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Y'all hating on Steeve but who else is going to buy you those precious seconds to shoot a bulk detonator before it gets close to the black box. 
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Jul 4, 2021 01:15
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Me, on Gunner, throwing a shield at the bulk to force it to turn around and put distance. Or me on scout with my IFGs. Or me, on Engie putting down a couple platforms to gently caress it’s pathfinding Or me, on Driller with my sticky flames slowing it to a crawl. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jul 4, 2021 |
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Jul 4, 2021 01:16
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Me, on Gunner, throwing a shield at the bulk to force it to turn around and put distance. Steeve's value isn't just being able to facetank a bulk, it's keeping chaff occupied so that's one less bug nibbling on your rear end while you're focusing the bulk. Keeping problems in manageable sizes is the goal. As someone who typically plays with randoms due to odd hours, I see a marked difference in number of team downs when Steeves are in play, especially at higher difficulties where chain downs start becoming common.
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Jul 4, 2021 01:35
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I'm not saying Steev is a bad perk. He's not a good bug (until he dies) but he is a useful bug. Much like the Cryocannon, I will never take him though. Death to all Glyphids.
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Jul 4, 2021 01:49
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Also, as fun as it can be, I never liked Fat Boy. Just too little ammo. My clean sweep setup obliterate bugs in nearly as wide a swathe and I get over twice the ammo and a much easier/long ranged grenade launch. Having a dozen rounds and being able to be extremely liberal with grenade shots is great. Note that the last patch actually totally revamped how good Fat Boy is; before you had to choose between 5 ammo or fast-projectile, now you can have your cake and eat it too. It's an incredibly strong (stealth) buff to get 3 nukes per resupply and guarantee that they always hit for maximum effect. I also noticed a few days ago that the thunderhead has the same single-target damage //ammo efficiency without OCs that the minigun does with the Lead Storm OC (and can even match for dps if you weirdly take both fire rate mods). I know they operate slightly differently and the way they waste ammo/miss shots is different, but its really heartbreaking to see how the giant loving minigun really doesn't live up to its promise. Like, I have to look for excuses to use it such as "oh it's mactera warning" or "no scouts and engi doesn't use stubby" to justify taking it to myself. I should probably just run big bertha and never look back =/
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Jul 4, 2021 01:50
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I still can't see myself taking it over the clean sweep though. But I'm also the weirdo that runs an MPA Warthog without autofire and uses turret-whip with a single 360 turret.
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Jul 4, 2021 01:53
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Serephina posted:I also noticed a few days ago that the thunderhead has the same single-target damage //ammo efficiency without OCs that the minigun does with the Lead Storm OC (and can even match for dps if you weirdly take both fire rate mods). I know they operate slightly differently and the way they waste ammo/miss shots is different, but its really heartbreaking to see how the giant loving minigun really doesn't live up to its promise. Like, I have to look for excuses to use it such as "oh it's mactera warning" or "no scouts and engi doesn't use stubby" to justify taking it to myself. I should probably just run big bertha and never look back =/ The minigun’s advantage is in long range accuracy mostly, allowing you to kill big things further away faster. At short to medium range or on smaller targets things even out. I like a good neurotoxin autocannon every once in a while but I generally run leadstorm with the slow spindown and accuracy mods and gunner is my most played class  For mobility and crowd control I’ll still run a fire based build with appropriate OCs and mods (including property specd bulldog)
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Jul 4, 2021 02:16
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Dogen posted:The minigun’s advantage is in long range accuracy mostly, allowing you to kill big things further away faster. At short to medium range or on smaller targets things even out. I agree that's the minigun's specialty, and it's the best at what it does, which is that plus sustained fire plus ammo efficiency, as the scout/subata/stubby can't be expected to do as much work, but I feel like the failing is in that line of work is very... under-needed. Like using those examples, a random scout loadout plus literally any other long-range weapon are sufficient for pretty much anything the game throws you at for extreme-range sniping (like wardens), and it's only once in a blue moon do you actually need the minigun to kill 3 breeders from across the cavern. 90% of the game is "killing swarms of grunts and killing big things (via weakpoints)" which the minigun can do, but not with such extravagance that you feel like an asset. Now I know the other 10% is oddball stuff that can randomly wipe the team (like weed tyrants, getting pinballed by rollers during a revive spiral, etc) and that it's important to not only play to your strengths but also weaknesses, but most thunderhead configs other than carpet and neurotoxin are spectacular generalists so that's not an issue. The reason I'm poo-pooing the minigun is it's my favorite weapon/class and I even run the same loadout that you do, so it bugs me that I feel so less cool than everyone else doing fun stuff so effectively.
