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Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer

Junpei posted:

Yeah, being self-centered and unempathetic is kind of her fatal flaw.

It was crushed out of her and it is something she does need to relearn.

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Leoshiki
Jul 19, 2022
You know it just dawn on me that with the right book anything can be made which means there's nothing saying that Roland could use it to make his gear he had in his prime(and Given the hints were getting he might be a color I.E the black silence) again this is not going end well.

GilliamYaeger
Jan 10, 2012

Call Gespenst!

Junpei posted:

Yeah, being self-centered and unempathetic is kind of her fatal flaw.
She really is like a child that hasn't quite worked out the whole empathy thing yet. Which makes sense, considering her upbringing.

Deep Dish Fuckfest
Sep 6, 2006

Advanced
Computer Touching


Toilet Rascal
Hence why she needs more therapy sessions.

Obnoxipus
Apr 4, 2011
the usual binah experience.



yes, i made this same joke in the old drakengard 3 lp. so sue me.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
I cannot take credit for creating this, that goes to a Tumblr user I follow, (observancesys) so please don't put it in the fanart post but I just wanted to share it:

Junpei fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jan 31, 2023

ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013


angela is now familiar enough with roland to be comfortable going completely mask-off in front of him but not familiar enough to realize that he's not going to like it.

Evil Kit
May 29, 2013

I'm viable ladies.

IMO Angela hasn't had a mask in Ruina, just whether or not Angela has hit the threshold to be arsed enough to explain something she hadn't before.

That or she just didn't really have a good way to express it yet, she's certainly gotten more expressive since the start of the game.

silentsnack
Mar 19, 2009

Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current President of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality.

At least she has yet to make the obvious connection and use Light shenanigans to conjure an idea fantasy-world for Roland to retire and live out his days with a fake family.

TeeQueue
Oct 9, 2012

The time has come. Soon, the bell shall ring. A new world will come. Rise, my servants. Rise and serve me. I am death and life. Darkness and light.
Appendix 30: The Red Mist

The Red Mist’s Page posted:

E.G.O. The weapon that corresponds to the mind of its wielder. The sword Carmen gave me was extracted from someone by chance. Giant eyeballs were attached to the sword adorned with crimson chunks of flesh; they watched my every move, almost to the point of making me feel a bit uncomfortable. Wondering if this was a product of some new Singularity, I asked Carmen what the thing was; she only said that I’ll have to get used to it, since there’s little she can do about how it looks. Although it looked a bit creepy, it wasn’t anything unbearable, and Carmen didn’t seem to mind it as long as there were experiments to be performed with it. She added that I have to be careful with it as it was thanks to sheer luck that the “E.G.O” could be extracted at all in its unstable state. I had a plethora of experience handling various workshop products, so I decided to take the sword without much hesitation.

When I first had the sword in my grip, I didn’t feel anything in particular. All I could tell is that it’s just a big, heavy greatsword; nothing out of the ordinary other than its appearance. But when I held the sword a few days later to protect a coworker of mine, I heard a voice. It was the voice of someone desperately yearning for something. Unfortunately, the meaning of that voice was lost on me. Rather… it wasn’t even human speech. An awkward sound mimicking somebody. Noises of teeth grinding, bones crackling, mingling with flesh. Some things collide, fall apart, and mix in irregular patterns as if to mimic the way humans speak. However, that sound was too violent and sharp. The strong obsession of an empty one. Attachment. Void. I’m not sure what word I should use to define this.

One thing I understood was that only I could hear that voice, and that it rang in my head rather than my ears. The stronger and clearer my aim to protect someone became, the louder the noise in my head got. Anxious that my mind might be consumed by the voice if I let it weaken my will, I tried my best to pretend that I didn’t hear it. The eyes on the blade carefully observed me as I fought the voice in my head. The piercing gaze persisted as if to replace me if I faltered even for a second; it made me feel hazy sometimes. The “voice” was only a bunch of grinding noises at the beginning, but it slowly learned to speak over time. Soon enough, it started speaking in a language that I could understand, though it stammered a bit. It takes human hide to protect human flesh. A shell… It kept asking for a shell. I couldn’t stop the voice, so the most I could do was ignore it.

