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Dr Pepper posted:Skyward sword doesn't have canned animations though. The blade does move in tune with your hand, try holding the remote at odd angles and you'll see the game match them. All of the actual sword attacks are canned. ImpAtom posted:Yeah, advertising says a lot of stupid poo poo. The in-game instructions and the actual way it plays use that. It's not hard to use at all and works fine. You can even do larger slashes if you want, your hands will just get tired faster. The thing that throws off the controls is going left-right instead of just slashing to the right or going down-up instead of just slashing upwards. It's the switch in direction that you don't need. So again, what's the point? Changing the control scheme to flicks doesn't add anything to the game except points of failure in the input.
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Jun 8, 2013 23:45
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Edoraz posted:Didn't blade mode go into slow-mo? So what people are admitting to is they can't handle real combat.
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Jun 8, 2013 23:50
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Sire Oblivion posted:So again, what's the point? Changing the control scheme to flicks doesn't add anything to the game except points of failure in the input. Because it allows for near-instant attacking in a specific direction even if you're moving or otherwise occupied. Even tying it to left analog + attack button would be more awkward than that because you'd be attacking in the direction you're moving unless you let go of the analog stick and then moved it again while attacking. Right analog ala Rising might work but A: The Wii doesn't have a right analog stick and B: Rising specifically stopped time so you would be able to line up your attacks because that method was kind of awkward. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jun 8, 2013 |
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Jun 8, 2013 23:51
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ImpAtom posted:Because it allows for near-instant attacking in a specific direction even if you're moving or otherwise occupied. As does moving the stick in a certain direction and pressing a button, slashing in Skyward Sword stopped all of your movement so the amount of time it would take to push the joystick in a said direction and press a button wouldn't make a single difference.
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Jun 9, 2013 00:27
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Sire Oblivion posted:As does moving the stick in a certain direction and pressing a button, slashing in Skyward Sword stopped all of your movement so the amount of time it would take to push the joystick in a said direction and press a button wouldn't make a single difference. Yes, it completely would. You would have to move the stick before slashing in another direction from the one you were moving in. It's not a significant investment of time or anything but there is a difference.
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Jun 9, 2013 00:29
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Or just have the sword automatically slash in the direction of the closest enemy while you're running? I dunno, would that gently caress you over?
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Jun 9, 2013 00:33
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Or just have the sword automatically slash in the direction of the closest enemy while you're running? I dunno, would that gently caress you over? It's not a case of targeting, Z-Targeting covers that pretty well on its own. It is that Skyward Sword has enemies who need to be hit with specific directional attacks and it would be more awkward to have to control both with one stick. Even the best theoretical alternate control scheme would be something more akin to Rising or other games which put specific attacks on the right analog. (Which the Wii lacks, natch, and so isn't really an option.) It's not a perfect control scheme by any means, mind you, but it's controllable and predictable when you understand how it works. It's not perfect but I don't think it would be perfect on a regular gamepad either. At least in my time in Skyward Sword, I never had any significant input errors once I started playing it that way. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 00:35
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, it completely would. You would have to move the stick before slashing in another direction from the one you were moving in. It's not a significant investment of time or anything but there is a difference. It doesn't matter because every enemy save for the Stalfos in SS are slow and plodding, Link can't even attack that fast and in the amount of time it takes for his slashing animation to finish so you can attack again anyone could have moved the joystick over an inch for an attack in a different direction.