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Jul 4, 2021 02:38
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You have to know that you’re cool to be a good minigunner. It’s not about showboating. Except for rock strikes, maybe.
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Jul 4, 2021 02:39
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Honestly, thinking on it a bit more, I just never recovered from Haz 5 runs back in the day (way back before it got gated behind an assignment). I've been playing with a group that's half new players, friends who picked up the game in the past couple months, and I can remember playing the game the same way they play the game. It's a chill fun little mining expedition with some enemies that sometimes pop up for you to shoot; a good time with some buddies. Meanwhile I turn into a twitching, neurotic, single-minded murder machine the moment I even think that I heard a bug. Part of the reason to kill 'em all ASAP is time efficiency, yes... but the other reason is that they will kill you so very quickly on high haz if they ever get to you. It's imperative to get them dead to minimize their chances to box you in or blindside you. Also I probably prefer the Bullet Hell minigun over the Carpet Bomber autocannon, so I must be a bad. Last time I mathed it out you needed to hit 3-4 bugs consistently with the autocannon splash to beat the minigun's cleave for DPS. Just got the neurotoxin OC though so I'll have to give that a try.
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Jul 4, 2021 02:50
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Galaga Galaxian posted:I'm not saying Steev is a bad perk. He's not a good bug (until he dies) but he is a useful bug.
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Jul 4, 2021 04:29
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Serephina posted:I also noticed a few days ago that the thunderhead has the same single-target damage //ammo efficiency without OCs that the minigun does with the Lead Storm OC (and can even match for dps if you weirdly take both fire rate mods). Here's the max dps no OCs autocannon build:  And here's a typical(not quite single target max dps because blowthrough instead of AB) LSLS build:  That's just raw damage. Here's the important part. With weakpoints and accuracy enabled in the damage calculator's simulation, here's the same builds. Autocannon:  LSLS:  Even with weakpoints enabled, the autocannon's dps still actually falls due to accuracy. (And it's actually still a bit worse if you switch to the accuracy mod, though realistically it will be better for ammo efficiency.) Meanwhile, the minigun gets a huge boost. This isn't just due to the accuracy, it's also because the minigun gets the full benefit of weakpoints while autocannon doesn't. With the t1 direct damage mod, about 1/3 (34.6%) of the autocannon's damage is area damage. This, like almost all forms of AoE in deeprock, doesn't get boosted by weakpoints. So even when your autocannon shot luckily hits a bug in the face, only 65.4% of that shot's damage is getting boosted, compared to the minigun which is getting 100% of its damage multiplied by the weakpoint(and is hitting the weakpoint way more often). Those numbers are from simulating accuracy at only 5 meters, which is pretty close. Coincidentally, here's max dps big bertha with those settings:  It's still worse than LSLS minigun, and notably also falls behind it in ammo efficiency(and further in DPS) in situations where you can enable blowthrough. Around 25% of big bertha's damage is still AoE damage, so it's still losing out a noticable amount of weakpoint damage compared to minigun in addition to being less accurate. Also realistically you don't want to run max DPS big bertha, you want that t3 direct damage up, but that drops burst damage further to 316(and sustained slightly less, to 206). Here's all 3 at a comfortable medium range of 10 meters, which you will commonly find yourself shooting at bugs at: No OCs max dps autocannon:  Max dps big bertha:  LSLS:  tl;dr: accuracy matters even fairly close and autocannon doesn't get good value against weakpoints. It's worth noting that this is against 2x weakpoints. Against a praetorian with a 1x weakpoint and a big dumbass hitbox, autocannon looks a bit better in comparison(big bertha roughly tying LSLS if you're fairly close to the prae)-but then if you look at an oppressor which has explosive resist, it looks a bit worse again. And against enemies with better weakpoints like mactera, wardens, bulk detonators, minigun looks better still. Also dreadnoughts do have weakpoints that do multiply damage, except for twins who have a 1x weakpoint-but vs twins you want accuracy both for shooting the mouth and shooting arbalest hanging out on a distant wall.