Even though there was danger in using it, its power was formidable; with it, I protected many a person, and cut down many a threat. The voice became stronger and deeper with the more blood the blade drank. One day, it asked a sharp question: “Don’t you desire a human shell as well?” When I think back on it, the question might not have been aimed at me specifically. It would only say whatever it wanted to say. It wouldn’t try to convince or allure me. All it uttered was monologue. Yet, I was frozen stiff when I heard that. It kept saying something. Are our lives really worth the blood I spilt for them? It wasn’t actually capable of forming such detailed sentences, but my head took it that way for some reason… Maybe I was thinking to myself.

I denied its claim at the start. I’d never provoked anyone first. I’d only acted to protect others from an approaching danger. But, I felt a small part of myself waver from what the voice said. What will remain when I keep washing away blood with blood? A bloodstained shell would be all that is left.

I collapsed for a moment; but I didn’t stop thinking. If I broke down, I might be in danger as Carmen warned. Carmen… Right, Carmen would’ve been different. Nothing could possibly beat the glitter in her eyes that shines as she pioneers a new path. Those honest, virtuous eyes… Even when someone jeered at her speech, even when everyone despaired in the face of an obstacle that brought progress to a halt, Carmen never stopped looking after others. She would always take the initiative to lead all of them. If I can protect a person like that, maybe this place will change? Yes. As long as I can protect that one person.

As my thoughts became clearer, I couldn’t just sit down. My body acted before my head could decide what to do. I don’t exactly remember what happened then. When I finally took a grip on my rationality in a vast mindscape and came back to my senses, my body was burning hot. Is this rage? Have I been taken over to the point where I can’t even see ahead? But I felt so calm, refreshed even. My head was kept cool, while my heart leading the body was aflame. It wasn’t long until I felt that something was different. On solid armor, there was a layer of something tough and dense, but it wasn’t fabric… A veil of mist was covering me. Astonished, I moved around and shook my limbs several times, and the veil dissipated soon after.

When Carmen learned of this, she didn’t say much. She didn’t make a big fuss about it or suggest trying something with it right away. She only said that wielding this power is more important than simply manifesting it, so I shouldn’t be lazy… She went back to work after leaving that peculiar piece of advice. Maybe she didn’t want me to feel too much pressure.

As more time passed, I could use the armor for longer, and eventually got to draw out its full power. I had a weapon and armor that resonate with my emotions. Using them, I could protect more people, and I was able to draw forth more durability and strength. The researchers seemed to be struggling to make progress with their work, but it was alright. I believed in them to make it through, and I just had to be quicker to do my job in the meantime. However, not long after, the incident happened all too suddenly. No, maybe it wasn’t so sudden. The sign was there.

Just around this corner, I can hear a child crying; she’s sitting in front of a door. One of the two children Carmen took in died in a failed experiment. Unlike Lisa who was wary and reluctant to open up to us, Enoch showed interest in our research, and volunteered to be a test subject the other day. Enoch’s speech was so concise and on point, everyone was shocked. He wasn’t afraid, and he wasn’t shaking… His voice was unswerving and gentle. Enoch’s eyes weren’t those of a naive little kid. His words and thoughts were surprisingly deep and mature; even I was astonished. I sometimes wondered what made this kid have such thoughts. His eyes seemed to have already seen so much of this world’s despair and misfortune. However, it was still no reason to allow a kid to participate in the experiments. Carmen spent several nights agonizing over the matter.

The experiment was authorized at last, though I didn’t want to know what they thought of it anymore. What were they going to do, holding the hand of that little kid? I had to wonder if we were that desperate. But I shrugged it off. I wasn’t one to stop him from doing what he chose to do.

“You should’ve been the one to die…” The other kid, who was now all alone, mumbled crying. Her words had no weight to it. She probably spouted what she didn’t sincerely mean, because the situation was too much for her.

“Yeah… I— I should have died.” Carmen’s answer, on the other hand, was likely sincere. Everyone stood still. A crack appeared in our minds which we never thought would crumble. Maybe we all expected it to happen deep down.

