin re-reg or alt or w/e. That particular mix of self-delusion and sociopathy is pretty distinctive, not to mention that even on the last account, they lost no time trying to get into an arms race to out-cleretic Cleretic.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:52
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Moofia Boss Val posted:The point was that by killing them, aether could be dispersed over a great distance. This is also why Azem summoned a fire primal in the Shadowbringers short story. How do you think the aether got in them in the first place if they didn’t drain it from somewhere
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Jun 2, 2021 22:53
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Blockhouse posted:I imagine Zodiark and Hydaelyn are mostly sustaining off the aether reserves from their initial summoning unless they have to do something major like reviving a few million dead people If they weren’t, Zodiark probably would not have required sacrifices of life to complete his function in the first place. By all indications Hydaelyn has been rationing out the strength she had from creation over the millenia and never taking more. If she was draining aether she probably wouldn’t be barely extant.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:53
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Rand Brittain posted:I think in general Shadowbringers' take on sacrifice is that it's frequently a way of escaping the burden of solving your problems by making a big noble gesture and then not having to deal with all the consequences your actions will have down the line. Self-sacrifice is less morally abhorrent than sacrificing other people, but it's not an exception to this rule. Yeah, I felt like Shadowbringers was trying to make the point that leaping to self-sacrifice is, in a way, selfish. "If I sacrifice myself, then others won't have to give up anything." But they're giving up you. It is selfish, in a way. It removes the agency from your friends. "Instead of working on this problem and trying to solve it, I'll just come up with a secret self-sacrifice plan." I don't feel like FFXIV is ever trying to say that self-sacrifice is "bad." Hell, sometimes it is wholly necessary. But it should be seen as a last resort, only when all other options are exhausted.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:55
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Badger of Basra posted:How do you think the aether got in them in the first place if they didn’t drain it from somewhere Specifically in the case of the Eden primals it came from the Empty.
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Jun 2, 2021 22:59
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thetoughestbean posted:Hydaelyn’s summoning isn’t treated in the story as a totally good thing. The sundering was deeply tragic. Hydaelyn’s been seemingly a force for good in the post sundering world, but that doesn’t make the actions by Venat and co entirely correct Admittedly it's been a while since I've done that part of the story, but was there anything that stated one way or another that it was known what would happen? The impression I've always gotten was that Hydaelyn was a last desperate measure with the goals of "stop Zodiark and the Convocation, protect the new life" and the Sundering just happened to be how that happened. I think the thing with Azem was more of a "do you really think another mega-crystal is the answer to the other mega-crystal?" situation.
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Jun 2, 2021 23:58
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musouka posted:The meeting with Venat implies otherwise, what with the talk about how their peers wouldn't approve of what they're doing but that it's the only way to resolve the situation. I mean, given that their peers were all-in on the "let's have this reality-altering creation of ours eat the 'lesser' races so we can get our brethern back" plan, a counterplan that's "let's get rid of the reality-altering creation before it eats more people" probably WOULDN'T be approved of by their peers.
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Jun 3, 2021 00:15
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Moofia is someone's trolling alt account. They showed their hand super quickly on that, actually, by quoting something I had only at the time said long before their join date (specifically, that I know the Sound will be from 'something a dragoon can LB3'). I'm genuinely stunned you lot are still taking that bait. As for primals being an aether drain, the way I've generally interpreted it from both Alexander and Eden is that when they die they disperse the aether that comprises them, but the aether they consume before then is gone. So a quickly disposed-of primal can be used for an 'explosion' of specific aether, like with the Eden primals, but the real problem aetherically is when they do something big that causes a huge drain on aether (like Alexander or the fears about Eureka) or when they're around for long enough to become a consistent drain (like Ramuh, Bismarck or Lakshmi). That does make Zodiark and Hydaelyn potential problems in both ways, because they've been around for ages and did some big-deal poo poo. But I'm not inclined to believe that's a significant factor, just because Shadowbringers gave plenty of opportunities for them to lay that down, and they never once took the opportunity. So chances are Zodiark is dangerous only for the exact reason we've been given: he's the Ascians' primal, and is so stupid strong that he could destroy the world as we know if if sufficiently fuelled. And now Garlemald's prime Fight Idiot wants to pilot it.
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Jun 3, 2021 00:17
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Hydalen and Zodiark have proper efficient engines because they were made properly by people who knew how to do it. Primals since then have lovely, leaky engines that are falling apart, using up too much aether for too little mileage.
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Jun 3, 2021 00:33
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Captain Oblivious posted:Moofia Boss Val is trying to claim moral equivalency between the Exarch coming back from the future and erasing said future by changing the past, ignoring that Possibly entire generations of survivors devoting their lives to just that, in fact.
