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8ender posted:Also don't forget that environmentally focused groups and customers are already mad at VW for this. Imagine how they'd feel if they crushed half a million cars into scrap. Couldn't they dump them into a third world country? Many countries do not have any emissions standards.
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Sep 26, 2015 16:14
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fknlo posted:The ECU update they released in December was supposed to be a fix for the issue.
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Sep 26, 2015 16:22
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bizwank posted:The cars can already pass emissions, the code already exists in the ECU, it just needs to be enabled full-time. Such a simple fix! I wonder why they haven't done that?
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Sep 26, 2015 16:52
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CommieGIR posted:And then you chip it.
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Sep 26, 2015 16:54
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Those environmental people would be so happy about the message of cubing those cars they wouldn't even care about the economic or moral externalities of that decision.
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Sep 26, 2015 16:59
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VelociBacon posted:Those environmental people would be so happy about the message of cubing those cars they wouldn't even care about the economic or moral externalities of that decision. They were knowingly illegally brought in to the country. They should be all be cubed as illegal imports.
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Sep 26, 2015 17:26
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fknlo posted:Such a simple fix! I wonder why they haven't done that?
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Sep 26, 2015 17:51
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bizwank posted:Because there is no "simple fix" for this clusterfuck at this point; the cars meeting emissions is now only one small part of it. Clearly the cars can meet emissions with code that's already in the ecu, otherwise they would have been failing state emission tests since 2010 and they wouldn't have passed the EPA's tests in the first place. VW was trying to hide this for as long as possible, and they only came clean at the last possible second when their future sales were threatened. That's why they haven't "fixed" this yet, even though it would have been smarter to do it before they got caught. Is that actually clear? Emissions tests take place solely in software. There's no actual tailpipe emissions testing. Remember honda engineers said they were never able to replicate NOx emissions in any car without a urea tank, yet until 2015 VW didn't use adblue.
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Sep 26, 2015 17:57
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Yes they do test the tailpipe emissions
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Sep 26, 2015 18:09
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thatguy posted:Is that actually clear? Emissions tests take place solely in software. There's no actual tailpipe emissions testing. Remember honda engineers said they were never able to replicate NOx emissions in any car without a urea tank, yet until 2015 VW didn't use adblue.
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Sep 26, 2015 18:13
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BraveUlysses posted:Yes they do test the tailpipe emissions EPA didn't. CARB did, outside of testing parameters, which is how it got caught. And from my time in TX, OBD2 cars didn't get sniffed. Just OBD1 and older. So these cars in a lot of places would've never been caught.
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Sep 26, 2015 18:40
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Whether the state does tailpipe testing is irrelevant to the EPA issue (except for testing in post fix compliance.) The code in VW's system was meant to dupe EPA tests only, not necessarily state emissions tests (which usually have looser guidelines than federal except for CA and states that follow CA standards.) For example, a state may adopt CA standards but only do computer testing of the emissions equipment and a visual test for compliance, but not an actual tailpipe test. One of the interesting things to note is the code was using barometric pressure as part of indicator to engage the defeat. So, they went so far as to tie the car to a particular altitude to cheat This also likely means that the tuning they did for the defeat code may only do the desired effect at a narrow band of altitudes since that's all they were coding for. Another thing to note is that the EPA tests are samples used to determine the overall emissions picture of the car. Using those samples, they can combine that with average driving patterns to determine things like average NOx output per mile. The defeat software was used to curb emissions for the specific EPA tests, but that may mean that it's not a 'complete tune' so to speak. For example, if the EPA measures emissions driving on a flat road at 55 mph for 5 miles, the defeat mode for that test may only contain the parameters necessary to bring the car into compliance for that test. If the car is driven at 65 mph for that test, even with the defeat mode enabled all the time, it still might fall out of compliance because they didn't expect the EPA to drive the car at 65mph and therefore didn't bother coding the ECU with the correct tune for those parameters to be in compliance. So, as you can see, it may not be as simple as "turn the defeat on all the time." Doing that may make it ace the EPA tests and bring emissions under control for the vehicles that are driven exactly like the EPA testing regime, but it may still be a huge deviation in average emissions than the test was supposed to account for in its modeling. Depending on how much wiggle room the EPA has to change the testing procedures but still have a statistically similar result for most cars, it might show the defeat isn't going to be enough to fix these vehicles. It's also very likely that the EPA is going to demand that VW include some sort of tamper resistance to the fix to prevent owners from easily reflashing them back to where they were or to easily check if they were reflashed. Not to say that couldn't eventually be circumvented, but I think the road for people expecting to return the cars to before fix operation is going to be harder than they think.
