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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It's this. These updates should be free or available for a small fee. $1,000+ to unlock the physical potential of a vehicle the customer supposedly already owns is some dystopian poo poo. I’d agree with you if the paywall was for battery capacity or heated seats or something like that. But for a few herspers to unlock I think it’s fine.
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Dec 5, 2021 20:43
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Ola posted:Congrats! Post a pic of it. And your doge wallet. I got a model 3 long range (seen below with long mode activated) and I'm very happy with it so far. Still a little iffy about having all the controls on a tablet, but that's more me being slow to adjust as opposed to a serious misgiving. Also lol if you think I would invest in any cryptocurrency other than Whoppercoin 
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Dec 5, 2021 20:54
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* a few herspers in a car that's already got a lot for its class. The upgrade is only for the dual motor edition, so you're already firmly in the area of having way more hp than most people realistically need. At the same time, I agree that philosophically this is the kind of update that should be free. But thinking of it as "this is the software that goes into next year's model, you're paying extra to get that software early"... it's not great but I'm okay with it. Maybe if it became free after 6 months or whatever
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Dec 5, 2021 21:00
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gotta say the software situation on the Mach-E is pretty terrible. I’ve had a software update fail to install like twice now, there doesn’t seem to be a way to force it to update, and there’s no indication as to why it failed. It also seems there’s a lot of updates you can only get at the dealer. I suspect some of my problems come from the fact that cell service in my garage sucks, but it’s still not a great experience
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Dec 5, 2021 21:19
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It's this. These updates should be free or available for a small fee. $1,000+ to unlock the physical potential of a vehicle the customer supposedly already owns is some dystopian poo poo. I don’t entirely disagree with you, but it also gets into a question of value and what you pay for vs what was sold to you vs the cost of sourcing and manufacturing. It’s much cheaper and better for QC for Tesla to produce one motor and one driveline, and then artificially gatekeep different performance tiers, than it is for there to be four different production lines for four different motors with four different performance characteristics, which is what you might do with an ICE car where there’s a 4cyl trim, 8cyl, hybrid, etc. I’m reminded of a conversation that happened in the SH/SC Intel thread a few weeks back regarding the sale of core-deactivated CPUs- where Intel fabs x-amount of 8-core chips that would cost y-amount of money at retail, but then 30% of them are sold as 4 core chips at 50% of the cost and another 40% are sold as 6-core chips and so on. Now you might say that the most correct action would be to just make the car as performant as it can be as cheaply as possible. While that can be true a lot of the time, a company like Tesla doesn’t really have the luxury to play fast and loose with revenue. They can make x-number of cars per year and they have to make y-amount of revenue. If the cars are all priced too high on average then they won’t sell enough. If you’re pricing them all too low then you can sell a ton but not make enough return. To return to the CPU example, if you bought and paid for a four-core chip, but secretly inside it’s “actually” an eight-core chip are you really being swindled by Intel? Are you entitled to those four other cores? What this tiering allows Tesla to do is to create a certain percentage of more budget-priced cars, a certain percentage of mid-priced cars, and so on from the most affordable production process they can make. It feels shady to create a pay-go option, but it does give customers the flexibility/availability to upgrade their car in the future if they want to. You’re sure as poo poo not upgrading an Ecoboost Mustang to a GT after the fact.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:36
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QuarkJets posted:* a few herspers in a car that's already got a lot for its class. The upgrade is only for the dual motor edition, so you're already firmly in the area of having way more hp than most people realistically need. If they do make it free after 6 months or even a year I would be pretty ok with that. We'll see what happens but I doubt they do it given the $1k price tag.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:36
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Prof. Crocodile posted:I got a model 3 long range (seen below with long mode activated) and I'm very happy with it so far. Still a little iffy about having all the controls on a tablet, but that's more me being slow to adjust as opposed to a serious misgiving. The red paint/silver wheels/chrome delete combo looks excellent.
