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Guys the bote can launch cruise missiles and is also a bote c'mon we gotta buy the bote
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May 23, 2017 01:56
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CirclMastr posted:I vote we save the $400 million and buy F-35s next procurement round. I don't foresee us getting Gen 5 Fighters. Maybe on a mission lease basis, but not to keep. power crystals posted:How does the various "buy one of this plane" entries interact with "we're selling anything we only have one of"? I assume they don't show up and then immediately go back home to the dealer Anything in that list that's just 1 is a support type, so EWAR, or ELINT, not single combat aircraft.
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May 23, 2017 01:57
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LostCosmonaut posted:Both the Ivanov fighter and attack options would represent a huge upgrade to our A2G capability, but I'm leaning toward the Attack option since the Fencers have longer legs. Man, the Ivanov options are all awesome. I really want to not get F-15/16/18s for the sake of variety, and the Gripen NG upgrade would just make our current one-trick pony trickier. But an actual modern frigate is hard to resist.
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May 23, 2017 02:02
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Bote pack has: 1) Bote 2) Multiple big EWAR planes 3) Hinds 4) Fishbeds How can we choose anything else? I mean, the sheer hilarity of Fishbeds next to all our sleek Eurotrash is worth it alone, much less the troop transport capacity from the Hinds and missile strikes from the bote on top of that.
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May 23, 2017 02:05
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We gotta get Ivanov support you guys. We just gotta.
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May 23, 2017 02:05
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Well, here's my thoughts: BFLM: - F-18Cs are generically good and we won't really go wrong with them - A-29Bs have very short legs, are slow as molasses, and can't do IFR. And their payload is poo poo - F-16CMs have MALDs holy poo poo - A-10Cs are slow but capable and can mount LGBs if we don't feel like feeding them to MANPADS - MQ-1s don't have Gorgon Stare but can loiter for forever and can carry Hellfires. Not great but nice - P-3Cs are MPAs, we want these - I have no idea what to think about HC-130s IB: - Su-34s are pretty solid multiroles that lean more on "attack" than "fighter". Also they have a kitchen - The Su-25T we already have has very short legs and while I kinda like it I don't know that I want this many more of them - An-12BK is okay I guess - Su-24 has so many loadouts that it's going to paralyze our poor planners - MiG-29s have R77s! - Su-24 EWAR I don't know much about - MiG-21s are sometimes okay, these aren't - Mi-35s are cool if we want helicopters - I don't know poo poo about boats K&P - Gripen upgrade is sensible but ultra-boring - F-4 Terminators have some neat weapons - BR.1150 is an MPA, we want these - Tornado IDS is Saudis again, but those are cool - Greek F-16s have JSOWs but not much else of note I see - EC.665s are gunships, so no SAR capability - Tornado ECR has some really nice ARMs and not much else The boat sure is a curveball but I want the BFLM attack one because holy poo poo, MALDs. That's a game changer.
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May 23, 2017 02:11
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I actually like the K&P fighter package. Upgrade our 'mainline' fighters, add some F4s, and a maritime patrol aircraft.
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May 23, 2017 02:11
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power crystals posted:The boat sure is a curveball but I want the BFLM attack one because holy poo poo, MALDs. That's a game changer. Not all of us in the thread are plane nerds. Please explain.
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May 23, 2017 02:17
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It can send out decoys.
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May 23, 2017 02:19
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CirclMastr posted:Not all of us in the thread are plane nerds. Please explain. Mini air launched decoys. They launch off a rail and give radar emissions like a fighter, baiting SAMs and other anti-air weapons into shooting them. You can imagine why it'd be handy for SEAD.
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May 23, 2017 02:19
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If the bote was a Gorshkov I'd definetely vote for that. Buyan seems a little limited with only 8 missiles for a strike vs the Gorshkov's 16.
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May 23, 2017 02:22
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Yooper what about upgrading our existing Tornados? Is that an option?
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May 23, 2017 02:24
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What's a MALD?
