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WarpDogs posted:yeah, but even in that context it's especially bad in PoE1 Perhaps. I'd say Aloth/Eder/Kana have good reasons to follow you. Durance has a vision which is a bit of a stretch I guess but you can go with it if you want. Pallegina/Hiravias/Maneha/Zahua could probably do their poo poo on their own without following you. Grieving Mother is a weirdo and could do whatever for whatever reason. Devil just sees you as a convenient excuse to get away from Galvino. I do agree there's more reason for companions to follow you in Deadfire when you're well established as a person of importance. Raygereio posted:KotOR2 makes a lot more sense if you keep in mind that it was mostly Chris Avellone (he wrote all the companions except Mandalore & Bao-Dur). And he did not like Star Wars. I read that he did a lot of research on Star Wars in order to write Kotor and because he wanted to be faithful to the setting. Whether or not he liked it or not I dunno but I don't feel like Kotor2 doesn't fit. Someone like Kreia seems like a natural reaction to the dogmatic views of the Sith/Jedi. I think she's probably his finest character other than Durance.
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Dec 19, 2022 02:42
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KOTOR 2 is an outrageously better game then DA2 with the restored content mod installed but DA2's Friendship/Rivalry system is much better even if some of the characters are absolutely awful dogshit. Which is fine because I can tell Aveline she's an awful piece of poo poo
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Dec 19, 2022 02:56
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RevolverDivider posted:KOTOR 2 is an outrageously better game then DA2 with the restored content mod installed but DA2's Friendship/Rivalry system is much better even if some of the characters are absolutely awful dogshit. Which is fine because I can tell Aveline she's an awful piece of poo poo You can do this in kotor 2 within missing anything. Except maybe for atton. Dudes so eager to follow the exile you'd probably have to route around all his "the exile breathed. Influence gained: Atton" moments
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Dec 19, 2022 03:18
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FoolyCharged posted:You can do this in kotor 2 within missing anything. Except maybe for atton. Dudes so eager to follow the exile you'd probably have to route around all his "the exile breathed. Influence gained: Atton" moments If you follow Kreia's teachings you will def lose Influence with Atton. This is what I did in my one and only run. Dude does not like being [Force Persuasion['ed. Speaking of Kreia, she doesn't much like it if you disagree with her "me first" philosophy. I think she's a great character but people who say she only disapproves of bad arguments are fooling themselves. When someone tells you "your friends exist just to be used" and you say "but I like people..." and she disapproves, that isn't blind idealism. Whatever virtues she has, she is 100% at the end of the day a misanthrope and doesn't really like to be told to teh contrary.
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Dec 19, 2022 03:25
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Right but to do that you have to know and plan around where those opportunities are, while also knowing where all the events where he always gains influence are so he can avoid being in the party for those. To turn him into an opposing faction jedi and keep him there takes a lot of forethought/knowledge that isn't as required for other party members (Except poor, forgotten Bao and his complete lack of influence triggers)
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Dec 19, 2022 03:55
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*leans in really close to the kjeyboard* Star SNORES
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Dec 19, 2022 20:45
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FoolyCharged posted:Right but to do that you have to know and plan around where those opportunities are, while also knowing where all the events where he always gains influence are so he can avoid being in the party for those. To turn him into an opposing faction jedi and keep him there takes a lot of forethought/knowledge that isn't as required for other party members Getting enough influence for HK47 is also a nightmare. Even with the jokes about dumping presents on party members in DA:O to rank up their trust/affection/loyalty it's still a better system then needing a bunch of open world interactions, unless you have such a surplus of options you won't get locked out unless you never run with that character. Kotor 2 also, I believe, had a pretty noticeable shortage of lightsabers, since the main plot required you to re-craft your original, while in 1 they were common enough every Jedi could be dual wielding if you wanted.