Carmen’s state worsened with each passing day, like a rusting nail. The sunny eyes of the woman who had brought us together were now cloudy, and she spoke less and less. Her voice was lifeless, and she had gotten so cold; it wouldn’t have come to anyone’s surprise if she died at any moment. She didn’t bother trying to look okay. I think it was better that way. Everyone in the laboratory felt constraint in her presence. They viewed Carmen in different ways. Reproachful looks of those resenting her for bringing them so far, only to let go of her responsibility. Concerned looks of those worried that something might happen to her. And I guess there were some who had no thoughts. The research went on quietly, but not for long.

A few days later, Carmen spilled out all of the guilt within her and plunged into it, never to come back up.

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009
Ah, so the Mimicry sword wasn't from Enoch. I see.

TeeQueue
Oct 9, 2012

The time has come. Soon, the bell shall ring. A new world will come. Rise, my servants. Rise and serve me. I am death and life. Darkness and light.


The thread has spoken. We're doing Gebura's new Abnormality Battle next. Could this mean a Realization is on the horizon..? :ohdear:

MiiNiPaa
Jan 19, 2020

Extracted EGO tries to consume you. You own EGO tries to consume and Distort you. I have a theory on that: there is no your EGO. You are no special snowflake capable of manifesting EGO which can rival one taken from collective conciousness of humanity. However there are hundreds of people with ideals similar to yours, from whom you can borrow power. YOu are not using EGO extracted by someone, no, you are diving into Well for it yourself. That makes your personal EGO the same as extracted, and no less dangerous. You just have more experience with ideas and doubts that particular EGO might tell you.

Another unsubstantiated idea: what if Carmen was an EGO-user and her EGO was Cogito production? That would explain why there would be so many experiments with EGO extraction, and why source of Cogito couldn't be replicated. Usually Wings are afraid that someone will learn about their SIngularity and replicates it. Here we cannot replicate it even as we experiment on it. That would open another interpretation of Carmen suicide: she did it to stop herself from Distorting. After multiple setbacks, Enoch death was the last straw: Carment felt that she is losing her determination and doubts are creeping in. As we saw with Phillip, this is not a good thing. She probably noticed onset of Distortion early, and, not having anything to prevent it, took a bath.

BassMug
Jul 19, 2022

TeeQueue posted:

Appendix 30: The Red Mist

Man… hearing about all this from the perspective of a very true believer is just painful. gently caress.

Lunar Suite
Jun 5, 2011

If you love a flower which happens to be on a star, it is sweet at night to gaze at the sky. All the stars are a riot of flowers.
E.G.O. is, I suppose, a singular thought - a terrible pure note, and if you do not balance it, the combination of many thoughts and feelings that makes you you will be subsumed.

Using E.G.O. means keeping that balance. Distortion is to surrender to the singular <thought/feeling/concept>. You wield it, or it wields you.

MiiNiPaa
Jan 19, 2020

You know what I noticed? RM counter die works during Immobilization. That meant you are not helpless after using Overcharge. And also that you might be able, with enough luck on attack order, to solo Children. Grab Role of the Wolf, Vengeance, Laughter and Absorption, those, I believe, would be the most helpful pages here.

DuoRogue
Jul 19, 2022

My secret? I don't have any bones.

MiiNiPaa posted:

Extracted EGO tries to consume you. You own EGO tries to consume and Distort you. I have a theory on that: there is no your EGO. You are no special snowflake capable of manifesting EGO which can rival one taken from collective conciousness of humanity. However there are hundreds of people with ideals similar to yours, from whom you can borrow power. YOu are not using EGO extracted by someone, no, you are diving into Well for it yourself. That makes your personal EGO the same as extracted, and no less dangerous. You just have more experience with ideas and doubts that particular EGO might tell you.

Another unsubstantiated idea: what if Carmen was an EGO-user and her EGO was Cogito production? That would explain why there would be so many experiments with EGO extraction, and why source of Cogito couldn't be replicated. Usually Wings are afraid that someone will learn about their SIngularity and replicates it. Here we cannot replicate it even as we experiment on it. That would open another interpretation of Carmen suicide: she did it to stop herself from Distorting. After multiple setbacks, Enoch death was the last straw: Carment felt that she is losing her determination and doubts are creeping in. As we saw with Phillip, this is not a good thing. She probably noticed onset of Distortion early, and, not having anything to prevent it, took a bath.

to be fair, the EGO she's talking about here is mimicry, not her cool armor. While both are "her" EGO, mimicry is kind of a dogshit prototype one, not a naturally created one. though the part of wielding only the prototype weapon ego may have been what allowed her to manifest the suit at all, and thus had some effect on it..?

