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Namtab posted:In that case: I understand that, it's just that "can't keep around those who slow us down" line I think I had the problem with.
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Mar 29, 2015 03:34
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SO NOW I WAKE UP EVERY MORNING WITH A FAT CUP OF PISS
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Mar 29, 2015 04:34
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Clawshrimpy posted:I understand that, it's just that "can't keep around those who slow us down" line I think I had the problem with. It seems to me like you have had some hard times. I get that, I have had hard times too. But the hard times you have hard seem to have stuck in your mind so incredibly hard that whenever you see something that reminds you of those bad times you rip it out of its actual context and stick it in the very specific context of your personal history. And then you judge the situation completely divorced from the actual context, resulting in sweeping and extreme judgement that, to anyone else, seems like irrationality. Because it is. You draw irrational and frankly insane conclusions. For example, when Simon punched Rossiu. Earlier in this thread you championed the position that Simon was wrong for hitting Rossiu. In other words, letting someone kill themselves in a single, temporary and completely unjustified moment of guilt is the moral option instead of stopping them by causing brief pain. Just stop and think about this for a while. You are actually saying that it would have been better if Rossiu had killed himself, blown his brains out with a gun, than for someone to have caused him brief, relatively minor pain. That is an insane position. Can you see that? You cannot apply the context of your past to every punch ever thrown. You can't apply the context of your past every time someone says "man up". Well, you can, but it will make you a completely unlikable person that no one will want to be around. It is absolutely and completely wrong and evil to hit someone. Except when it is not. Context matters.
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Mar 29, 2015 04:49
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I decided before I go to bed to watch the next episode. Overman King Gainer Episode 13 So, the battle with Brunhilde continues, Sara and Asuham end up in the cockpit of Brunhilde together with Asuham taking Sara prisoner, Gain explains how the hell Brunhilde's arm ended up on Gotchko, and it turns out it just loving turned up in a shop. After Gain has to reflect one of the gravity attacks with that special arm and with neither Gainer not the St. Regan guy being able to do anything about Brunhilde, Gain, Gainer and the other fall back, to come up with a new plan, as Asuham has Sara help him get Brunhilde controls working again, which leads to a vision about the first Meeyah and the first Exodus, and the Five Wise Man's Overmen carrying away something Meeyah refers to as an "Overdevil". Once back at Exodus HQ, Gain calls the others for a strategy meeting, and get this, the Exodus strategy is to forget the whole thing and abandon Sara did you expect anything less from these protagonists? Truly people to look up to. ANyway, Gainer gos to his room and plays Video Games, but he reveals he found a level that's similar to the Brunhilde situation, and asserts to Ana that he's not going to take the usual lovely Exodus decision making lying down and is going to go and rescue Sara himself, and when he does go Gain is all like "Okay, you're twisting my arm! I guess I better go to keep you out of trouble!" SO While they were Gone and return, Asuham managed to get the controls working enough to use the thing, and decides to use it to attack the others and capture Gain, of course! But not before testing it on his subordinate who decided tot ry and kill Brunhilde and off his commanding officer in one go by having SR lauch missiles at the whole area. However, Sara makes things difficult for him, and eventually triggers the images of Meeyah again, which Asuham comes up witht he clever soltion of just shooting it, which of course sends Brunhilde into a Rage, and Gainer barely gets Sara out in time and Gain has to hold the self-destruct black hole in place for Gainer and Sara to get out, but Gainer saves Gain too, dammit....That was a perfect chance to kill the rear end in a top hat off and the show blew it! Sara walked away from the expirence of being exposed to Brunhilde and Meeyah's emotions upset, but ended up being okay after a while, but happy sunset end I guess..
