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fade5 posted:You stupid, stupid motherfuckers, why would you do this? What the gently caress does Erdogan/the Turkish government possibly think it's going to get by attacking the YPG? Shelling the PKK is dumb but is at least slightly understandable because of the whole Turkey-PKK conflict and because the US probably wouldn't stick its neck out for the PKK. Its maximum Osman time friend. They were the puppetmasters all along. 
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Jul 27, 2015 04:30
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goose fleet posted:Where is ISIS getting all of its military equipment from? I'd imagine that they can't run off old Syrian/Iraqi stockpiles forever. Mainly two ways you look supplies from defeated forces. The big collapse of the Iraqi military gave ISIS piles of made in the US equipment. ISIS also collects taxes revenues from its territory and with enough cash you can buy lots of equipment.
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Jul 27, 2015 04:32
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I don't know on what planet you live on where you think that Turkey will go through the trouble of fighting ISIS without being guaranteed that they can put the Kurds in their place as part of the deal.
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Jul 27, 2015 04:36
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Volkerball posted:First really damning piece I've seen about peshmerga ethnic cleansing in Iraq. It's not genocide ethnic cleansing, but it seems like it's pretty certain that they are looting and burning down Arab villages, then blaming it on ISIS, with the intent of driving non-Kurds out of the region. There doesn't have to be actual genocidal murders for ethnic cleansing to take place, that's why they're two different terms. What's happening sounds like genuine ethnic cleansing, but hopefully isolated instances rather than policy.
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Jul 27, 2015 04:53
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I thought "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" were the same thing?
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Jul 27, 2015 04:55
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goose fleet posted:I thought "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" were the same thing? Genocide is when you commit mass murder for many reasons which include ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing by itself can mean different things like forced evictions and such, it's been Kurdish policy for a while in Iraq to guarantee for them the northern oilfields.
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Jul 27, 2015 04:57
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Volkerball posted:First really damning piece I've seen about peshmerga ethnic cleansing in Iraq. It's not genocide ethnic cleansing, but it seems like it's pretty certain that they are looting and burning down Arab villages, then blaming it on ISIS, with the intent of driving non-Kurds out of the region. I think Fade nailed it: fade5 posted:You stupid, stupid motherfuckers, why would you do this?
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Jul 27, 2015 04:59
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goose fleet posted:I thought "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide" were the same thing? If the countries A-istan and B-istan conduct a population transfer where they force their minority populations of ethnic groups B and A, respectively, to the other side of the border at gunpoint, then they have not committed genocide, but they have committed ethnic cleansing. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 05:42
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Oh, I see. The news tends to use it interchangeably.
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Jul 27, 2015 05:57
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goose fleet posted:Oh, I see. The news tends to use it interchangeably. Well it's rare to not do both at once.
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Jul 27, 2015 06:04
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Dr. Killjoy posted:Given all of the moaning and groaning regarding the Iran deal, that Iran won't honor it, that it'll kick off Holocaust 2: Electric Boogaloo, are there any good resources to the terms of the deal and how it will be enforced? Regarding the terms: the JCPOA text is available to the public. The two most recent episodes of Jeffrey Lewis's podcast Arms Control Wonk are a decent primer on the deal- the latest episode is focused on sanctions relief, provisions for escalation and "snap-back." On youtube, Harvard's Belfer Center has good lectures on nuclear science and public policy. If you want context, as an alternative to watching a whole bunch of Charlie Roses episodes I recommend reading these on your lunch break: http://www.cfr.org/publication/search/backgrounder.html?Ntt=iran
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Jul 27, 2015 06:32
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Genocide actually has a legal definition that the UN passed that's a bit different than the conventional understanding of it. quote:...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
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Jul 27, 2015 09:28
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Twitter Kurds are posting that Sarrin has been captured from ISIS.
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Jul 27, 2015 09:54
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Brown Moses posted:Twitter Kurds are posting that Sarrin has been captured from ISIS. Terrific
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Jul 27, 2015 09:59
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Al-Saqr posted:I don't know on what planet you live on where you think that Turkey will go through the trouble of fighting ISIS without being guaranteed that they can put the Kurds in their place as part of the deal. Exactly. The logic goes like this: ISIS is a horrfying monster of an organization. The Kurds are our allies against them. Turkey should have joined this alliance. The Kurds are oppressed in Turkey. Turkey should immediately stop doing that. They should support the Kurds against ISIS. They should stop getting so alarmed about Kurdish autonomy in Syria. Not unsound logic but you need to consider why all major political parties (except pro-Kurdish HDP) are either very hesistant about or simply against granting Kurds proper minority rights. The answer: A very large segment of our (Turkish) society is simply not mature enough for this. Don't expect much change in the immediate future. It's gonna take a while.