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Jul 4, 2021 14:41
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btw max damage VB magnum shooting a burning praetorian/opressor gets 896 burst dps, and 1740/870 burst/sustained dps shooting a burning bulk detonator or warden  so really outside of elimination where dreadnoughts can't be set on fire burning hell+volatile bullets magnum is the best for single target dps and it's not even loving close LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jul 4, 2021 |
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Jul 4, 2021 14:51
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VB Great for crowds, too!
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Jul 4, 2021 14:59
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IronicDongz posted:Numbers stuff Thanks for that! My comment was mainly about the ammo efficiency while having near-ballpark dps, but the weakpoint stuff is certainly a good point. It's interesting to see so much hard math on minigun numbers, there's still stuff prominently brought up by google on people crunching the numbers back in 1.0. Something about the gun brings out the grognard in us all it seems! Anyways, I've always felt that the minigun always had 'enough' dps to do whatever, and my assumption was that using the flak to poke away at praetorians was hugely wasteful, but it turns out to be mostly time-wasting. That being said, now that the game's finally given me every weapon OC (I can't finish most DD's due to a bug), I'm just running all the 'wrong' builds and having a blast. But I still shed a tear for my mistaken dream of what I thought the minigun was.
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Jul 5, 2021 04:19
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Serephina posted:Something about the gun brings out the grognard in us all it seems!
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Jul 5, 2021 04:40
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Lichtenstein posted:Bosco is generally more useful than a single human-led dwarf. bosco is a scout that can fly and carry stuff for you. i found a condenced gold as my team hit the mine head launch button and i was wishing i had a bosco to carry it back to the drop pod as i slowly waddled across my platform jump puzzle i made to get there while droping the gold to shoot bugs when i got swarmed. when i got to the pod the turn in box was to high up for me to turn my gold in so it got to ride back in my pod seat. but i also just solo'd an aquarq mission by sitting at the mine head and ordering bosco around to get my aquarqs and bring them back. i even got two jadiz the same way. easiest no shield promo mission i ever did. its also the only no shield mission i ever did =)
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Jul 6, 2021 21:47
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Is it just me or is Engineer waaay better at killing poo poo than the other dwarves? Even his basic shotgun & grenade launcher will pulp bugs like nobody's business. Once you have the SMG, breach cutter, and Gemini Defender sentries, it's trivial to get as many kills as the rest of the team put together.
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Jul 8, 2021 02:15
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Engie usually tops the kills list if he keeps his turret filled up. Moreso with well-placed nukes and proxy nades; he should have no issues holding a choke point by himself.
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Jul 8, 2021 02:24
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Depends on what poo poo you need killing. But I often top the kill # chart as engineer, yes. But I also do on Gunner and Driller just as often it feels. All three are pretty killy with the right setup, the only one "lacking" is Scout, but he's also capable of being a fearsome assassin that can erase Opressors in the blink of an eye with a well tossed IFG, flank and spank with M1000/GK1 magdump, and/or Nukov spray/sawn-off blasts.
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Jul 8, 2021 02:24
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Engi's killcount is typically inflated by turrets clearning swarmers, but yes he's the 'stand your ground' dwarf with all of the boom... who suddenly falls over if standing your ground is a bad idea. Most clutch/impressive engi players I've seen tend to run perks like Dash/etc as getting out of trouble is a major sticking point for him.
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Jul 8, 2021 03:04
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Engineer has great general killing power that tends to give him the top kill counts, but when combat's getting really messy, I feel much more confident as a cryo driller. Constantly locking enemies down and healing from vampire-drills means you can go toe to toe with almost any type and quantity of bugs when other classes have to dance around and kite things. Not to mention that you're also keeping your teammates safe while enhancing their damage, and your killing power isn't that much lower to compensate - if I'm being aggressive with my drills and EPC then I'm usually not far behind engineers in kill counts.
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Jul 8, 2021 03:30
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Don't forget engineers proximity mines exploding whole squads of bugs at a time.
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Jul 8, 2021 11:34
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Hwurmp posted:Is it just me or is Engineer waaay better at killing poo poo than the other dwarves? Even his basic shotgun & grenade launcher will pulp bugs like nobody's business. Once you have the SMG, breach cutter, and Gemini Defender sentries, it's trivial to get as many kills as the rest of the team put together. Engineer has auto aim turrets which inflate his kill count. He also competes with the driller for the strongest AoE in a game where youre attacked by swarms of melee enemies. Driller has more consistent AoE, engineers does more damage. You can easily clear a dozen bugs qit a well placed grenade or breach cutter shot. He is also the most ammo hungry.