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Dec 19, 2022 23:22
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pentyne posted:Getting enough influence for HK47 is also a nightmare. It also just doesn't tell you that you can annoy your party members into revealing their life story and letting you jedi/sith them. I found out about that one nearly a decade later from an lp.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:23
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NikkolasKing posted:If you follow Kreia's teachings you will def lose Influence with Atton. This is what I did in my one and only run. Dude does not like being [Force Persuasion['ed. There's a read of KOTOR which may or may not be intended that everything you hear from Kreia is really just her attempts to externalise away her own colossal failings as a teacher. Oh and of course, she's the villian which people seem to forget should give some indication as to what the game thinks of her.
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Dec 20, 2022 00:38
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pentyne posted:Getting enough influence for HK47 is also a nightmare. I kinda like Lightsabers being scarce since when you get one you feel like a big badass for all the effort involved.
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Dec 20, 2022 01:55
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Kreia was awesome and had some really interesting things to say about the force, and as a 16yo who had only ever watched the movies it really blew my mind. But whenever I replay KOTOR2, I wish for a version of Kreia where her villainous traits were sanded down a bit more aggressively. Avellone's goal was to write a sympathetic Sith Lord, and I think that comes across a little too literally - I want her to be a lot less sith-y. You could have created meaningful conflict without making Kreia a spiteful, cynical misanthrope, as it clashes with everything else she has going on and maybe that was the point of Kreia, but if so I'd argue they tried to do too much with her. Simply wanting to explosively upend the status quo (of which you are inescapably tied to) and serving as both your teacher and maternal figure would have been enough to create a tragic, inevitable confrontation I compare her a lot to Solas, as they serve similar roles in the story. Solas would have been much less likable or interesting if he had been written more like Kreia or Morrigan
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Dec 20, 2022 02:49
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The weird part of lightsabers in KOTOR2 is that the second you do build your own they just become part of the standard rotation of gear drops in every loot table. Suddenly random thugs on nar shaddaa have them just sitting around in their boxes. They're limited for about 2 planets (1 if you know where to get the parts) qnd then suddenly ate everywhere and you end the game with 200.
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Dec 20, 2022 03:14
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People give KOTOR2 props for turning KOTOR1's happy little family on its head but to Bioware's credits they did include a little bit of conflict. The party has a lot of random asides that are mostly arguing (almost everyone hates Canderous, as you'd expect) but KOTOR1 is held together with duct tape so you might see like...two of these conversations in an entire playthrough Kinda funny DAI would have a similar party banter bug all those years laters
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Dec 20, 2022 03:16
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WarpDogs posted:Kreia was awesome and had some really interesting things to say about the force, and as a 16yo who had only ever watched the movies it really blew my mind. Yeah Solas does have his rear end in a top hat moments even pre reveal but generally comes across as more sympathetic than Keria does.
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Dec 20, 2022 04:08
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WarpDogs posted:Kreia was awesome and had some really interesting things to say about the force, and as a 16yo who had only ever watched the movies it really blew my mind. Yeah, the fact she's such a spiteful jerk at heart kind of undercuts the whole "wise teacher" thing really; if she's so wrong about such basic things as "catch more flies with honey than vinegar" or "don't constantly antagonize the people YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON", it's hard to give her much credit for wisdom. When she talks to the PC about "I don't have your gift to get people to follow you" I was like "yeah, that's an issue with being an rear end in a top hat!". She does wind up being an interesting character and she certainly has some good points (I think she was where I remember hearing "The Sith are defined by their hatred of the Jedi", which I've always taken to heart because it explains so much of what they do), but I always was dubious of all the fanboys who kept raving she was right about everything. quote:I compare her a lot to Solas, as they serve similar roles in the story. Solas would have been much less likable or interesting if he had been written more like Kreia or Morrigan Yeah, Solas is a MUCH more interesting character; he certainly does "sincere ally to opponent" much better overall, not least because if you're friendly with him he's actually torn about being an opponent. Kreia shapes the PC but I feel like the PC doesn't do enough shaping back. Which is actually one thing I'll give Morrigan over Kreia, Morrigan's cynicism comes from a place where it's the only thing she's really known thanks to her mother. and you can occasionally get her to stop and think in DAO about things (I liked hitting back on her "we should let these idiots die" attitude in the Tower by pointing out she could very well have wound up there had her luck been different). Admittedly she also got additional games to grow unlike Kreia, I can't call her an over-cynical idiot later on.