DuoRogue fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Jan 31, 2023

SITB
Nov 3, 2012

MiiNiPaa posted:

Extracted EGO tries to consume you. You own EGO tries to consume and Distort you. I have a theory on that: there is no your EGO. You are no special snowflake capable of manifesting EGO which can rival one taken from collective conciousness of humanity. However there are hundreds of people with ideals similar to yours, from whom you can borrow power. YOu are not using EGO extracted by someone, no, you are diving into Well for it yourself. That makes your personal EGO the same as extracted, and no less dangerous. You just have more experience with ideas and doubts that particular EGO might tell you.

Angela talks about it in the closing scene:

Angela: Yes. I’m finally starting to see it clearly. Originally, the light that radiated during the event known as the ‘White Nights and Dark Days’ should have shone over the City for seven days straight, not three.
Angela: Had that happened, every person in the City would've been able to manifest their own E.G.O, giving them the strength to avoid meaningless deaths regardless of wealth or social status.
Angela: They would’ve earned the power to challenge the world. It may have been possible for some to lose the E.G.O they manifested, but no one would have been taken over by their own E.G.O and become Abnormalities.

Everyone has their own EGO, Ayin touched about this in the day 50 conversation too.

MiiNiPaa posted:

You know what I noticed? RM counter die works during Immobilization. That meant you are not helpless after using Overcharge. And also that you might be able, with enough luck on attack order, to solo Children. Grab Role of the Wolf, Vengeance, Laughter and Absorption, those, I believe, would be the most helpful pages here.

Counter dice used to be incredibly bad and only worked against one dice each (like Yujin's deflect assault passive). Around when the Red Mist reception was released PM buffed it so that counter dice would remain until beaten. This led players do stuff like beat most receptions simply by pressing space every turn and let all the enemies die to her counter dice, so PM nerfed it to to its current form.

(Also, pre-nerf vengeance and absorption weren't capped in strength gain, which led to further degeneracy).

GilliamYaeger
Jan 10, 2012

Call Gespenst!

SITB posted:

Angela talks about it in the closing scene:

Angela: Yes. I’m finally starting to see it clearly. Originally, the light that radiated during the event known as the ‘White Nights and Dark Days’ should have shone over the City for seven days straight, not three.
Angela: Had that happened, every person in the City would've been able to manifest their own E.G.O, giving them the strength to avoid meaningless deaths regardless of wealth or social status.
Angela: They would’ve earned the power to challenge the world. It may have been possible for some to lose the E.G.O they manifested, but no one would have been taken over by their own E.G.O and become Abnormalities.

Everyone has their own EGO, Ayin touched about this in the day 50 conversation too.
It's also interesting how Angela is implying that Distortions and Abnormalities are one and the same.

Lunatic 0verlord
Apr 9, 2022

TeeQueue posted:

Appendix 30: The Red Mist

Going from a story of strengthening to a forgone tragedy.

:cry:

ArchiveLurker
Sep 5, 2009
Fairy is great, but Pillar really cements itself as one of the best pages in the game defensively. I'd call this page and the Queen of Justice fight the two most important places for understanding how ranged dice work, because if you haven't caught on to what exactly ranged dice recycling means you're missing out on an easy way to just shut down big enemy attacks.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
While Binah's Key Page can't be removed from her, you can still attribute passives to her. Given her light restore card is a cost 1, restore 2, Respiration might be a good idea. Since everything of hers is Ranged, Noah's +damage on Ranged attacks (he might not be usable as a keypage but his single passive can still be attributed), as well as Katriel's Empowered First Shot are also good choices.

Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

TeeQueue posted:

The hell are you supposed to be?

Just another trick of the Library, here to put you off.

Huh. Well, appreciate the honesty if nothing else.