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May 23, 2017 02:25
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BLFM Fighter A bit of a mixed bag here. The F/A-18s are genuine do it all aircraft, from A2A capability that's nigh on the match of our Gripens, to lobbing monster ALCMs, to even dropping napalm. The Super Tucanos are about the best we can expect from a turboprop COIN aircraft, and the MQ-1Cs have a phenomenal FLIR. Lots of surface coverage here. Really nice for recon and the Hornets are pretty sweet too. The Tukes are what they are. BLFM Attack The F-16s aren't quite the match of the F/A-18s in terms of weapons or range, and will impose some slight operational difficulties. Still pretty awesome aircraft. The A-10s are meme traps, simple as. The drones are still pretty neat. BLFM Support Eh, not too keen on this one. We don't really need two HC-130Hs, we only need the one MPA, and far too many Tucanos. Not a good pick. Ivanov Fighter Now what in the name of god is going on here? The Fullback isn't a fighter what with its lovely Alamos, it's a strike bomber. the Frogfoot sure as gently caress isn't a fighter but hey, we get some EWAR here. Ivanov Attack Here are the fighters. The MiG-29Ks are pretty decent fighters and have Kryptons all over the place. The Su-24s are Soviet German Tornadoes but with even bigger bombs and better ARMs. We even get a jammer Su-24. Far and away the best of the Ivanov packs. Ivanov Support This is nothing but traps. Mi-35s are SHORAD bait, the MiG-21s are loving garbage (R-13s? Seriously?), the Buyan has very limited self-defence capability so it'll get nailed by an AShM or demand a constant CAP which we wouldn't be able to do without loving us over somewhere else. The only reason to pick this if you want EWAR, but this one skews it too far. Klaus & Petersen Fighter Oh god Gripen NGs. Steroid Gripens with an AESA radar, an extra pair of pylons for all your Meteor needs, an IRST and even more range. We also get a nice MPA in the form of the Atlantique, and the Terminators are pretty sweet bombers. Klaus & Petersen Attack On the other hand, we have another good potential choice here. The F-16s are pretty nice, though not quite as excellent as the American ones or the Hornets. The Saudi Tornadoes are lovely, and we also get the Atlantique MPA. Klaus & Petersen Support A really, really weak pack. The Tornado ECR is a regular Tornado with an improved ELINT suite but only HARMs and zero EWAR capability, the E-2 is a nice AEW bird but I don't think we need a second one, and just some boring utility helos and a pair of Tornadoes round it off. No buys.
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May 23, 2017 02:27
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Yooper what about upgrading our existing Tornados? Is that an option? For my own sanity everything will be the same type.
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May 23, 2017 02:29
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Yooper posted:For my own sanity everything will be the same type. Saudi? British? Did our Saudi Tornados suddenly turn German?
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May 23, 2017 02:32
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I vote BFLM attack.
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May 23, 2017 02:33
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Yeah the Ivanov fighter package is weird. The Fullbacks should be removed and replaced with an upgraded Flanker variant. If Fullbacks should still be in the package take out the Frogfoots and replace them with a reduced amount of Fulbacks.
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May 23, 2017 02:39
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Night10194 posted:What's a MALD? They are small drone missile things (think cruise missile scale) that can pretend to be other aircraft and have an operational radius of around 500nm. So you program your decoy to look like a Gripen and send it off where you think the enemy's air defenses are and go "well that's where the missiles came from". These are MALD-Js so they have jammers on top of that! Missiles that do their own EWAR! Wikipedia claims $330k per decoy fired, which is like 1/3rd of a Meteor. We have absolutely nothing like this now and it'd let our older less capable planes operate much more safely if we use these to probe for air defenses first. e: read wrong unit cost
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May 23, 2017 02:40
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Saudi? British? Did our Saudi Tornados suddenly turn German? They eat Halal now. Saudi.
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May 23, 2017 02:46
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Fact is we need ASW capabilities and only K&P attack, Ivanov support and BLFM Support really gives us that.
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May 23, 2017 02:49
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K&P Fighter Improved catbirds, no useless bote, what else is there to say?
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May 23, 2017 02:52
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Dreamsicle posted:Yeah the Ivanov fighter package is weird. The Fullbacks should be removed and replaced with an upgraded Flanker variant. Thank you for pointing that out. It was supposed to be the SU-35, not SU-34. Procurement post is now updated to reflect the proper fighter.
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May 23, 2017 02:54
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Looking over the options, the only ones that don't saddle us with weird dead weight are Ivanov Attack, K&P Fighters, and K&P Attack. The BLFM ones all have Super Tucanos (and A-10s, which sadly aren't rated to survive in 2023), the two support options have really vulnerable rotary wing, and Ivanov Fighters has those Su-25Ts which we constantly complain about.
Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 03:06
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orcbuster posted:Fact is we need ASW capabilities and only K&P attack, Ivanov support and BLFM Support really gives us that. Both the Fighter and CAS K&P packages give us ASW capability. I actually just like the K&P packages more because the BR.1150 Atlantique 2 can carry more different stuff so it's useful if we're not hunting for subs/Botes. The way I think about these options is - what gives us new capability. We've talked about ASW capability which narrows it down to 4 options. Of those 4 options, the K&P Fighter package gives us the AESA for the Gripens and adds the most new capability. That said, I'd love to add a ton of airframes but it's hard to see how you go past the Gripens
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May 23, 2017 03:10
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PenguinSalsa posted:If we're getting Harriers (yes please), the Harrier GR.9A can carry six(!) Brimstones or a bunch of Mavericks and/or Paveway IVs For my choices I tried to pick the second newest version, to be more interesting and probably more realistic (more getting sold off by national militaries). A lot of cool options in this procurement round? Ivanov-F for All the Frogs? Ivanov-S for the boat? But I think I'll be hoping for BFLM-A. F-16s are great at everything, A-10s are fun, and that bunch of MQ-1 drones with Hellfires should be excellent when a target needs to be finished off (or is fragile), in addition to the recon uses.