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Jun 9, 2013 00:42
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Sire Oblivion posted:It doesn't matter because every enemy save for the Stalfos in SS are slow and plodding, Link can't even attack that fast and in the amount of time it takes for his slashing animation to finish so you can attack again anyone could have moved the joystick over an inch for an attack in a different direction. I'm honestly not even sure what your point is at this moment to be honest. You appear to now agree that it is more awkward and your only comment is that it doesn't matter that it is more awkward because the game is paced slow enough. I think honestly that if they tied the melee attack to your movement direction you'd be in here complaining about what a stupid idea that is though and you'd be right to do so. v  v It is the kind of thing where it sounds fine until you imagine how it would actually play and then it would be just awkward as hell. You generally want your movement to be tied primarily to movement, maybe "towards/away from enemy" at best for games like Bayonetta/DMC where you're using fighting game input. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 00:46
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I should make a .gif of that one part in the Matthewmatosis review, where he he attacks a moblin three times, and gets blocked each time. They can only block in one of four directions, but they can instantly switch to another direction mid-swing, quicker than you can react. This even happens with the more deadly ones with stun rods, so it's complete luck whether you can kill the enemy without taking damage. You might as well just swing the remote in any direction, if the game isn't going to let you land a correct hit. As Sire Oblivion said, there's nothing in the motion controls that couldn't be done better and with more accuracy and faster response with a regular controller. Metal Gear Rising's blade mode was extremely enjoyable for me, especially when I was able to perform a Zandatsu within a split-second. It's possible to use blade mode in a way very similar to Skyward Sword, where you can walk about and slash in whichever direction you want, but that's more for messing about with the destructible environment than for actual combat. You don't need motion controls to pull this off. 
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Jun 9, 2013 00:49
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I'm not saying I disagree with you but that gif is a bad example because he obviously pressed the "slash horizontally" button rather than using the stick.
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Jun 9, 2013 00:52
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That loving Sned posted:You don't need motion controls to pull this off. ... Yes? Because all that is is a horizontal slash (the default positioning when you start Blade Mode) during a sequence where time is slowed down dramatically and all the enemies are incapable of moving? What the hell is even your point? They're not even remotely the same thing. The only two significant "you have to hit the enemy in this way" things in MGR are Sundowner and Armstrong and you can go to the MGR thread to see plenty of people discussing the trouble they had with those guys. As far as the Moblin thing, that isn't true. Are you thinking of a different enemy? If you're talking about Technoblins, they follow your sword. The way to beat them without taking damage is to hold you sword in a direction and then quickly flick it in another direction. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 00:52
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haveblue posted:I'm not saying I disagree with you but that gif is a bad example because he obviously pressed the "slash horizontally" button rather than using the stick. Actually, I used the analogue stick. I never use the buttons unless I want to slice an enemy into the most number of parts. ImpAtom posted:... Yes? Because all that is is a horizontal slash (the default positioning when you start Blade Mode) during a sequence where time is slowed down dramatically and all the enemies are incapable of moving? What the hell is even your point? They're not even remotely the same thing. The only two significant "you have to hit the enemy in this way" things in MGR are Sundowner and Armstrong and you can go to the MGR thread to see plenty of people discussing the trouble they had with those guys. The default position doesn't matter, since you need to move the analogue stick to make a slash anyway. Also, the problems people had stemmed from either using the buttons for blade mode exclusively, or thought you needed to follow through with your slash, when just releasing the analogue stick is enough. Shame this game doesn't have Fi to endlessly explain this sort of thing. E: There are certain enemies in the game that have left arms you can collect. They need to be chopped off while they're still alive, and cutting them incorrectly means you can't recover them. It is also possible to do a no-kill run, by disabling enemies by incapacitating them, such as cutting off their legs. They'll activate stealth camo, and effectively be removed from the battlefield. That Fucking Sned fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 01:02
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I think the motion controls were serviceable, but the concept was pretty boring. All they did was ask a certain direction from you if you wanted to do anything to the enemy at all. Pretty much quicktime events with a little more effort. That's not swordfighting. You can't bat a weapon away, thrust to push someone back, do a lunge if you're swinging overhead, swipe their legs away, disable certain bodyparts... What's the point of a freeform sword system if you can only do one valid thing anyway? Simon Says indeed.