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Mar 29, 2015 04:53
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it's too bad shrimpy wont watch "fighting anime" because i think his responses to hunter x hunter would be pretty hilarious
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Mar 29, 2015 04:58
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Clawshrimpy posted:I understand that, it's just that "can't keep around those who slow us down" line I think I had the problem with. If you understand what the purpose of the scene was, do you then understand that the "slow us down" line is not in any way a reference to the problems that you take issue with and thus should not be used as reasoning for Gain's morality? Because if you truly understand that scene and only have problem with the wording not the intent or action behind it then you shouldn't really be using it as justification for your dislike of the show's morals because you are admitting that it is not at all referring to the issues that you are constantly bringing up.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:03
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DrOswald posted:It seems to me like you have had some hard times. I get that, I have had hard times too. But the hard times you have hard seem to have stuck in your mind so incredibly hard that whenever you see something that reminds you of those bad times you rip it out of its actual context and stick it in the very specific context of your personal history. And then you judge the situation completely divorced from the actual context, resulting in sweeping and extreme judgement that, to anyone else, seems like irrationality. Because it is. Funny, in Star Trek DS9 Dr. Basshir could talk down O'Brien from killing himself in "Hard Time" without throwing a punch, but by talking to him as a friend Plus, Gurren Lagann paints a rather unrealistic picture of how someone who is atempting suicide would react to being hit and fed a bunch of lovely might makes right platitudes. If someone hit me when I was contemplating/attempting suicide I would be more likely to loving carry it out.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:05
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Guess its pretty relevant that he isn't you and doesn't react to things as you would huh.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:11
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Hbomberguy posted:The key is communication. You have to understand what people are saying and be able to get your own ideas across properly, so disagreement isn't simply a result of failure to talk and is down to genuine differences that can be compared and discussed. This, incidentally, is what most of the 'be a man' lines in Anime mean. It's not a call to be overtly masculine but a call to face your day-to-day problems like an adult. Which is also what the boxing ring scene was about. Speaking of which: for Gainer, that boxing ring was no different from what you're trying to accomplish here in this thread. He couldn't function as he was in the society he found himself in but he wasn't mentally prepared to make any attempt to improve his own condition. Left to his own devices, he would've stagnated mentally and socially and eventually fallen into an ever-worsening spiral of depression and despair: which is something I can relate to and I suspect you can as well. Gainer had completely stopped while the world moved on around him. The boxing ring was Gain's attempt to engage him, if not mentally then physically, to try to get him back in "motion." And to give Gainer a moment to let out his frustration in a way that didn't involve trying to find words to come to terms with himself. This is a six year old girl calling Gainer out for being childish from episode 3:  The boxing match was on episode 4 This thread and the boxing match are the same. You came into this knowing there'd probably be some pain but wanting to better yourself as a poster. Gainer went into that boxing ring knowing there'd probably be some pain but wanting to better himself as a person. Even though he lost that fight Gainer clearly didn't think it was physical abuse because it helped him start to see that the tight, tiny, lonely, empty little world he thought he wanted for himself maybe wasn't really what he wanted. And remember when I asked you to think about themes earlier? This is what I meant. Also from Episode 3:  So, part of the challenge of the Anime you've chosen is that Gainer is very, very much like you. So rather than trying to project yourself onto him (if he's too similar it won't work, because Gainer is miserable at the start and trying to "become" him will make you miserable too), I really suggest taking a half step back and trying to see what lesson the show is trying to teach him. That'll serve you a lot better than trying to decide which character is the most "evil." You don't need to respond to this. Just try to keep the question in mind: What is the theme? What is the show trying to teach me through these characters? You might even find it more enjoyable that way. Don't be Gainer. Don't "be" anyone on the show. Just be yourself, and try to find the threads that tie it all together.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:13
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Clawshrimpy posted:Funny, in Star Trek DS9 Dr. Basshir could talk down O'Brien from killing himself in "Hard Time" without throwing a punch, but by talking to him as a friend
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Mar 29, 2015 05:16
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Allarion posted:Pretty sure Simon told him to face up to his mistakes and move forward from them. Like I know you were already rejecting anything Simon said beforehand, but nothing in that scene was about might makes right. He literally says the stupid Kamina line, and that man's entire philosophy was masculinity above all poo poo.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:22
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Clawshrimpy posted:Plus, Gurren Lagann paints a rather unrealistic picture of how someone who is atempting suicide would react to being hit and fed a bunch of lovely might makes right platitudes. If someone hit me when I was contemplating/attempting suicide I would be more likely to loving carry it out. B) Rossiu's attempted suicide wasn't motivated by depression - he exhibited no signs of it throughout the series, even in that moment -, it was motivated by a feeling of powerlessness, of not being able to do anything to prevent the inevitable. Simon's speech was about how Rossiu wasn't powerless. It was exactly what he needed at that point in time. Clawshrimpy posted:He literally says the stupid Kamina line, and that man's entire philosophy was masculinity above all poo poo.