*Kali then refuses to think about this anymore*

Ariamaki
Jun 30, 2011

"I'm the most powerful
search engine in the world!"
-- The GoogleProg

Synthbuttrange posted:

*Kali then refuses to think about this anymore*

Come on, would me lie to me?

Arraxis
Jul 10, 2012
That Steve run of the Red Mist was a thing of beauty. Anyway, time to look forward to another Abnormality battle! I don't actually remember this one giving me too many problems compared to some of the other ones on this floor. I'm sure it'll be taken down with elegance, grace, and MURDER

DuoRogue
Jul 19, 2022

My secret? I don't have any bones.

Arraxis posted:

That Steve run of the Red Mist was a thing of beauty. Anyway, time to look forward to another Abnormality battle! I don't actually remember this one giving me too many problems compared to some of the other ones on this floor. I'm sure it'll be taken down with elegance, grace, and MURDER

yeah, soloing kali is more viable than it really should be.

I want to note, actually, tq not instantly picking sword of frost. As mentioned before, The Strongest breaks ties by just hitting every die with that value. So stacking bind on gebura actually makes her get MORE infinity dice, due to her innate 1-7/8 speed.

at base, she has a 1 in 7 chance to get minimum. at one bind, its a 2 in 7, because both 1 and 2 get reduced to 1. at 5 bind, you're more likely than not to just not be able to redirect her at all. at 6/7 bind, she gets full infinities every time. (this is, by the way, why the Cold Sun mod power nulls anyone with 5+ bind, specifically to stop you from strongest cheese)

DuoRogue fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Feb 1, 2023

MiiNiPaa
Jan 19, 2020

GilliamYaeger posted:

Oh look, Yujin's Yesod's floor can do just that - he has an Abonormality page that sets all your speed die to 1. Which means that, with The Strongest equipped, all of your speed dice are automatically set to infinite speed. And while only Gebura can use The Red Mist, there's precisely nothing stopping you from appending The Red Mist to another page and transferring The Strongest over to it.

Yesod is loving broken.
You forgot to mention insane synergy with Clean. Since in LoR infinity equals to 999, and 999 - <anything you can reasonably roll> is no less than 3, you will always get +3 power on offensive dice.


Some fun facts:
Red Mist does not actually runs completely on the same rules as us. For starter, her deck is immense. There are 8 copies of each Upstanding Slash, Level Slash and Spear; 3 copies of GS:V; 3 copies of Focus Spirit; and a single Onrush (which, I suppose is why it is used so rarely), it is probably a bug, and there were supposed to be 4 of them, because right next to it is an empty loop which does nothing 4 times.

GS:H has a cooldown of 2 Scenes after it is used before it returns to RM hand, which probably supposed to emulate EGO recharge mechanics we have to deal with.

ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013


Evil Kit posted:

IMO Angela hasn't had a mask in Ruina, just whether or not Angela has hit the threshold to be arsed enough to explain something she hadn't before.

That or she just didn't really have a good way to express it yet, she's certainly gotten more expressive since the start of the game.

Maybe not a 'mask' but in this convo at least she drops her insistence on how she's justified and instead just says that she doesn't care about the people getting hurt, she doesn't want to care and she resents that things are trying to make her care.

Evil Kit
May 29, 2013

I'm viable ladies.

ZeroCount posted:

Maybe not a 'mask' but in this convo at least she drops her insistence on how she's justified and instead just says that she doesn't care about the people getting hurt, she doesn't want to care and she resents that things are trying to make her care.

I don't really think those two things are exclusive for Angela personally. She can feel justified in what she's doing while also not caring about hurting others. Also being annoyed that things are trying to make her care fits her current personality and how she developed in Lob Corp where caring about what others think and feel hurt her immensely.

The arc of the story as a whole to me so far is Angela being confronted and dealing with her trauma she accumulated over her years in Lob Corp, and in doing so regaining the emotions she lost. Seeing as we haven't been through all the realizations yet, Angela still has a way to go.

If she's justifying anything, it's probably starting to be her actions to herself as she grapples with her re-emerging empathy.