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Jun 9, 2013 01:02
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That loving Sned posted:The default position doesn't matter, since you need to move the analogue stick to make a slash anyway. Also, the problems people had stemmed from either using the buttons for blade mode exclusively, or thought you needed to follow through with your slash, when just releasing the analogue stick is enough. Shame this game doesn't have Fi to endlessly explain this sort of thing. No, a large portion of people just had problems because they never actually used the mechanics before Armstrong. (Thanks to Sundowner being a ridiculously easy boss.) A good portion of people ignore mechanics in all games and then blame the game for it. See also that thing about the goblin-type monsters and how even whoever that reviewer is completely missed how to fight them. That loving Sned posted:E: There are certain enemies in the game that have left arms you can collect. They need to be chopped off while they're still alive, and cutting them incorrectly means you can't recover them. It is also possible to do a no-kill run, by disabling enemies by incapacitating them, such as cutting off their legs. They'll activate stealth camo, and effectively be removed from the battlefield. Yes, I know, I've played the game. The left-arm cutting is simple enough most players do it by accident while cutting up enemies like crazy. Accidentally destroying the arm is honestly harder than not doing so. Getting good ranks while still disabling foes tends to involve the wooden sword, not cutting off their legs. I love MGR but while the blade mode is cool I wouldn't want it to be the only combat system. Moving around in it is awkward as hell which is why the game never requires it from you even in the few boss fights that ask for any form of precision cutting. MGR is a way better game than Skyward Sword for a lot of other reasons. Believe me, I'm not arguing that Skyward Sword is the best Zelda. I got a complaint list a mile long. It's just that the controls aren't really that bad as long as you understand how they work. v v
ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 01:11
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ImpAtom posted:I'm honestly not even sure what your point is at this moment to be honest. You appear to now agree that it is more awkward and your only comment is that it doesn't matter that it is more awkward because the game is paced slow enough. I think honestly that if they tied the melee attack to your movement direction you'd be in here complaining about what a stupid idea that is though and you'd be right to do so. v It's not awkward as all hell because that's how all other 3D Zelda's worked until the motion bullshit only to a lesser extent. Right+B in MM and OoT yielded a slash towards the right, Left+B a slash to the left, Forward+B was the stab combo. I also believe you got a different slash for diagonals. Hell, Monster Hunter works on the same principle and it's controls are way more complex than any 3D Zelda. My point is the controls would have worked just as well on standard controls and user mistakes would be the only point of error and that flicking the wiimote around adds nothing to the experience.
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Jun 9, 2013 01:27
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Except it adds a ton to the experience and you're a ton more flexible with the remote.
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Jun 9, 2013 01:28
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Torquemadras posted:I think the motion controls were serviceable, but the concept was pretty boring. All they did was ask a certain direction from you if you wanted to do anything to the enemy at all. This is pretty much my main complaint as well. Whenever I could get sword combat to work, it just wasn't that interesting. So basically, for me, Skyward Sword had controls that didn't always work right, and when they did it wasn't significantly better than what came before anyway. It's all moot anyway, cause frankly I felt SS had much bigger issues in regards to exploration and puzzles than it did combat. And Fi. Holy hell Fi. I can see ever other problem in SS being fixed for the next Zelda on the WiiU, but I'm extremely concerned that any future guides we get will be Fi 2.0. All other issues pale in comparison to the idea that Nintendo thinks they didn't take Fi's guidance far enough...
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Jun 9, 2013 01:29
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The controls in Skyward Sword were awesome, and helped make it the 2nd best Zelda game (behind Majora's Mask)  Trying to get Zelda fans to agree on anything about Zelda games is pretty tough though.
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Jun 9, 2013 01:31
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Sire Oblivion posted:It's not awkward as all hell because that's how all other 3D Zelda's worked until the motion bullshit only to a lesser extent. Right+B in MM and OoT yielded a slash towards the right, Left+B a slash to the left, Forward+B was the stab combo. I also believe you got a different slash for diagonals. Hell, Monster Hunter works on the same principle and it's controls are way more complex than any 3D Zelda. It worked that way because the earlier games literally never mattered aside from extremely niche cases like "slash the Deku Baba sideways to get a stick." You don't need any precision, even the limited precision that SS asks. You could just slash wildly and do fine. Skyward Sword differs from left-to-right slash and right-to-left slash. Things like the goblin enemies require you to hold the sword in one way and attack in another. You could change the game to be different and have the old Zelda style works but that's something entirely different from "you could do it with a controller." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 01:52
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Here's some stuff about A Link To The Past 2 Major stuff: Dark World is back, nothing in the game will require the 3D effects, and it'll run at 60 FPS (if that's important).