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Jul 27, 2015 11:18
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something original posted:Exactly. The logic goes like this: It's so weird to see the Turks mad about the Kurds when the Kurds were their bros and helped them out so much with the Armenians in that wonderful time, doing a lot of their dirty work.
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Jul 27, 2015 11:24
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Panzeh posted:It's so weird to see the Turks mad about the Kurds when the Kurds were their bros and helped them out so much with the Armenians in that wonderful time, doing a lot of their dirty work. Things went downhill in 1925 and didn't stop. Personally, I was surprised it took Erdogan this long to start up on the PKK and their allies. Ultimately, it isn't in the best interests of Turkish nationalists for either ISIS or the harder-line Kurdish groups to win too completely. If anything is grand strategy is probably for them to tear into each other until the end of time.
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Jul 27, 2015 12:05
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V. Illych L. posted:this, incidentally, is also why supporting the ouster of the muslim brotherhood in egypt is a really dumb thing to do if you're worried about militant islam as a political force granted they were a minority, but people trying to lecture the muslim brotherhood on the need to stop throwing tantrums and engage with the political process while they were being slaughtered in the street following a military coup still feels like the absolute nadir of this thread
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Jul 27, 2015 13:11
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So this is apparently happening. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/w...&smtyp=cur&_r=0 quote:Turkey and U.S. Agree on Plan to Clear ISIS From Strip of Syria’s North
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Jul 27, 2015 13:31
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I wonder if they're saying "safe zone" because that's what that Brookings Inst report called it? Anyone else read that report? Lots of "fixing syria is really hard and complicated, so how's about we just capture little parts of it and yeah that will make it better"
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Jul 27, 2015 14:07
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Count Roland posted:I wonder if they're saying "safe zone" because that's what that Brookings Inst report called it? to be fair, cutting them off from the turkish border, and thus new recruits, is a valid method of at least improving the situation.
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Jul 27, 2015 14:08
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WoodrowSkillson posted:to be fair, cutting them off from the turkish border, and thus new recruits, is a valid method of at least improving the situation. Uh yeah maybe but somebody's gonna need to put troops there, airstrikes can hold territory forever. And would this really stop recruits? If you can cut them off inside Syria, why not just do it at the Turkish border?
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Jul 27, 2015 14:14
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Count Roland posted:Uh yeah maybe but somebody's gonna need to put troops there, airstrikes can hold territory forever. Because a bunch of them are just regular dudes with no priors who happen to be visiting Turkey, and once they cross the border they are gone. Turkey owning and controlling an occupied land area where tourists are not allowed is very different.
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Jul 27, 2015 14:25
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WoodrowSkillson posted:to be fair, cutting them off from the turkish border, and thus new recruits, is a valid method of at least improving the situation. The problem with that is the Kurds have already captured all but a small slice of the border and they weren't going to let more ISIS fighters through, especially when they grabbed that last slice they were certain to get. If that was the goal, it would be a lot easier and probably better to just help the Kurds take that last bit. This seems more to be "Welp, the Kurds have been pretty successful... let's squash their ideas of Kurdistan now."
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Jul 27, 2015 14:38
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Shadoer posted:The problem with that is the Kurds have already captured all but a small slice of the border and they weren't going to let more ISIS fighters through, especially when they grabbed that last slice they were certain to get. If that was the goal, it would be a lot easier and probably better to just help the Kurds take that last bit.  YPG have shown no real signs of being able to cross Lake Assad and conquer that area.
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Jul 27, 2015 14:52
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Count Roland posted:I wonder if they're saying "safe zone" because that's what that Brookings Inst report called it? I mean, stabilizing it little by little sounds like a great plan on paper - just carve out a new beachhead and perimeter every few days, with occupation forces used like police inside the perimeter. Easy-peasy! Unfortunately that's the only place it's ever going to be a good plan. It's a terrible plan in practice and everyone but the Sentinelese and Neoconservatives know it'll end in horror just like it did in Iraq.
