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Cato is probably one of the most insufferable people in western history on a personal level and was one of the original 
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Sep 4, 2014 04:53
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Cato was such an rear end in a top hat that Julius Caesar went out of his way to write a furious reply to Cicero about him which basically boiled down to,"gently caress Cato in his stupid face that loving gently caress."
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Sep 4, 2014 05:24
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my dad posted:Man, that's an good description of Roman society. It's a good topic title.
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Sep 4, 2014 05:32
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Jerusalem posted:"gently caress Cato in his stupid face that loving gently caress." GF, make this the thread title please
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Sep 4, 2014 05:43
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Is it fair to say that a modern-day Cato would be a guy called Thomas Jefferson Jr, who went around in full 18th-century planter regalia and insisted that all political development since 1810 was bunk?
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Sep 4, 2014 05:55
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Amused to Death posted:GF, make this the thread title please I dunno, I'm a fan of "I mean sure some of them had crazy gay orgies but everyone does in history"
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Sep 4, 2014 05:58
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vintagepurple posted:Is it fair to say that a modern-day Cato would be a guy called Thomas Jefferson Jr, who went around in full 18th-century planter regalia and insisted that all political development since 1810 was bunk? Yes. And/or be Justice Scalia Also, I remember in Tom Holland's book there's a line about Cato I really like in a letter Cicero wrote to his friend Atticus "As for our dear friend Cato, he speaks to the Senate as if he were living in Plato's Republic instead of Romulus's shithole"(I imagine the last word is very loosely translated for mass audience) Ainsley McTree posted:I dunno, I'm a fan of "I mean sure some of them had crazy gay orgies but everyone does in history" Good point, tough call. Perhaps the answer is loving Cato's face at a gay orgy?
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Sep 4, 2014 06:04
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I want to go back to Nero and his alleged gooniness. I disagree. First of all, the only thing that Nero was good at, by general consensus, was throwing a party. That shouldn't be discounted. Second, he was apparently popular with the people. There were at least three pseudo-Neros after his death recorded by the historians, and they all gathered some popular support before eating sword sandwiches. I think the question of the gooniest emperor is a good one. Tiberius might be a candidate, poopsocking it away on Capri for 10 years, but I consider him more an elderly shut-in than anything else. Hadrian definitely also had the kawaii-Greek thing going on, but he was too active. Plus historians say he was charming and charismatic in person. I suggest Vitellius: An overblown sense of self-importance, ate four square a day, and his fingers were stained from the honeyed doormice he was most fond of. Very much the Cheetos of the first century. Also, he liked executing astrologers - militant atheism anyone?
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Sep 4, 2014 13:29
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Troubadour posted:I want to go back to Nero and his alleged gooniness. I disagree. First of all, the only thing that Nero was good at, by general consensus, was throwing a party. That shouldn't be discounted. Sperging about which of the semi-obscure (at least not commonly known by name due to modern cultural references; e.g. Caesar, Nero, Augustus, etc.) emperors was in fact the most goony by getting into what could be considered secondary-goon characteristics at best. This is getting into recursive goon territory here.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:13
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Jerusalem posted:"Not foreign invaders, Italy, but your own sons will rape you, a brutal, interminable gang-rape, punishing you, famous country, for all your many depravities, leaving you prostrated, stretched out among the burning ashes." Hot.
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Sep 4, 2014 14:45
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vintagepurple posted:Is it fair to say that a modern-day Cato would be a guy called Thomas Jefferson Jr, who went around in full 18th-century planter regalia and insisted that all political development since 1810 was bunk? Yes, and he would be leading an effort to impeach, try, and execute Obama for Basically what I'm trying to say is that Cato the Younger is Michele Bachmann in a toga. Edit: also, on the subject of Nero's gooniness, don't forget about him forcing the Senate to convene in order to listen to his totally sweet lyre jam sessions. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 15:06
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Jazerus posted:Yes, and he would be leading an effort to impeach, try, and execute Obama for Ehhhh Cato also walked the walk. He was not a hypocrite, and he was often "right". Modern day Cato dresses in late 1700's clothing, wears a tricorn hat, has a wife he never cheats on, goes to church every sunday and is perhaps a minister, never is implicated in any scandal, no matter how trivial, and is descended from a founding father. He is re-elected every year because he is fantastic at being a senator that fights for his constituency, gets elected to the Supreme Court and promotes a moralistic reading of the constitution that pisses off the current right and left because he calls out all of them for being hypocrites. He refuses to say "under God" in the pledge, and denies America is a Christian nation. He also is insanely misogynistic though may not be racist since slavery during the Constitutional Convention was a really heated issue and he may side with the guys that essentially kowtowed to the southern states. He is also completely insufferable due to looking down on drat near everyone.