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Mar 29, 2015 05:23
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Clawshrimpy posted:He literally says the stupid Kamina line, and that man's entire philosophy was masculinity above all poo poo. Honestly, I'm a lot more understanding of the misunderstanding you've made here because there can be a lot of layers between the words said and they're meaning, especially when related to other words and their meaning. EDIT: I feel like getting too deep into how Gurren Lagann relates its themes and how those relate to masculinity would be a gender discussion that ClawShrimpy isn't ready for, so these examples probably won't help the discussion. Twiddy fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 05:54
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Actually you know what, hold up. I just thought about the themes of Gurren Lagann for more than a few seconds and now I'm really really confused and remembering this post.Artum posted:The doublethink going on is frankly mind boggling. Like Simons whole thing is LITERALLY what you were saying with the tram dilemma, its impossible but he's determined to find another way because thats what he feels is right, and yet here you're saying its a "toxic" ideology. Why are you demonizing these guys?
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Mar 29, 2015 06:15
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Twiddy posted:Why are you demonizing these guys? Because they punch other people.
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Mar 29, 2015 06:19
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Clawshrimpy posted:ANyway, Gainer gos to his room and plays Video Games, but he reveals he found a level that's similar to the Brunhilde situation, and asserts to Ana that he's not going to take the usual lovely Exodus decision making lying down and is going to go and rescue Sara himself, and when he does go Gain is all like "Okay, you're twisting my arm! I guess I better go to keep you out of trouble!" This absolutely does not happen. Gain's words on the subject, unprompted by Gainer:  Not only does he want to save Sara, he wants to save the guy who has in the recent past captured him and locked him in that goofy iron mask. You remember him reluctantly being talked into it simply because you dislike the character, not because of his actual behavior. You did the exact same thing back when you claimed Sara had to convince him to go get the medicine for the dying guy when he simply didn't know this extra medicine even existed. This is part of the reason that while most people will agree he isn't some noble, heroic figure, he isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think he is.
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Mar 29, 2015 06:24
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Clawshrimpy posted:Funny, in Star Trek DS9 Dr. Basshir could talk down O'Brien from killing himself in "Hard Time" without throwing a punch, but by talking to him as a friend 1. Dr. Basshir is a genetically modified super human that has intelligence beyond any normal human, is highly eliquent, and has previous experience talking down suicidal people. Simon is a fairly dim guy who's only real skill is punching people. Do you really think Simon could have spoken eloquently enough to talk a man out of suicide? On the other hand, he is more than capable of punching Russio out before he could pull the trigger, guaranteeing success. O'Brien was suffering from extreme depression brought on by 25 years of physical and mental torture. Russio was suffering from a critical mass of self inflicted stress and guilt. O'Brien had come to the decision of ending his life over the course of many days, deciding it was better to die than to live with the pain. He needed to be convinced life was still worth living. Russio was suffering from a temporary attack of panic/insanity after the burden he had placed upon himself finally caused him to crack. He needed to be physically prevented from acting on his temporary bout of insanity. These situations, while superficially similar, are actually very different. 2. Yes, Gurren Lagaan is unrealistic. It is a show about how the power of self confidence can do anything, including create a robot the size of the universe. The show never tries to rise above that extremely simple premise. Why would you think that this part would be realistic when absolutely everything about the show has been unrealistic up to this point? 3. Posting protip: the "funny" and italics you threw in there are bad ideas. The only reason you included those was to show how you considered my points as not even worth serious consideration. That is not something that will ingratiate you to people on these forums. Stopping this sort of aggressive, rude and dismissive posting will go a long way to making you a better poster and someone ADTRW wants around.