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Dec 20, 2022 07:12
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Lotta folks complain about the damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with the guy asking for a handout, but I was a lot angrier with the Jedi Master stuff. If you spare them, they reward you by attacking you and trying to strip you of the Force again. Kreia shows up, saves you, and kills them all. If you kill the Jedi Masters when you find them and thus never get this scene, what happens instead is Kreia is angrier with you than she ever is at any other point in the game. enouncing you a supreme failure and disappointment. I killed them in my one and only run. Kreia made me feel bad for it but knowing what happens if you don't, I'm like "gently caress it." I understand her reasoning - she wanted to be validated and prove to the Jedi she wasn't wrong, but it still sucks.
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Dec 20, 2022 17:06
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To me, Kreia boils down to an insecure little pissant who's jealous that she's special but not special and has it out for the universe for not making her the main character like she thinks she deserves to be.
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Dec 20, 2022 17:11
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NikkolasKing posted:Lotta folks complain about the damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with the guy asking for a handout, but I was a lot angrier with the Jedi Master stuff. I mean, you do sort of just completely destroy the validation of her life's work among what's left of her peers if you do that
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Dec 20, 2022 17:15
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Cythereal posted:To me, Kreia boils down to an insecure little pissant who's jealous that she's special but not special and has it out for the universe for not making her the main character like she thinks she deserves to be. So Avellone really was just writing himself but in Star Wars.
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Dec 20, 2022 17:16
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Kreia's main flaw is that no matter what you do, she asks if you're sure about it. Gamerz don't like to take sass from their Bideo James. That's also what makes her so great. It doesn't matter what she thinks of you, as long as you believe in yourself.
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Dec 20, 2022 17:30
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lotta people itt sound like the portal 2 playtesters who cried because glados was too mean to them.
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Dec 20, 2022 17:37
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Wolfsheim posted:People give KOTOR2 props for turning KOTOR1's happy little family on its head but to Bioware's credits they did include a little bit of conflict. The party has a lot of random asides that are mostly arguing (almost everyone hates Canderous, as you'd expect) but KOTOR1 is held together with duct tape so you might see like...two of these conversations in an entire playthrough Oh yeah the fact that there are a ton of one-time things that trigger exactly once so unless you know to bring X character along for that one time you miss out on characterization or sometimes just the few chances to get influence that actually made it into the game (bao-dur says "general" from very far away from a mic in an echo-y bathroom)
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Dec 20, 2022 17:44
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Shugojin posted:(bao-dur says "general" from very far away from a mic in an echo-y bathroom) love that goober
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Dec 20, 2022 17:48
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Buschmaki posted:I mean, you do sort of just completely destroy the validation of her life's work among what's left of her peers if you do that They're going to betray me for saving their useless lives. Again. I don't care about her life's work, they deserve to die.
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Dec 20, 2022 18:00
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Nefarious 2.0 posted:lotta people itt sound like the portal 2 playtesters who cried because glados was too mean to them. A good villain usually has a point beyond "I'm mad that you're the protagonist and I'm not."
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Dec 20, 2022 18:04
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NikkolasKing posted:They're going to betray me for saving their useless lives. Again. You've failed to learn the lessons of both your masters, the jedi order or darth traya......
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Dec 20, 2022 18:04
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Cythereal posted:A good villain usually has a point beyond "I'm mad that you're the protagonist and I'm not." I think that's a very strange interpretation of Kreia since the Exile is the only person in the game she treats with any level of respect or affection.
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Dec 20, 2022 18:12
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WarpDogs posted:Kreia was awesome and had some really interesting things to say about the force, and as a 16yo who had only ever watched the movies it really blew my mind. Honestly Kreia wouldn't make sense if she wasn't a spiteful, cynical misanthrope. Her entire issue is that the Force drives everything, overriding anyone's individuality and will, regardless of their actions. So long as the force exists it's impossible to tell if something someone did was their actual choice, or just the Force manipulating the universe. It's horseshit and would make anyone a cynic.