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Jun 3, 2021 00:41
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As Ishikawa said in Fanfest, I took the central conceit of Shadowbringers as being a story of "heroes trying to save the world", and the endless nuances contained within. I don't think it made particular commentary on the moral particulars of self-sacrifice one way or another, and suggesting it presented the Amaurotines sacrificing themselves to save the world as stupid and wrong is absolutely not the case. We are urged on just about every narrative level to respect them. Minfilia was not framed as stupid for sacrificing herself for the First, and then later for Ryne; Ardbert and Co. are also pointedly not drawn as Big Dumbs for their own sacrifices. We have Thancred, but that encounter was meant to showcase his character development with Ryne and allowing her freedom. It was luck (and the Trust System), not a form of moral condemnation, that he survived. Y'shtola was seen as "reckless", but the sacrifice itself wasn't attacked. Considering how long "look to those who walked before to lead those who walked after" has been reiterated endlessly through the series, with all its implications (respect and honor the past, trust those in the future) and how much Shadowbringers itself celebrates "working for the sake of others, while you yourself will never actually see the reward", it's actually very confusing to me how people came away with this based on the text. Probably along the same lines of people being so determined to see the Amaurotines as a Failed Race that they reframe their unambiguous selfless sacrifice of giving themselves up for the world as an act of twisted evil, I guess. That being said, troll status of the other poster or not, G'raha Tia and Emet-Selch are absolutely meant to be parallels in their actions. Ardbert, for that matter, as well. All made the decisions to sacrifice other "worlds" for the sake of their own, without their consent. This is deliberate! It is not subtle!
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Jun 3, 2021 00:41
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Tunzie posted:Hydalen and Zodiark have proper efficient engines because they were made properly by people who knew how to do it. Primals since then have lovely, leaky engines that are falling apart, using up too much aether for too little mileage. Actually, it's also notable that the Amaurotians didn't know what they were doing. They weren't making primals before then, and the fact Zodiark tempered them was, at least so far, the biggest consequence of him being their pilot program for something THAT big. It's possible that there were other problems, though. I wouldn't assume he was perfect. The difference as I see it is actually in how they approached making their primal. The primals made in the game's present day are false gods; they're organic products of stories and mythologies that grew naturally out of the way societies live their lives. They're imperfect as primals because they weren't made as primals; they were made as gods, with all that entails for their summoners. The Amal'jaa summoned a destructive, vengeful deity, the Holy See summoned a god-king, the Ananta summoned a goddess of love. Sure, they're inefficient, but that's because efficiency never entered into anyone's mind. The closest to Zodiark and Hydaelyn is Alexander. Because the Ancients and Illuminati, they set out to make the same thing: a tool. They trade in things built with purpose, and so they summoned a thing with purpose. But it's worth noting that Alexander had flaws, too, and for Alex it was a big one; they couldn't solve the classic real robot anime problem of 'a giant robot walking is REALLY energy-intensive'. The Ancients summoned tools for a specific end, not a god with vague and indistinct goals. That makes Zodiark and Hydaelyn more effective at their job: because they actually have a very specific use case. But it doesn't mean they're perfect, and it's folly to assume they are, because we know for a fact Zodiark wasn't. EDIT: Just realized you said 'proper', not 'perfect'! But it's still a worthwhile thing to underline: we know Zodiark was flawed, so we can't fall into the Ascians' own trap of assuming it's a perfect machine. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jun 3, 2021 |
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Jun 3, 2021 01:07
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Copycat Zero posted:I mean, given that their peers were all-in on the "let's have this reality-altering creation of ours eat the 'lesser' races so we can get our brethern back" plan, a counterplan that's "let's get rid of the reality-altering creation before it eats more people" probably WOULDN'T be approved of by their peers. I mean, the only person that puts forth that the Hydaelyn faction was motivated by an attempt to save "new life" is a construct created by, uh, Emet-Selch. The Hydaelyn faction's meeting doesn't seem too terribly concerned with the whole "eating people" thing, aside from it not actually solving the problem as they see it.
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Jun 3, 2021 01:12
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musouka posted:I mean, the only person that puts forth that the Hydaelyn faction was motivated by an attempt to save "new life" is a construct created by, uh, Emet-Selch. The Hydaelyn faction's meeting doesn't seem too terribly concerned with the whole "eating people" thing, aside from it not actually solving the problem as they see it. There's no good reason to think Hythlodaeus was wrong about that one thing when he was dead on about literally every other piece of information he gave us
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Jun 3, 2021 01:15
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