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May 23, 2017 03:20
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Dandywalken posted:I vote BFLM attack. not voting yet
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May 23, 2017 03:30
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Guys I want the F-18's but I may also have vtol brain syndrome don't get vtol brain syndrome
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May 23, 2017 03:36
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As a supporter of BOTE pack it gets us good EW in the 2 decent OECM planes, some halfway decent light attackers in the Hinds, A bote with 8! long range cruise missiles (thats 3! saudi tornadoes worth) with a fantastic radar that gives us redundancy in our EINT, and 8 fishbeds that are hilarious and probably not worth much. It is the the pack for good EWAR options.
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May 23, 2017 03:37
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Ivanov
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May 23, 2017 03:41
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Updated to current stats!quote:8 - JAS 39C Gripen : Meteor & SDB quote:BFLM Fighter quote:BFLM Attack quote:BFLM Support quote:K&P Attack Beer4TheBeerGod fucked around with this message at 05:39 on May 23, 2017 |
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May 23, 2017 03:43
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ldragon posted:As a supporter of BOTE pack it gets us good EW in the 2 decent OECM planes, some halfway decent light attackers in the Hinds, A bote with 8! long range cruise missiles (thats 3! saudi tornadoes worth) with a fantastic radar that gives us redundancy in our EINT, and 8 fishbeds that are hilarious and probably not worth much. It is the the pack for good EWAR options. To piggyback off of this, the Buyan-class corvette is a really good value. They give us land strike capabilities and have some spicy close in guns. We can use this for anti-piracy missions and land strikes as well. For cover e could place our AWACS over it so that way the CAP we normally have covering our other assets can still protect this. Its reasonably fast and has a decent stealth profile as well. Best of all we get a boat and other assets as well, all for 400 million of procurement. I know a lot of people might be thinking that its meh, but understand this, to get a good line ship, like a modern frigate or destroyers, its going to cost pretty much an entire round of procurement fund to get one boat (most lower end frigates cost anywhere from 300-500 million a unit) and most of those lack the capability to strike land targets with cruise missiles. So basically if we want a big boat that can shoot a decent number of missiles, we'd have to forgo a round of procurement to afford one, and even then we'd be dumping almost all our money into one. Now I'm not opposed to that, but I know a lo of people here would feel iffy about putting so much funding into one thing. Navies are expensive, this Buyan-class corvette is a good cheap unit that lets us get more stuff.
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May 23, 2017 03:50
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The Gripen upgrade gives us longer legs, an improved FLIR, and the ability to carry 6 (!) Meteors. For as good as bote is, those Gripen upgrades are better.
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May 23, 2017 03:59
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For naval stuff, I really would rather wait to buy something like an Incheon or Iver Huitfeldt instead. Something that has at least some capacity to defend itself and that gives us something beyond "yet another way to toss cruise missiles at things".
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May 23, 2017 04:04
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sparkmaster posted:The Gripen upgrade gives us longer legs, an improved FLIR, and the ability to carry 6 (!) Meteors. For as good as bote is, those Gripen upgrades are better. The radar upgrade is out of sight as well.
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May 23, 2017 04:06
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sparkmaster posted:The Gripen upgrade gives us longer legs, an improved FLIR, and the ability to carry 6 (!) Meteors. For as good as bote is, those Gripen upgrades are better. If we pick the BLFM Fighter package we get five more fighters that can each carry six AMRAAMs. I'm just not seeing how the Gripen upgrade is remotely worth it.
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May 23, 2017 04:06
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Lots of good options here. The only one I really don't think we should go with is the K&P Fighters because I think we should go for more airframes; getting better Gripens will just crowd out more of the usability of our lesser planes. I think the most intriguing option is Ivanov Support because of the naval factor. The game is great at doing naval missions and it would be fun and different to start to explore the boat side of things. Otherwise I'm very big on Fencers as I think they would be fun to deploy, and K&P Support would let us do more complicated EWAR mission planning that I find fun to do, but i'm not sure if it would translate to the LP as well.
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May 23, 2017 04:07
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:If we pick the BLFM Fighter package we get five more fighters that can each carry six AMRAAMs. The BLFM Fighter package saddles us with a bunch of Super Tucanos. I like Super Tucanos, but I have to admit they're outclassed in the current air environment.
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May 23, 2017 04:07
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The Sandman posted:For naval stuff, I really would rather wait to buy something like an Incheon or Iver Huitfeldt instead. Something that has at least some capacity to defend itself and that gives us something beyond "yet another way to toss cruise missiles at things". Ok but the boat we were offered is a crew of 42 the ones you suggested are crewed by 140 and 165 respectively. We aren't going to be able to get a boat that needs a crew of over 50, realistically. Even that might be pushing it
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May 23, 2017 04:08
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Davin Valkri posted:The BLFM Fighter package saddles us with a bunch of Super Tucanos. I like Super Tucanos, but I have to admit they're outclassed in the current air environment. Is it really that big of a deal? At least they can bomb stuff. I'm just trying to understand how the balance is there.
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May 23, 2017 04:16
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