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Sep 26, 2015 18:57
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Fixing the car isn't the problem. The problem is that after the fix the car is not what people bought originally.
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Sep 26, 2015 19:01
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iwentdoodie posted:EPA didn't. CARB did, outside of testing parameters, which is how it got caught. Every state I've lived in (NC, MD) that has emissions tests never had tailpipe emissions tests on anything but cars too old to hook up. I was just assuming other states did the same.
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Sep 26, 2015 19:13
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I paid $6,000 extra for a 2.0 diesel engine whose advantages will be erased with a software fix. That's the absolute minimum that VW owes the owners and I'm not going to ever stop pursuing VW until it's back in my pocket. Here's a scan of my 2014 TDI California Emissions Warranty. Somebody might find it interesting. http://imgur.com/a/ALFpk via fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 26, 2015 |
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Sep 26, 2015 19:14
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Arsenic Lupin posted:To the person who was saying environmentalists would hate cubing cars, I don't think so; they were enthusiastic about Cash for Clunkers. If people who claim to have an eye out for the environment don't understand the massive energy and resources implications of crushing half a million cars 5-10 years before their normal end of life, and then producing half a million more to replace them, then I don't know what to say.
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Sep 26, 2015 20:45
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Enforcement is still up to the states, and California is the only one really going that far. The EPA has a hard time getting states to even crack down on coal tunes for trucks, which are also illegal.
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Sep 26, 2015 23:06
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My new TDI has a temp emissions sticker on it. I guess here in Colorado new vehicles are exempt from emissions testing for 7 years. So Iḿ guessing they would need to change the law to test new TDIs? Or am I reading this wrong.quote:Vehicles are currently exempt from the emission inspection for the first seven (7) model years, after which vehicles are inspected on a biennial basis. Please contact us at 303.205.5603 for assistance in determining if your vehicle needs an inspection.
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Sep 27, 2015 01:24
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That's irrelevant. Your individual car doesn't need testing because none of that model comply with the standards they need to to be used on the road.
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Sep 27, 2015 01:29
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Sorry I donīt understand you.
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Sep 27, 2015 01:58
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Withnail posted:Sorry I donīt understand you. Periodic testing is to ensure a car that was designed to meet emissions standards still complies with them (in good working order, maintained well enough, etc). No we're talking about cars that are now known to have never met that standard as part of their design. Therefore no testing is necessary to determine your car does not meet emissions standards.
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Sep 27, 2015 02:28
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http://consumerist.com/2015/09/25/epa-overhauling-emissions-tests-to-catch-defeat-device-cheaters/quote:He noted that the newest cars those in model year 2015 should be fixed rather quickly, while older models will likely take engineering to be remedied. He reiterated that the affected cars are safe and legal to drive.
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Sep 27, 2015 02:45
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Hey guys here's a reminder that the US market MK7 Diesel Golfs all have beam axles in the rear because the urea tanks take up all the space that the independent rear suspension uses.
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Sep 27, 2015 04:38
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys here's a reminder that the US market MK7 Diesel Golfs all have beam axles in the rear because the urea tanks take up all the space that the independent rear suspension uses. Good luck buying one anywhere though
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Sep 27, 2015 04:56
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dissss posted:Because it's probably going to utterly ruin those cars and they didn't want that fallout. KakerMix posted:So losing tens of billions in their value, kicking off an industry-wide hunt for cheaters across the globe and sacking a hundred or so engineers made more sense? Criminal probes in multiple nations and absolutely smashing their consumer confidence? They had already gotten away with it for 4 to 5 years, maybe they didn't think they were going to get caught, and decided to forget about fixing the issue. I mean, why work on a solution to a problem you don't have to fix, right?