Bit of a ramble there suddenly, I may not be entirely satisfied with the wording or if it conveys what it I'm thinking but hey, :justpost:

EnragedBullfrog
Feb 15, 2014
Also worth noting that this entire game so far has kind of been Angela's gradual evolution into more of a person, and one of the very first things anybody taught her was Roland imparting his "that's that, and this is this" philosophy onto her. Can't be too surprised she's taken it to heart.

E-Tank
Aug 4, 2011
Honestly I think that they're hinting that Roland is going to end up trying to kill Angela, because she was an AI and this is a video game. I wonder how she'll react to the idea of Roland suddenly turning on her, when she's starting to slowly kind of view him as a friend.

Quackles
Aug 11, 2018

Pixels of Light.


E-Tank posted:

I wonder how she'll react to the idea of Roland suddenly turning on her, when she's starting to slowly kind of view him as a friend.

Yeah, well, that’s that and this is this. :v:

SoggyWrist
Nov 11, 2021

Finally got around to playing Library of Ruina myself, caught up with the thread and played ahead a bit. All I can say is I can't wait to see some other fights get clowned on after bashing my subpar decks against them like a caveman and somehow squeezing by. :pseudo:

Also just want to shoutout this thread as being a super helpful resource in card/key page discussion. Love the write ups following each reception on the cards/key pages, they've helped a ton with me experimenting and doing silly things. Love ya guys

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."

E-Tank posted:

Honestly I think that they're hinting that Roland is going to end up trying to kill Angela, because she was an AI and this is a video game. I wonder how she'll react to the idea of Roland suddenly turning on her, when she's starting to slowly kind of view him as a friend.

Let's be honest, Roland is going to shank Angela 3/7's of the way through her moment of triumph. Whatever her end goal ends up being, he's going to try to get some poetic justice.

Junpei
Oct 4, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 11 years!
Two things I'd like to note:

Firstly, that abno quote is another one that like Pinocchio, wasn't in core LobCorp.

Secondly, Binah's Degraded Shockwave is our first 'on-tap' Mass Attack-it's a part of Binah's core deck rather than something you have to wait for a high Emotion Level to use like with both regular EGO and Gebura's GS:H. It does have a high Light Cost (as do a lot of the other 'on tap' Mass Attacks we'll get through SOTC), but that's a new power milestone right there.

Materant
Jul 22, 2010

see, what you don't understand is he now has

THE MANLIEST MUSTACHE

it defies physics


And it's a Mass-Individual, to boot. I adore Mass-Individual cards for their ability to slip around guards and pinpoint strike at problematic dice, and I expect we'll be seeing quite a bit of that whenever Binah comes out to play.

DuoRogue
Jul 19, 2022

My secret? I don't have any bones.

Materant posted:

And it's a Mass-Individual, to boot. I adore Mass-Individual cards for their ability to slip around guards and pinpoint strike at problematic dice, and I expect we'll be seeing quite a bit of that whenever Binah comes out to play.

the fact that the feeble is on the third die, and binah being the patron librarian will always go first, is also useful; it means that if you aim at a 1 or 2 die page, the feeble will ALWAYS land, and you can thus count on it being there for everything else, including other mass attacks from other librarians.

nickfan1
Jul 22, 2022
Random thing I want to bring up regarding the Red Mist pages is that any Red Mist deck that doesn't exclusively use her unique pages bothers me a little. I don't know it just does.

TeeQueue
Oct 9, 2012

The time has come. Soon, the bell shall ring. A new world will come. Rise, my servants. Rise and serve me. I am death and life. Darkness and light.
Okay, thread update time~!

-I'm going on vacation next week, so there will be a pause after the next update.

This turns out to be well-timed, because:

-My laptop keys are starting to crap out on me. I'm going to work on giving it a thorough cleaning over the vacation, which will hopefully address the issue where I'm pushing buttons but it's not properly relaying to the computer. Connections probably just need some alcohol rubbed on them or something. Until then, I've got a second keyboard to plug into the lappy to keep it running, and if push comes to shove... it'd hurt but I can probably eventually swing a replacement for the ol' bean should things come to it.

I'm still not counting this as being hit by the LP curse and you can't make me. :colbert:

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Cooked Auto
Aug 4, 2007

TeeQueue posted:

I'm still not counting this as being hit by the LP curse and you can't make me. :colbert:

Yet.

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