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Mar 29, 2015 06:26
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Twiddy posted:Actually you know what, hold up. I just thought about the themes of Gurren Lagann for more than a few seconds and now I'm really really confused and remembering this post. Sure, they might try to do the right thing, but most of the time their methods are highly morally questionable in the way they try to do the right thing.
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Mar 29, 2015 06:33
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As opposed to... Rossiu? The guy who deliberately threw Simon under the bus as a scapegoat?
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Mar 29, 2015 06:40
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Clawshrimpy posted:Sure, they might try to do the right thing, but most of the time their methods are highly morally questionable in the way they try to do the right thing. You've been really down on that punch but it was all Simon could think of doing to stop Rossiu from killing himself and help them save all 6 people from some rather sadistic philosophers.
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Mar 29, 2015 06:41
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Clawshrimpy posted:Sure, they might try to do the right thing, but most of the time their methods are highly morally questionable in the way they try to do the right thing. Shrimpy, considering how back-to-front your conception of morality is I'd say that even if I had not seen Gurren Lagann already I would probably be doubting you. You have a proven track record of having arguments and opinions that really don't mesh with the reality of the shows you're discussing. Again, step back and think: Why do you think that Simon and Kamina are morally questionable? I'm not asking you to justify or argue your position, I'm going back into the epistemology of your argument. Why did you decide to come to the conclusion that they are immoral? Not the examples that you bring up or the evidence you use to justify that assumption but the underlying thought process. Where did you start from and what path did you take to start interpreting the show in this way? And can you understand that you are nearly alone in this opinion? Why do you think your perception is so far askew from the perception of everyone else? What is the underlying reason that your vision of an anime about giant drill robots is so deeply divorced from everyone else's?
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Mar 29, 2015 06:48
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Now I really want to see the Clawshrimpy review of Legend of the Galactic Heroes.
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Mar 29, 2015 07:00
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Polikarpov posted:Now I really want to see the Clawshrimpy review of Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Or Jojo. He'd probably think Zeppeli is a bully and Jonathan a pussy for not killing Dio on sight.
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Mar 29, 2015 07:02
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Omnicrom posted:Shrimpy, considering how back-to-front your conception of morality is I'd say that even if I had not seen Gurren Lagann already I would probably be doubting you. You have a proven track record of having arguments and opinions that really don't mesh with the reality of the shows you're discussing. Especially since continuing to Discuss Gurren Lagann is a huge temptation for me to break the second rule for pretty obvious reasons.
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Mar 29, 2015 07:05
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'Slong as we're listing shows I wonder what he'd think of Tentai Senshi Sunred.
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Mar 29, 2015 07:05
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granted it again was my fault for bringing it up in the first place, which I apoligise for. Kamina and Simon are just an easy thing to reach for when it comes to talking about Gain's actions Plus, since this is a Tomino anime and all, it'd probably be more productive to compare Gain's actions to that of Char or something.
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Mar 29, 2015 07:18
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Clawshrimpy posted:granted it again was my fault for bringing it up in the first place, which I apoligise for. Kamina and Simon are just an easy thing to reach for when it comes to talking about Gain's actions Neither of those are accurate or even relatively close comparisons to what is happening in the show you're watching other than "I dislike them for the same dumb reasons." Also please pay attention to posts like John Carstairs posted:This absolutely does not happen. Gain's words on the subject, unprompted by Gainer: Because you're letting your perceived problems with characters make you willfully dense and ignore actual things that happen and are said in the show.