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Jun 9, 2013 01:59
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ImpAtom posted:Skyward Sword differs from left-to-right slash and right-to-left slash. Things like the goblin enemies require you to hold the sword in one way and attack in another. You can differentiate left to right and right to left swings with a standard control scheme. You're right with the "follow the sword" type enemy in Skyward Sword, unless you a button that put Link into some "wave sword mode" which would be stupid but I can do without a gimmicky enemy to have a good control scheme.
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Jun 9, 2013 04:55
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ImpAtom posted:As far as the Moblin thing, that isn't true. Are you thinking of a different enemy? If you're talking about Technoblins, they follow your sword. The way to beat them without taking damage is to hold you sword in a direction and then quickly flick it in another direction. Personally, I find that type of enemy annoying as I had to move the Wiimote very slowly to stop my Wii from registering my movement as an attack and getting electrocuted (or blocked, by like every other enemy). I understand the concept behind how to attack the enemy type, but frankly, it's a hell of a lot easier to wait to stun them by parrying their attack or spamming the spin attack. Too many of the SS enemies revolve around that, waiting for you to reposition to a specific direction of a sword cut. It's real neat that I can swing diagonal-up-right, but it breaks the flow to have a Stalfos waiting like 15 seconds to attack me while I line up a swing. The one thing I think that video review posted earlier nailed is the over-reliance on the sword for... everything. It's the beginning and end of pretty much every puzzle and the way to beat every enemy. Like, okay, I get it Nintendo, 1:1 motion is real neat, now how about we use some new poo poo? TwoPair fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jun 10, 2013 |
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Jun 10, 2013 07:11
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Edit: This is the wrong thread.
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Jun 11, 2013 01:14
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Oh wow I had no idea it was possible to do sequence breaking in Oracle of Seasons. I somehow managed to get myself to Dungeon 5 before even finding Dungeon 4 and I'm not entirely sure how. I don't know if I'll actually be able to beat it without later items though.
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Jun 11, 2013 17:09
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Stop rehashing the same year-old arguments and watch this trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAluniNRibs
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Jun 11, 2013 17:16
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That stamina meter drains really quick. An arrow was over 1/3. How am I supposrt to spray down the forces of evil with a shower of unyielding death?
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Jun 11, 2013 17:22
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...I should get a 3DS soon. 
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Jun 11, 2013 17:32
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:...I should get a 3DS soon. You can watch the trailers on your 3ds in the full 3d the game will be. It looks very nice with multilevel enviroments.
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Jun 11, 2013 17:36
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ImpAtom posted:It's not a perfect control scheme by any means, mind you, but it's controllable and predictable when you understand how it works. Unless the hardware or setup or lighting levels or any other factors outside of your control decide to gently caress you over for no reason. Even under ideal conditions, there's still going to be unavoidable mis-swings that would never ever happen if you were using a controller. Boo to the Motion+ forever.
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Jun 11, 2013 17:45
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Lurdiak posted:Unless the hardware or setup or lighting levels or any other factors outside of your control decide to gently caress you over for no reason. Even under ideal conditions, there's still going to be unavoidable mis-swings that would never ever happen if you were using a controller. Err, lightning levels and hardware setup literally can't screw up the sword thing. It can occasionally mess with the pointer or other mechanics in certain circumstances but the way the sword works you can basically swing it in another room and it'll register the same. It's literally just detecting the motion of your controller, aside from the moments where you have to wave the sword around to distract eyes or whatever. If you're screwing up that part of the controls, it's not the Wii's fault. The sensor bar isn't used for that particular mechanic. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 17:48
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ImpAtom posted:Err, lightning levels and hardware setup literally can't screw up the sword thing. It can occasionally mess with the pointer or other mechanics in certain circumstances but the way the sword works you can basically swing it in another room and it'll register the same. It's literally just detecting the motion of your controller, aside from the moments where you have to wave the sword around to distract eyes or whatever. If you're screwing up that part of the controls, it's not the Wii's fault. The sensor bar isn't used for that particular mechanic. My point still stands that the mechanic isn't reliable for all players, and I still completely refuse to accept the narrative that people are just "playing it wrong". It doesn't always work for everyone, that is a gigantic problem.