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Sep 27, 2015 05:21
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RoboJiggolo posted:They had already gotten away with it for 4 to 5 years, maybe they didn't think they were going to get caught, and decided to forget about fixing the issue. VW has known that this was maybe not going to go away since May of 2014. If they could have fixed it easily why didn't they do it in December of 2014?
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Sep 27, 2015 07:14
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KakerMix posted:VW has known that this was maybe not going to go away since May of 2014. If they could have fixed it easily why didn't they do it in December of 2014? I didn't say there was an easy fix. I was just saying, maybe they thought they weren't going to get caught (at least before the May 2014 thing), so they didn't bother trying to come up with a solution before then. Also, the more difficult the solution appeared to them, the more they were likely discouraged from attempting to fix it. And, fixing it would probably "out" them (right?), so it is further disincentive from doing anything about it. I was just explaining a possible motive. RoboJiggolo fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 09:08
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iwentdoodie posted:EPA didn't. CARB did, outside of testing parameters, which is how it got caught. In TX diesels don't get emissions tests, just safety, even in the large counties. So of course if the flash nerfs performance that bad I'm not going to get it done.
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Sep 27, 2015 15:23
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Texas also only checks emissions back 25 years in emissions check counties, so 5 more years or so until it's all OBDII computer checks.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:03
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I'd imagine a lot of places that don't do or care about emissions stuff don't do it because they assume everything is conforming to the standards set by the EPA. Vehicles known to not be conforming to those standards might get a little more scrutiny.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:13
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fknlo posted:I'd imagine a lot of places that don't do or care about emissions stuff don't do it because they assume everything is conforming to the standards set by the EPA. Vehicles known to not be conforming to those standards might get a little more scrutiny. The EPA has been trying to get states to crack down in coal tunes without much luck. It doesn't help that the EPA has largely been defanged by the GOP in recent years.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:19
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Coal tunes likely do less damage to the environment than whatever the gently caress horrors are coming out of the tailpipes of Harleys after their owners select their components based on how loud it is and how much chrome it has. You'd likely get more bang for your buck forcing emissions testing of motorcycles and mopeds than taking all TDIs off the road.
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Sep 27, 2015 18:53
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Shifty Pony posted:You'd likely get more bang for your buck forcing emissions testing of motorcycles and mopeds than taking all TDIs off the road.
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Sep 27, 2015 18:56
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Yeah, How do Harleys get away without emissions testing but Briggs and Stratton is getting things forced on them?
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Sep 27, 2015 19:32
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Shifty Pony posted:Coal tunes likely do less damage to the environment than whatever the gently caress horrors are coming out of the tailpipes of Harleys after their owners select their components based on how loud it is and how much chrome it has. You'd likely get more bang for your buck forcing emissions testing of motorcycles and mopeds than taking all TDIs off the road. You shut your mouth. Unless we only test Harleys, then sure.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:33
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Christobevii3 posted:Yeah, How do Harleys get away without emissions testing but Briggs and Stratton is getting things forced on them? Rich, old, white people like them. And freedom  e: and I remember seeing something Edmunds did a while back where running a leaf blower for some certain amount of time was the equivalent of driving a Raptor like 3500 miles.
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Sep 27, 2015 19:33
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fknlo posted:Rich, old, white people like them. And freedom its an hour. I also posted before late 90s early 2000 jet skis/snowmobiles/4 wheelers run for an hour is the equivalent of a similar year civic for 10,000 miles.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:22
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Leaf blowers always struck me as the most wasteful form of lawn care.
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Sep 27, 2015 20:34
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StandardVC10 posted:Leaf blowers always struck me as the most wasteful form of lawn care. I hate them, they don't work!
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Sep 27, 2015 21:01
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http://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-dieselgate-proves-its-time-to-go-electric-1733163688 Now Elon Musk is saying that this whole fiasco illustrates the need to move towards all electric transportation. The fact that VW would feel the need to pull a stunt like this, according to him, shows that there's not a whole lot more we can do to make internal combustion engines less bad for the environment. I'm sure it must sound like a blatantly opportunistic sales pitch, but he does kind of have a point.
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Sep 27, 2015 22:15
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