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Jul 27, 2015 15:07
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WoodrowSkillson posted:
Yeah that's why you'd help them take it or just focus the campaign on that area. Not safe zone the entire border.
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Jul 27, 2015 15:14
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Shadoer posted:Yeah that's why you'd help them take it or just focus the campaign on that area. Not safe zone the entire border. Where did you get "the entire border" from that article? It seems pretty plain that any plan involving the US would be to target the isis held area on the border and let the YPG keep doing their thing as well. Yes i know Turkey are dickheads but a few bombing runs is not the same as them invading YPG territory.
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Jul 27, 2015 15:17
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What is the modern perception of Ataturk, both in Turkey and in surrounding countries?
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Jul 27, 2015 15:19
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goose fleet posted:What is the modern perception of Ataturk, both in Turkey and in surrounding countries? he's basically a demigod in Official Turkey idk about the other countries in the area can't imagine the greeks are very fond of him
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Jul 27, 2015 15:20
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V. Illych L. posted:he's basically a demigod in Official Turkey idk about the other countries in the area How do people square his views on, and actions implementing, an enforced secularized government vs the increasingly steps away from secularization happening in the government today? Is that awkwardly ignored/skipt over that when ever he is discussed by conservatives, or have people attempt to re-write his views regarding that? I always find it fascinating when politicians end up revering old historical figures who likely would of hated them had they actually meet.
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Jul 27, 2015 15:28
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Because a bunch of them are just regular dudes with no priors who happen to be visiting Turkey, and once they cross the border they are gone. Turkey owning and controlling an occupied land area where tourists are not allowed is very different. Yeah all those legitimate tourists visiting the Turkish-Syrian border. Wouldn't want to inconvenience them.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:00
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Count Roland posted:Yeah all those legitimate tourists visiting the Turkish-Syrian border. Wouldn't want to inconvenience them. Once they are in Turkey they can make their way across the border, are you suggesting Turkey simply stop all tourism? This allows them to set up an actual militarized zone where they can tightly control access.
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Jul 27, 2015 17:14
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Nasrullah of Hezbollah is trolling turkey. That is kind of funny. Edit: turkey is denying claims it repeatedly attacked the ypg. Also investigating the claims. so I guess turkey isn't officially/overtly planning on doing that. Hopefully the ypg don't get suckered. Torpor fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Jul 27, 2015 |
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Jul 27, 2015 17:34
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This safe zone is a fascinating development. I don't know enough to say how much this really disadvantages the Kurds, but as Woodrow said it seems like taking land West of lake Assad wasn't going to happen anytime soon. In fact, if this action frees up rebels to take the east of Aleppo, this could be a major domino towards Assad's defeat while still maintaining plausible deniability.
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Jul 27, 2015 18:11
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Has China's position on Assad changed at all? Seems towards the start of the conflict all the talk was on Russia and China, then ISIS emerged and Assad started taking some losses and it was all about Hizbollah and Iran.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:11
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Ianiniho posted:Has China's position on Assad changed at all? Seems towards the start of the conflict all the talk was on Russia and China, then ISIS emerged and Assad started taking some losses and it was all about Hizbollah and Iran. China tends to be okay with the idea that a government can do whatever the gently caress it wants to its people.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:32
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Al-Saqr posted:started most of those wars in aggression in the first place, but because What planet, exactly, are you living on, where you believe this is true? Unless you count "existing" and "not getting snowed under in 1948" as "starting the wars", which many more strident anti-Israel types do.
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Jul 27, 2015 19:54
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-Troika- posted:What planet, exactly, are you living on, where you believe this is true? Unless you count "existing" and "not getting snowed under in 1948" as "starting the wars", which many more strident anti-Israel types do. This is not the thread to talk about it. Also, do yourself a favor and please pick up a couple of history books and read them objectively outside of what propaganda-trash you probably got your comments from. knowledge is power. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 27, 2015 19:58
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Al-Saqr posted:This is not the thread to talk about it. Also, do yourself a favor and please pick up a couple of history books and read them objectively outside of what propaganda-trash you probably got your comments from. knowledge is power. Mabye you shouldn't have brought it up if you don't want people to talk about it!
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Jul 27, 2015 20:17
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