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Jun 11, 2013 17:54
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Lurdiak posted:My point still stands that the mechanic isn't reliable for all players, and I still completely refuse to accept the narrative that people are just "playing it wrong". It doesn't always work for everyone, that is a gigantic problem. That's fine, but you're pretty much going to have to say the same for a lot of excellent games on controllers as well. Fighting games, for example, are a big one here where learning execution is considered part of learning to play the game and it's very possible to drop moves or combos through mis-executions. Hell, a lot of fighting game fans stand by the idea that fighting games are almost unplayable on a controller compared to a stick. The same applies to something like Bayonetta or DMC which use fighting-game style inputs which require knowledge to execute perfectly. Skyward Sword isn't on the same level but the fact that someone can screw up something doesn't make it inherently bad. There's an excellent Resident Evil 6 LP going on at the moment which explains how all the mechanics work pretty much perfectly once you understand them, they're just poorly explained. I've seen people on these forums talk about how Arkham Asylum is awful because all you have to do is mash counter over and over and over and never touch another button. A game can suck really hard if you play it wrong or be really fun if you understand how it works. When you understand how the sword mechanic works, it works. The problem is that Nintendo did a poor job of teaching how it works and seems to have set unreasonable expectations that actively work against the mechanics. That is a problem, but it isn't a problem with the actual mechanic. It's a fuckup on Nintendo's part but it is one that can be worked around with information. It isn't a genius super-mechanic but it is a case where it is being played wrong and that causes more problems than already exist. SS could be more intuitive, but we can't go back in time and change it, so the best we can do is explain "they explained this poo poo poorly, here is how it works." In this case people are literally playing it wrong. They're trying to play it in a way it doesn't recognize. Explaining how to correctly execute things isn't a narrative. It's just explaining how the game works. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jun 11, 2013 |
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Jun 11, 2013 17:56
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Lurdiak posted:My point still stands that the mechanic isn't reliable for all players, and I still completely refuse to accept the narrative that people are just "playing it wrong". It doesn't always work for everyone, that is a gigantic problem. The problem is people always complain about light sources and other things that aren't the problem. Thats going to be corrected because its a myth that comes up every time. The controls are not intuitive for everyone, but there is a right way to do it. Pointing that out is not the same as saying "you're doing it wrong"  If someone were trying to swing left on an analog stick and to do it they first jerked the stick right then left and complained that link swung right, its because they were literally doing it wrong. Its the same thing. Explaining that isn't spouting a narrative, its just trying to explain how it works.
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Jun 11, 2013 18:08
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Everyone shut up about motion controls and let's all gawk at how pretty Wind Waker still looks.  First the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkVt1s_ZFbw Then the director interview in which the most important question is carefully avoided: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZRTakeKTbw
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Jun 12, 2013 02:47
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Too much god drat bloom, the sky is glowing. I'm really digging the Tingle Bottle idea (and I'll be sending out plenty of Dickbutts) and being able to sail faster.
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Jun 12, 2013 03:52
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Sail faster? gently caress off, real Wind Wakers stow the sail and just hammer down on the R button to get where they're going.
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Jun 12, 2013 04:16
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SatansBestBuddy posted:Everyone shut up about motion controls and let's all gawk at how pretty Wind Waker still looks. Did they use enough bloom? The Tingle Tuner was kinda useless, but I think I'm going to miss it anyway. All the comments he had about things and the pointless easter eggs you could find were fun. The Tingle Bottle is a clever replacement but I suspect you'll encounter large quantities of dick drawings washed up on beaches as you play.
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Jun 12, 2013 04:20
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What is the important question and what was the non-answer given?
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Jun 12, 2013 04:21
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haveblue posted:What is the important question and what was the non-answer given? I think he meant the question about the triforce hunt and him saying that yes it slowed down the game and fans would be excited about it now or something. He kind of rambled.
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Jun 12, 2013 04:37
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