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Sep 4, 2014 15:34
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Jazerus posted:Edit: also, on the subject of Nero's gooniness, don't forget about him forcing the Senate to convene in order to listen to his totally sweet lyre jam sessions.
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Sep 4, 2014 15:51
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Cyrano4747 posted:Sperging about which of the semi-obscure (at least not commonly known by name due to modern cultural references; e.g. Caesar, Nero, Augustus, etc.) emperors was in fact the most goony by getting into what could be considered secondary-goon characteristics at best. We already know how goony I am by where I am posting.
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Sep 4, 2014 16:28
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Troubadour posted:We already know how goony I am by where I am posting. Grad school?
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Sep 4, 2014 16:31
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The worst kind of mistake
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Sep 4, 2014 17:48
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Ewwwwwww. There but for slightly less dicking around in high school go I... Not that I'm displeased with where I ended up mind. Io Triumphe! Io Triumphe! Haben, swaben, Rebecca le animor, Whoop-te, whoop-te, sheller-de-vere-de, Boom-de, ral-de, I-de, pa Honeka, heneka, wack-a, wack-a Hob, dob, bolde, bara, bolde, bara Con, slomade, hob-dab—rahi. O! C! RAH!
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Sep 4, 2014 18:16
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WoodrowSkillson posted:He also is insanely misogynistic though may not be racist since slavery during the Constitutional Convention was a really heated issue and he may side with the guys that essentially kowtowed to the southern states. He'd probably still be racist. The guys who didn't want slavery still didn't think black people were equal to white people. That was just pretty much par for the course in the 18th century.
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Sep 4, 2014 19:35
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So basically, put Clarence Thomas in Paul Revere's body and we're set?
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Sep 4, 2014 22:45
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Ehhhh Cato also walked the walk. He was not a hypocrite, and he was often "right". Despite refusing bribes offered to him personally, Cato explicitly gave his blessing to using bribery for the Optimates' election campaigns against Caesar, with the justification that the ends justified the means and thus it was a moral act. He was just as much a hypocrite as everybody else, his famously strict morals could be broken when it suited his purposes. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 23:04
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Jerusalem posted:Despite refusing bribes offered to him personally, Cato explicitly gave his blessing to using bribery for the Optimates' election campaigns against Caesar, with the justification that the ends justified the means and thus it was a moral act. Yes. The "I'm the virtuous avatar of your forefathers, you pathetic metrosexual moderns!" image was at least partially political in nature and nothing makes it clearer than his conduct toward Caesar. I have never seen a detailed explanation for Cato's extreme hatred of Caesar beyond power envy, but it certainly was a thing - Cato would compromise almost any of his principles to spite Caesar. Well, I suppose Cato's sister being Caesar's favorite mistress didn't help their relationship much. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 01:14
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Well Casear had also had a reputation as not only a great womaniser (which was probably pretty common) but also as being a pretty untraditional youth, although warning: That's an aspect of his life I got from Carlin's Fall of the Republic podcast series so might be sensationalised for narrative purposes. He also tended towards the Populares and was successful, especially considering how successful he turned out to be it could simply be that Cato saw him as someone whose success would inevitably hurt 'traditional' Roman values. Also I think Cato was definitely willing to compromise his own beliefs but doing so out of a willingness to be pragmatic is different from doing so for the sake of personal benefit. Cato was a massive, massive dick but I think he was sincere in his beliefs regarding the Republic, even if by modern standards those ideas were loving horrible (and by contemporary standards those ideas were a little horrible).
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Sep 5, 2014 01:27
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Also he sold his wife to a rich old lech, then remarried her when the old man died and left her incredibly rich. If Crassus had still been alive he'd have heartily approved.
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Sep 5, 2014 02:57
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Jerusalem posted:Also he sold his wife to a rich old lech, then remarried her when the old man died and left her incredibly rich. Somehow I had never heard of this before, that is an unbelievably pro-move.