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Mar 29, 2015 07:32
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Clawshrimpy posted:granted it again was my fault for bringing it up in the first place, which I apoligise for. Kamina and Simon are just an easy thing to reach for when it comes to talking about Gain's actions Why? Why do you go to Kamina and Simon immediately as your standard for protagonists you reflexively hate? What do you see that's alike between late period Simon and Gain? How have two characters of markedly different temperament, personalities, and modus operandi become so interchangeable in your mind? Also Shrimpy? You brought this up. You brought up Gurren Lagann, now run with it. Saying Clawshrimpy posted:I shouldn't even be discussing Gurren Lagann in this thread anyway, it's distracting from the show I'm actually watching for the challenge. is a cop-out. Blaming yourself and begging off a topic of discussion has become a consistent pattern for you. You're running away. More importantly no, it's not a distraction from this challenge because it's right at the heart of things. Again what was the purpose of this thread? Beef was explicit: Beef Waifu posted:3. This thread is to help Shrimpy gain a better understanding of why we are frustrated with him and trying to help him get along with everyone or at least "Agree to disagree." Don't be a dick about it. Your issues with Gurren Lagann tie directly into your bad posting habits. Your hang-up with Simon seems to be the exact same hang-up you have with Gain, and you desperately need to pull those issues out and address them if you really want to change your posting habits..
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Mar 29, 2015 07:49
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John Carstairs posted:This absolutely does not happen. Gain's words on the subject, unprompted by Gainer: I guess I got confused by what the 5 wise men wanted to do. Because usually Exodus is pretty unified in their lovely ideas except for Gainer.
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Mar 29, 2015 09:09
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'Man up' in a lot of these shows is being used in the opposite way from its intended use for comedic purposes. It traditionally means telling someone to conform to a set of assumed standards. Kamina uses the concept as a way of not conforming - rather than 'be like me', he is explicitly saying 'be who you are, even if that isn't me'. Kamina wishes to defy reason itself if it stands in the way of a greater truth. Hitting Simon is violence, but specifically violence in service to breaking free of all the things that hurt Simon in ways he doesn't even recognise. The caves they lived in provided some modicum of comfort and safety but at any moment could kill you. Living in a cave is a metaphor for seclusion, willful ignorance, etc. I know people are all ragging on you as if they know you personally or something, but I do think that siding with the kid who wanted to live in the false safety of the cave all his life is a telling decision.
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Mar 29, 2015 12:24
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Clawshrimpy, reading your arguments is still incredibly frustrating, but personally I still think you're doing better If someone makes a post that you find yourself becoming incoherent when you try to answer it, what you should try to do is first sit back, don't read any more posts in the thread, calm down, and try to answer it as best you can. If you really, absolutely can't respond to a post at all, still acknowledge it. Just say "I'm not sure how to respond to this" or something, let people know that you are reading what they specifically took the time to type out. It'll probably make people way less frustrated with you, and the thread probably won't move so fast, because a lot of the time when the thread is moving fast it's people repeating and rephrasing the same 3 or so arguments that you haven't responded to.