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Dec 20, 2022 18:14
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Shugojin posted:Oh yeah the fact that there are a ton of one-time things that trigger exactly once so unless you know to bring X character along for that one time you miss out on characterization or sometimes just the few chances to get influence that actually made it into the game (bao-dur says "general" from very far away from a mic in an echo-y bathroom) Does restoring the cut content give Bao-Dur... well, anything?
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Dec 20, 2022 18:56
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NikkolasKing posted:I think that's a very strange interpretation of Kreia since the Exile is the only person in the game she treats with any level of respect or affection. It's almost like she's a manipulative person or something. Weird, I know.
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Dec 20, 2022 19:21
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would kotor2 hold up if i were to try it for the first time in tyool 2022? about a decade ago, after playing da:o, i tried kotor1 after intense recommendation and its age really showed for me, it seemed to come from that unfortunate transitional era of gaming where the industry was trying bold, new ideas that were fresh at the time, but have since been completely outdone by its successors, leaving these progenitors looking very dusty by comparison
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Dec 20, 2022 21:07
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KOTOR2 is a slightly better version of KOTOR1 in terms of combat mechanics but pretty much exactly the same otherwise, incredible jank and all
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Dec 20, 2022 21:27
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If you like Star Wars you'll probably enjoy it despite the jank, but if you're ambivalent towards the universe I don't think it provides anything special
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Dec 20, 2022 21:48
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Dawgstar posted:Does restoring the cut content give Bao-Dur... well, anything? A little bit I think? But iirc it's still hard to get influence with him because he just doesn't have interactions
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Dec 20, 2022 22:04
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VostokProgram posted:If you like Star Wars you'll probably enjoy it despite the jank, but if you're ambivalent towards the universe I don't think it provides anything special Yeah I'd echo this. Kotor 1/2 are well written Star Wars stories with good characters but if you don't like Star Wars they might not work for you.
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Dec 20, 2022 22:06
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Dawgstar posted:So Avellone really was just writing himself but in Star Wars. It's really interesting to read his thoughts on Kreia. On a whole, he felt like he failed to write her in the way he intended. He wanted a sympathetic Sith Lord, and she was obviously a mouthpiece for his own frustrations with Star Wars lore, but he knew she came across more as annoying and crusty than wise and challenging. He also called the endgame reveal of her motivations hamfisted, which I think most everyone would agree with Yet she's also one of his favorite characters he's written. Nefarious 2.0 posted:lotta people itt sound like the portal 2 playtesters who cried because glados was too mean to them. I don't want Kreia to be nicer, but I do wish her conflict arose from her very unique position and views as opposed to her being a Sith Lord with all that entails
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Dec 20, 2022 22:21
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GLaDOS and SHODAN are both wonderful in their own ways.
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Dec 20, 2022 22:55
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WarpDogs posted:It's really interesting to read his thoughts on Kreia. On a whole, he felt like he failed to write her in the way he intended. He wanted a sympathetic Sith Lord, and she was obviously a mouthpiece for his own frustrations with Star Wars lore, but he knew she came across more as annoying and crusty than wise and challenging. He also called the endgame reveal of her motivations hamfisted, which I think most everyone would agree with Unless you actively hate her, I think most everyone would agrees she's far and away the best character in KOTOR II. What other party member gets even a fraction of the discussion that she does?
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Dec 20, 2022 22:59
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Kreia and Durance are pretty unlikeable but they are well written characters. Avellone's best imo. It's interesting that Durance turned out well at all considering Avellone apparently wrote way too much content for him and Obsidian had to cut it all down
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Dec 20, 2022 23:46
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NikkolasKing posted:Unless you actively hate her, I think most everyone would agrees she's far and away the best character in KOTOR II. What other party member gets even a fraction of the discussion that she does? Bao-Dur, in this topic. But not for why you'd want. 😉
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Dec 20, 2022 23:46
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