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Jul 8, 2021 11:52
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Speaking of Engineer, what grenade launcher overclock do yall run with? I usually use the rocketjump one as that burst mobility and extra ammo is super useful, and it can still oneshot grunts
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Jul 8, 2021 13:17
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I use Fat Boy because it's versatile. Sometimes I'll just nuke the Nitra because the Scout is clueless. I don't know when GSG changed it but grenade shots seem to bounce off the Heartstone surroundings now. Kind of worrisome when you take a shot and you have no idea where it and it still hasn't landed two seconds later.
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Jul 8, 2021 13:27
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Got my engineer up to level 18 and played with grenade launcher OC's for the first time last night. Hyper propellant was brutal on the og dreadnaught. Still had enough AoE to kill all the grunts when shot at a distraction grenade, too. Pretty happy with it so far.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:00
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Serephina posted:Engi's killcount is typically inflated by turrets clearning swarmers, but yes he's the 'stand your ground' dwarf with all of the boom... who suddenly falls over if standing your ground is a bad idea. Most clutch/impressive engi players I've seen tend to run perks like Dash/etc as getting out of trouble is a major sticking point for him. Dash is S-tier for engineer, but a lot of it is also just being very liberal and proactive with the platform gun so you can parkours anywhere on a moment's notice. Blowjob Overtime posted:Got my engineer up to level 18 and played with grenade launcher OC's for the first time last night. Hyper propellant was brutal on the og dreadnaught. Still had enough AoE to kill all the grunts when shot at a distraction grenade, too. Pretty happy with it so far. Hyperprop is a lot of fun. Good against goo bombers, grabbers and spitballers too. Yeah you lose out on some actual AE but plasmabursters still exist so that's not really an issue.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:08
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I've got 2 builds for engi. One runs fat boy for huge AoE swarm clearing during waves and point defense, and the other runs hyperprop for eliminations and big targets. There's nothing as satisfying as launching a nuke just past a choke point so every bug that makes it through is as thin as tissue paper... except being able to boop oppressors out of existence with the click of a button.
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Jul 8, 2021 14:58
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What's the general preferred turret setup? Currently I'm running 2, 2, 1, 1 but I have no idea if it's 'best'.
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Jul 8, 2021 21:23
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Is there any real reason to go with the one big turret over the Gemini turrets? You're trading less damage output for slightly less setup time? Technically the big turret is more ammo efficient, but the double turrets just plain get more ammo too so I'm not sure how the cost benefit here ever shakes out in the big turret's favor
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Jul 8, 2021 21:57
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up until relatively recently the double turrets had much less ammo to go around and would run dry much more quickly. nowadays i think the only reason is if you don't want to micromanage as much.
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Jul 8, 2021 22:01
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The problem with the single turret imo is its like saying walking is more energy efficient. It's true, but you might as well run to get to where you're going quicker. So long as you don't run out of ammo before you get there, you're in the clear. Even if you do run out of ammo that means you'll get guaranteed 100% efficiency out of a supply pod lol
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Jul 8, 2021 22:15
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also turns out the ammo change was a) nearly a year ago and 2) a single extra full turret reload so it didn't even take that huge of a buff to make the single turret even more obsolete
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Jul 8, 2021 22:19
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I’m definitely off the try-hard meta but I use a single turret with the 360 degree setup and a turret whip’d shotgun. I treat the turret like a mini artillery gun, I constantly whip it, and whip it good.
Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 22:25
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hi drfinioff the try-hard meta
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Jul 8, 2021 22:27
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Phone typing is fun!
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Jul 8, 2021 22:30
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Floppychop posted:What's the general preferred turret setup? Currently I'm running 2, 2, 1, 1 but I have no idea if it's 'best'.
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Jul 8, 2021 22:31
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I use the limited-arc turret combined with the gemini system. Lots of being an ammo mule but it's proper killy when set up with good positioning
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Jul 8, 2021 22:36
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nutty stage 2 edd btw. 10 aquarqs and a dreadnought+swarmageddon on a small magma core map gotta kill that dread a s a p
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Jul 8, 2021 22:47
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