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Military vessels being rusty pieces of poo poo is just symptomatic of all the things wrong with the Navy that they can't or won't fix; the follow-up to the ProPublica piece about the Fitzgerald collision is pretty damning https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/
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Jun 30, 2023 07:48
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Btw, there are already a bunch of reports about how ships still actively in commission have critical systems down or malfunctioning, they should go to dry dock or at least a prolonged maintenance period to get them fixed, but it simply isn't possible because the Navy is so overstretched. It is a big reason why the US Navy despite its size, is not ready for a shooting war (along with a bunch of boondoggle projects and wasted spending).
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Jun 30, 2023 10:58
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The Oldest Man posted:"my sailors are all exhausted and we dont have enough time for training"
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Jun 30, 2023 13:27
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Warships rusting is absolutely anathema. It has nothing to do with structural integrity and everything to do with the basic standards of discipline and daily routine at sea. I'm not saying return to the brightwork of the "Buff and Black" Royal Navy, though it wouldn't hurt, but goddamn surface combatants with visible rust points to a standard that has collapsed.
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Jun 30, 2023 13:31
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Frosted Flake posted:Warships rusting is absolutely anathema. It has nothing to do with structural integrity and everything to do with the basic standards of discipline and daily routine at sea. I'm not saying return to the brightwork of the "Buff and Black" Royal Navy, though it wouldn't hurt, but goddamn surface combatants with visible rust points to a standard that has collapsed. I think in the case of the US Navy it is actually getting worse not better looking at the ships.
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Jun 30, 2023 13:40
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Frosted Flake posted:Warships rusting is absolutely anathema. It has nothing to do with structural integrity and everything to do with the basic standards of discipline and daily routine at sea. I'm not saying return to the brightwork of the "Buff and Black" Royal Navy, though it wouldn't hurt, but goddamn surface combatants with visible rust points to a standard that has collapsed. just build the ship out of fuel tanks, problem solved pontoons are a known technology
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Jun 30, 2023 13:55
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   Buff back better.
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Jun 30, 2023 14:06
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Were Admiral Rozdestvensky's ships rusty?
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Jun 30, 2023 16:28
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are u really comparing commissioned paintings to photos lmao
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Jun 30, 2023 16:35
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fits my needs posted:are u really comparing commissioned paintings to photos lmao Find me a photo of a rusty RN ship before Thatcher
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Jun 30, 2023 16:37
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this owns
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Jun 30, 2023 16:54
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Bar Ran Dun posted:it’s not a abnormal thing anymore. they do underwater hull inspections instead of dock periods on commercial vessels regularly. there is an upper limit to how long they can go. that poo poo you see with your own eyes, an indifferent sea dissolving the folly of man??? actually it’s not a problem at all, for science has shown the true path to profit lies not in maintenance but in its opposite! god drat I love the hubris of liberalism
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Jun 30, 2023 16:58
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Frosted Flake posted:Warships rusting is absolutely anathema. It has nothing to do with structural integrity and everything to do with the basic standards of discipline and daily routine at sea. I'm not saying return to the brightwork of the "Buff and Black" Royal Navy, though it wouldn't hurt, but goddamn surface combatants with visible rust points to a standard that has collapsed. Yeah it's like "if you've got time to lean you've got time to clean" for warships. And somehow I don't think the problem on ships with like a third fewer crew than they're supposed to have and ultra long drydocking intervals and an increasingly worrying track record of collisions caused by poor training, poor maintenance, and fatigue is that the crew are just lounging.
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Jun 30, 2023 17:08
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The Oldest Man posted:Military vessels being rusty pieces of poo poo is just symptomatic of all the things wrong with the Navy that they can't or won't fix; the follow-up to the ProPublica piece about the Fitzgerald collision is pretty damning https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/ i remember one of the sailors that were co-ordinating rescue efforts on-board the ship posts in GIP and iirc they said leadership basically broke down immediately and the people in the lower rungs of the command structure basically had to takeover and co-ordinate themselves lol e: this was on the fitzgerald yellowcar has issued a correction as of 17:15 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 17:12
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yellowcar posted:i remember one of the sailors that were co-ordinating rescue efforts on-board the ship posts in GIP the article says pretty much the same thing, the captain got a TBI from the collison and was out of action entirely, the officer on watch broke down into a blubbering mess, and the guy in the CIC was useless
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Jun 30, 2023 17:34
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Raskolnikov38 posted:the captain got a TBI from the collison 
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Jun 30, 2023 17:36
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yellowcar posted:i remember one of the sailors that were co-ordinating rescue efforts on-board the ship posts in GIP Christ. That’s been the case for the worst accidents of my career, or pretty much any bad situation. Like a fatal rollover where lives were saved because a reservist OCdt on his first exercise happened to be a doctor in his real life. Otherwise it all went to poo poo and nobody knew what was going on. Another time we got lucky because someone had quit nursing to be an artilleryman (lol) and started working on the injured troop while everybody else was trying to pull themselves together. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 18:09 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 18:02
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Are you telling me the officer class is a bunch of nepotism-harvesting layabout managers with no concept of leadership or doing their jobs in a crisis? And the only people who know what they're doing are the overworked lower classes? Because militaries always reflect the societies that produce them? Preposterous
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Jun 30, 2023 19:53
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Frosted Flake posted:
how much use did the sails get on theses ships?