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Mar 29, 2015 15:11
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Ways to improve your posting #1: Stop projecting yourself onto anime characters. Accept them as they are, not as extensions of yourself Clawshrimpy posted:I shouldn't even be discussing Gurren Lagann in this thread anyway, it's distracting from the show I'm actually watching for the challenge. Ways to improve your posting #2: Stop trying to change the subject whenever you get challenged Ways to improve your posting #3: At least attempt to consider the other point of view in a situation you don't like. Consider the context of the situation. Remember that different situations require different approaches Ways to improve your posting #4: You said earlier in the thread that part of your moral code is based on digimon. For god's sake don't actually base your moral values on a kid's show Ways to improve your posting #5: Actually answer questions ways to improve your posting #6: Don't talk about poo poo (e.g. eugenics, bullying) if you don't understand what they mean and can differentiate between when it is bullying and when it is not. Probably everyone itt has been bullied at some point and can differentiate between when something is or isn't bullying. Namtab fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Mar 29, 2015 |
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Mar 29, 2015 15:21
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Following the timeskip Rossiu used questionable methods to conduct a census. He then came up with a plan to save some humans which involved condemning the majority to death. He even had his best friend (Simon) thrown in prison to die with everyone else. After Simon had saved everybody Rossiu realised that what he had been doing was hosed up and wrong. Everyone else (Kitana etc.) was furious at Rossiu and didn't really want to interact with him. Here's the important bit now. Rossiu was going to kill himself out of guilt for what he had done up to that point. Simon forgave Rossiu. Simon went out of his way to stop Rossiu killing himself in the only manner he knew (Simon is not an eloquent man and the show is generally about how actions are stronger than words). This meant that Simon did have to punch Rossiu, but this was out of legitimate concern for Rossiu's wellbeing (akin to a slap to the face for someone who is hysterical, which is a legitimate technique) Simon then encouraged Rossiu to get involved with saving everyone. Simon even acknowledged that Rossiu's plan wasn't completely invalid Yes, Simon struck Rossiu and told him, essentially, to man up. What you consistently and wilfully ignore is the fact that the  context behind that is completely different to people bullying you for being gay or autistic.Simon's was an act of compassion and desperation, whereas your bullies presumably just wanted to hit you for being different. There's a world of difference, and it's time that you stopped being a child and learned about how context is also important in judging morality. Context is the reason why we can have a legal system based around the idea of fair trials and why the concept of "extenuating circumstances" exists. An act that is "bad" or "wrong" or even "evil" does not live in a vacuum, it is informed by the people involved and the specific circumstances at the time. Grow up and accept that.
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Mar 29, 2015 15:40
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Namtab posted:Following the timeskip Rossiu used questionable methods to conduct a census. He then came up with a plan to save some humans which involved condemning the majority to death. He even had his best friend (Simon) thrown in prison to die with everyone else. B-b-b-but he was bullying him!!!
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Mar 29, 2015 15:51
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Namtab posted:Following the timeskip Rossiu used questionable methods to conduct a census. He then came up with a plan to save some humans which involved condemning the majority to death. He even had his best friend (Simon) thrown in prison to die with everyone else. Striking someone, especially someone who is in mental distress, is never an acceptable solution under any context or situation, though. If Simon can't get a point across without using violence and talking down to someone, he needs to learn how to talk to people better.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:00
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Clawshrimpy posted:Striking someone, especially someone who is in mental distress, is never an acceptable solution under any context or situation, though. He can learn that after the guy has shot himself then. It's like you just don't even see like 90% of the words that have been posted.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:04
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Okay now Simon doesn't hit Rossiu and now Rossiu shot himself in the head and his brains are splattered all over the place. It's a good thing Rossiu didn't suffer a minor injury in the process, that would have been the real tragedy.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:06
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Hitting someone to stop them from killing themselves is the most objectively good thing a person can ever do, ever.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:08
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Clawshrimpy posted:Striking someone, especially someone who is in mental distress, is never an acceptable solution under any context or situation, though.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:12
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Clawshrimpy posted:Striking someone, especially someone who is in mental distress, is never an acceptable solution under any context or situation, though. It's a pity the prison he was in didn't have correspondence courses, Simon could've picked up a skillset he's never needed before in time to help. Seriously: In a crisis you use whatever tools you have available to you and you don't have time to be picky. Part of my job is working with the (thankfully rare) suicidal individual and you use any and every method at your disposal to keep them focused on the here-and-now and not pulling that trigger or downing those pills. Simon's options were limited and he absolutely did the right thing with the skills at his disposal at that very moment.
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Mar 29, 2015 16:13
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