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Sep 5, 2014 05:42
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There's seemingly a bit of argument over whether this is a black mark against Cato or not. Some say that divorcing his wife and having her father approve a marriage to drunk old retired courtroom superstar Hortensius made perfect sense since she had already borne him children and thus technically speaking he didn't need her anymore, while Hortensius did since he had no heirs of his own and was a handy guy to have on your good side even though his star was waning. After Hortensius dies, it's not entirely clear if Cato remarried Marcia or just moved her back into his home, where it is further unclear if he took her on as a lover or she was simply there to look after the kids while he and most of the other Optimates were going into exile as Caesar was marching on Rome. I think what it goes to show is that Cato was such a polarising figure that even 2000+ years later people are still arguing whether he was an admirably honest and unbending man, or a hypocrite who talked a big game, poked his nose in other people's affairs, but was more than willing to make excuses and compromises for his own benefit. Caesar had a lot of fun at Cato's expense re: the whole affair, which he must have enjoyed considering he once divorced his own wife while simultaneously proclaiming she was innocent of having an affair, claiming he only divorced her because,"The wife of Caesar must be beyond even suspicion." Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 06:16
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While we're on the subject of ancient roman scandal sheets, what's the deal with Caesar apparently getting buggered a bit while on campaign? I've heard this more than once in a kind of BS'ing at the bar kind of way, but never from someone I really trusted to know their poo poo and I'm too lazy right now to hunt around wikipedia.
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Sep 5, 2014 19:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:While we're on the subject of ancient roman scandal sheets, what's the deal with Caesar apparently getting buggered a bit while on campaign? I've heard this more than once in a kind of BS'ing at the bar kind of way, but never from someone I really trusted to know their poo poo and I'm too lazy right now to hunt around wikipedia. I'm going to assume this is what you're talking about : "Nicomedes IV was restored to his throne in Bithynia in 84 BC. The years that followed were relatively peaceful, though Bithynia came more and more under the control of Rome. In 80 BC, young Gaius Julius Caesar was an ambassador to Nicomedes IV's court. Caesar was sent to raise a fleet using Bithynia's resources, but he dallied so long with the King that a rumor of a homosexual relationship surfaced, leading to the disparaging title, "the Queen of Bithynia", an allegation which was made much use of by Caesar's political enemies later in his life." the source is Suetonius though so if you believe this you also believe Tiberius had babies sucking him off
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Sep 5, 2014 19:51
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Al Harrington posted:the source is Suetonius though so if you believe this you also believe Tiberius had babies sucking him off It was an incredibly popular piece of gossip at the time that chased Caesar for the major part of his life, the truth? who knows, but Caesar was prone to getting attracted to crowns. I suppose Caesar's fellow Romans derived a perverse pleasure from imagining him in Nicomedes bed.
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Sep 5, 2014 20:10
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Angry Lobster posted:I suppose Caesar's fellow Romans derived a perverse pleasure from imagining him in Nicomedes bed. Awww yeah they did. 
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Sep 5, 2014 20:53
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Al Harrington posted:"Nicomedes IV was restored to his throne in Bithynia in 84 BC. The years that followed were relatively peaceful, though Bithynia came more and more under the control of Rome. In 80 BC, young Gaius Julius Caesar was an ambassador to Nicomedes IV's court. Caesar was sent to raise a fleet using Bithynia's resources.. I always thought building an army by having a General "create" the units didn't sound right. I was wrong. "Lets send young Gaius to build an entire fleet using available resources" sounds like something Captain Kirk would do by first looking around and forming some sort of rudimentary lathe.
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Sep 5, 2014 23:42
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Things were cool back in the day. With a bit of charisma you could raise an army and be someone.
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Sep 5, 2014 23:49
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euphronius posted:Things were cool back in the day. With a bit of charisma you could raise an army and be someone. A little bit of charisma, a few friends in high places, and a loan of such proportions that it would make the entire IMF blush.
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Sep 5, 2014 23:50
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Details. Octavian was adopted through a will. That is the dumbest thing ever when you think of it. Adopted by a corpse.
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Sep 5, 2014 23:52
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Regardless Octavian leaned on Agrippa. Dreamy Agrippa. Oh Agrippa.
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Sep 5, 2014 23:53
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Can you blame him? Agrippa 
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Sep 6, 2014 00:06
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Marc Antony: What's so great about this Agrippa anyway?  Later.... Marc Antony: Oh 
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Sep 6, 2014 00:56
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I literally named my second son after Marcus Antonius.
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Sep 6, 2014 01:00
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If your first son wasn't named Marcus Agrippa, you done goofed.
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Sep 6, 2014 01:09
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Augustus and Agrippa might be the most successful bro partnership in history, dudes were awesome.
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Sep 6, 2014 02:53
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PittTheElder posted:If your first son wasn't named Marcus Agrippa, you done goofed. Lol like I would name my son after a loving plebeian.
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Sep 6, 2014 02:55
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