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Jun 30, 2023 20:06
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Those sails are like bayonets on battle rifles, they're there to promote elan and demoralize the enemy
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Jun 30, 2023 20:20
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yellowcar posted:i remember one of the sailors that were co-ordinating rescue efforts on-board the ship posts in GIP Finally a victory for anachism
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Jun 30, 2023 20:56
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Ardennes posted:Btw, there are already a bunch of reports about how ships still actively in commission have critical systems down or malfunctioning, they should go to dry dock or at least a prolonged maintenance period to get them fixed, but it simply isn't possible because the Navy is so overstretched. So what you need to understand is that ships are regulated. not neoliberal regulated, old school in person regulated in layers with the actual physical attendance of regulators. on the commercial side there are several layers . The first is the company itself and its SMS system (safety management system). These are basically in depth instructions for and documentation of every single thing done on the ship. All preventative maintenance is scheduled, and documented. There are vessel and company audits regularly. Then there is class and flag. Class boards to update certificates. There are certificates for every goddamn thing on the vessel. The company and the vessel don’t have much leverage over class. Class does its thing indicating for all those certificates and if there are problems they issue “conditions of class “ or outright instructions from get this poo poo fixed now to get it fixed by x date. The next levels up are port and flag state both inspect in person flag yearly and Port by a risk matrix. I’ve done these inspections myself. Now the navy doesn’t have to do anything it doesn’t want to. But it generally it follows roughly the same structure but without port/flag oversight. So navy vessels will have systems equivalent to the SMS. They have inspections and evaluations by class (but class can’t force them to do things in the way it can commercial vessels). So when you say “critical systems down or malfunctioning” that’s rather unspecific. It also could be… confusing. Let’s take a commercial example. On the bridge let’s say a vessel has a radar / plotting system. They decide to upgrade. A newer better unit is installed. Three years later the old system they don’t use breaks. That broken machine is a “critical systems down or malfunctioning” it’s installed ship safety equipment that is not functional. Class, flag, port, and the vessels SMS would identify it as a serious deficiency. But operationally its unused and redundant and was just never removed when the upgrade occurred. The navy can ignore situations like that while commercial vessels cannot. Now that said they do produce operational needs as well. But remember they do use class folks, they do have sophisticated systems to plan and document their maintenance. The last kindof important thing to remember is that this isn’t a fleet in being. They do poo poo with the navy.
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Jun 30, 2023 21:03
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Bar Ran Dun posted:So what you need to understand is that ships are regulated. not neoliberal regulated, old school in person regulated in layers with the actual physical attendance of regulators. i mean you can read the propublica article where critical systems not working include but are not limited to: all radars on the ship and its anti-ballistic missile system which was the fitzgerald's entire raison d'etre Raskolnikov38 has issued a correction as of 21:08 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 21:06
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Bar Ran Dun posted:
i would naively expect their inspection processes to be as metaphorically rusty as the ships are literally rusty, and they can get away with it
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Jun 30, 2023 21:07
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Frosted Flake posted:Warships rusting is absolutely anathema. It has nothing to do with structural integrity and everything to do with the basic standards of discipline and daily routine at sea. I'm not saying return to the brightwork of the "Buff and Black" Royal Navy, though it wouldn't hurt, but goddamn surface combatants with visible rust points to a standard that has collapsed. its extremely dumb to put folks over the side in a bosuns chair for this. which is what they would have done back in the day. the individual sailors are worth more to the navy now. practically speaking its extremely dangerous to do work over the side underway, and often it’s not allowed alongside anymore by the berths.
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Jun 30, 2023 21:08
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Delta-Wye posted:i would naively expect their inspection processes to be as metaphorically rusty as the ships are literally rusty, and they can get away with it It strikes me that having a ship fail on a critical system would look bad on the KPI for the inevitably careerist captain, and having multiple ships fail would look bad for KPI of the even more careerist admiral, and if even a couple captains in a fleet got byes due to 'operational necessity' (read: we don't have enough crew or ships lol) it might very quickly spiral into a situation where every admiral ensures that every ship gets passing grades until they can get a much belated private contractor drydock berth that takes 3x longer and costs 10x as much as regular maintenance would if done by a government dock. Which leads to the current situation.
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Jun 30, 2023 21:18
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and its something I do (work over the side, though much much less these days than a decade ago). it’s extremely dangerous even done properly. The Japanese require lethal fall height indicators on the side of vessels that call Japan. You will see them on the sides of handy sized general purpose ships when they are light in ballast. it’s a vertical long white rectangle with a vertical long red rectangle ontop. white is rupture internal organs or break limbs height red or higher is probably dead. They are well below the deck edge. its not marked on navy vessels but they have more than enough freeboard to be lethal. I’m telling you that from the perspective of I would not allow it to happen for superficial rust staining, if I were in charge. it’s a dumb and bad choice. Bar Ran Dun has issued a correction as of 21:59 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 21:26
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the whole question is actually why I think it’s a good thing they may partner with the Japanese and Koreans regarding shipyards. I think that eventually happens and it leads to matching Chinese building capacity.
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Jun 30, 2023 21:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:So what you need to understand is that ships are regulated. not neoliberal regulated, old school in person regulated in layers with the actual physical attendance of regulators. The issue was actual mission critical equipment they needed that wasn’t functioning, they simply didn’t have the time or ability to repair it. Yes, they can sign off on it, nothing is stopping them. It doesn’t mean they want to tangle with the PLAN though. I would say the issue with Korean and Japanese shipyards is they may need them as well and it is a good question about shipbuilding. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:58 on Jun 30, 2023 |
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Jun 30, 2023 23:36
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Megamissen posted:how much use did the sails get on theses ships? Those 3 were the first generation to be fully steam, all the time, those masts were for radios, signal flags, handling ship's boats, lookouts etc. The previous generations of ships, though, from 1830-1880, part of the issue was that the Royal Navy had to be worldwide, but at the time, quality coal was only known to exist in the UK. There's a book about the world-historic logistical operation to set up coal stations around the world. Title escapes me at the moment, I think the publisher was Brill. Early steam engines were incredibly inefficient, they burned mountains of coal and could not run for extended periods. As steam engines improved, people speculated ships could steam all the time, but because running out of coal in battle would be a disaster, they sailed long distances to be economical. However, the weight of machinery increased, as did the drag of paddles and propellers. That meant these ships performed worse and worse under sail as steam engines got better. It wasn't until a famous trial in, I think in the 1880's, that it was proven to be more efficient to steam the whole way. There was a famous test of this, but the specifics escape me. It's covered in the book Rules of the Game, along with the rest of the cultural shifts in the Victorian Royal Navy. The other issue was that coal burning was tremendously filthy and officers did not like dirtying their ships by steaming, while crews did not like all of the cleaning and painting that accompanied it, compared to climbing the rigging and other age of sail tasks. The steam navy changed what it meant to be a sailor and what sailors did all day. For the most part, like factory workers ashore, they didn't like it. Slavvy posted:Are you telling me the officer class is a bunch of nepotism-harvesting layabout managers with no concept of leadership or doing their jobs in a crisis? And the only people who know what they're doing are the overworked lower classes? Because militaries always reflect the societies that produce them? Preposterous lol Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 01:26 on Jul 1, 2023 |
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Jul 1, 2023 01:17
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Frosted Flake posted:The steam navy changed what it meant to be a sailor and what sailors did all day. For the most part, like factory workers ashore, they didn't like it. the steam to diesel transition was similar. my first cadet vessel was the last steam ship built in the US (the keel plate had the hull finished the day after I was born). it was a joy to be on. slow speed direct drive diesels and medium speed with a reduction gear diesels so much worse. the transition to gas turbine on the navy side was a very different beast. that might be the material condition driving deproffesionalization on the engine side.
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Jul 1, 2023 02:02
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there also should be a differentiation between early coal steam with fire tube boilers and later oil steam with controls /automation and water tube boilers. they’re as far apart as the wright brothers and jumbo jet.
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Jul 1, 2023 02:04
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i mean you can read the propublica article where critical systems not working include but are not limited to: all radars on the ship and its anti-ballistic missile system which was the fitzgerald's entire raison d'etre plenty of commercial vessels run with rusted hulls except they are also not outspending the entire PLA for decades
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Jul 1, 2023 03:26
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Crosspost They don't have advanced fuel tanks that let the ship get rusty between yard visits though so it'll be fine
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Jul 3, 2023 22:20
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it is almost a certainty to me that the US pairs with Japan and Korea at some point for Navy shipyards.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:35
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Slavvy posted:Crosspost lol the us will lose ww3
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Jul 3, 2023 22:38
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Bar Ran Dun posted:it is almost a certainty to me that the US pairs with Japan and Korea at some point for Navy shipyards.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:40
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Jon Pod Van Damm posted:Doesn't that leave them awfully vulnerable, being located in such close proximity to your peer competitor, in case of a war though? Can they really count on Japan and Korea to remain in the U.S. sphere of influence? To say nothing of their own needs for it
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Jul 3, 2023 22:42
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Jon Pod Van Damm posted:Doesn't that leave them awfully vulnerable, being located in such close proximity to your peer competitor, in case of a war though? Can they really count on Japan and Korea to remain in the U.S. sphere of influence? Their thinking will be that seeing as SK and Japan technically own those yards, they will be immune from attack and the PLAN will simply let them make American ships while there is a war on, much like they will let American companies based in china continue to make stuff for the US military because to do otherwise would be to violate international property laws
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Jul 3, 2023 22:52
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Jon Pod Van Damm posted:Doesn't that leave them awfully vulnerable, being located in such close proximity to your peer competitor, in case of a war though? Can they really count on Japan and Korea to remain in the U.S. sphere of influence? I think that if that happens nobody has shipyards shortly after it starts.
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Jul 3, 2023 22:54
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