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Dec 5, 2021 21:58
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This sort of poo poo is super loving common in the tech industry with firewalls, load balancers, switches, VPN gateways, AAA servers and the like. Has been for over 10 years. You don't need to know what those things are. Just know that big companies make one hardware platform and then sell several versions of it with different capabilities ranging from cheap entry level to crazy powerful enterprise grade. The only difference between the tiers is the activation key entered into the software. This lets you buy the cheap version now and then upgrade to the super duper version later if you need to with very little trouble. Or in many cases, buy something in between, it can very granular. TBH ordering Cisco licenses for certain things is a bit like ordering toppings on a pizza. One half pepperoni, one half olives, both sides pineapple and extra cheese, and onions in the top right corner, or whatever weirdness fits your needs. I get the initial response of disgust when you realize that your $500 thingy is actually a $20,000 thingy with most of the features disabled but it really does make everything cheaper and easier in the long run. The manufacturer gets to just make one thing and get really good at making that one thing and you (or the local mechanic) only need to learn how to operate and maintain one thing. I am not surprised at all to see Tesla doing this. Its an old page right out of the tech/IT world marketing playbook. Antillie fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 5, 2021 |
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Dec 5, 2021 22:08
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Ok Comboomer posted:I don’t entirely disagree with you, but it also gets into a question of value and what you pay for vs what was sold to you vs the cost of sourcing and manufacturing. Important thing to keep in mind about the Intel CPU example though: CPUs go through a binning process, it is probable that one or more of the disabled cores in the 4 and 6 core variatns actually have defects that prevent them from working, or even if the whole chip is healthy without defects it may still have some other quality limitation that prevents it from being used as a higher end chip (like it has too much leakage, or requires too much voltage, or it just can't clock that fast). I believe it has been confirmed that the motors that go into the Tesla Performance variants are manufactured off the same line as the ones that go in to every other build, but they are similarly binned so even though it is the same motor design the "better" ones are given a different part number and reserved for the Performance version.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:17
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Maybe it's just because I'm still driving a 2008 Toyota Yaris, but I do not expect free software-driven performance upgrades for a car I've already bought and their existence doesn't effect my view at all of a car I've chosen to buy.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:20
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Ok Comboomer posted:I don’t entirely disagree with you, but it also gets into a question of value and what you pay for vs what was sold to you vs the cost of sourcing and manufacturing. You can write all these words and not understand why it's an exploitative practice and incredibly hostile to consumers.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:22
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People seem to forget that practically every VAG diesel was an ECU flash away from vastly increased power and torque. You couldn't do it at the dealer, you had to pay a third party to unlock that upgrade. But the potential was there in the base car that VW or Audi sold you. And people have been happy, even boastful of paying thousands of dollars to unlock that extra power of their Audi. People would even specifically buy an Audi over competitors because they knew that increased performance was just a software upgrade away. The precedent has been around in ICE cars for decades. With EVs it seems, it's just the manufacturers realizing they're leaving money on the table for someone else to collect, so why not sell that upgrade themselves.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:29
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Prof. Crocodile posted:I got a model 3 long range (seen below with long mode activated) and I'm very happy with it so far. Still a little iffy about having all the controls on a tablet, but that's more me being slow to adjust as opposed to a serious misgiving. Beautiful. Congratulations!
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Dec 5, 2021 22:32
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Ok Comboomer posted:To return to the CPU example, if you bought and paid for a four-core chip, but secretly inside it’s “actually” an eight-core chip are you really being swindled by Intel? Are you entitled to those four other cores? If the limitation is artificial then the manufacturer is just stealing from the consumer. Period. But in the CPU world it's a little more complicated than that - manufacturing defects sometimes result in a chip that only has 6 or 7 working[ cores, which you then sell as a 6-core CPU. It doesn't do anyone any good to sell those chips as 8-core even if that's how many cores are physically present. Some additional number of perfectly fine 8-core chips are then sold as 6-core chips to meet demand, and that's a perverse situation. For electric vehicles, we're talking about a few different things: 1) Selling the same car at different price points with software artificially reducing performance at the lower prices. That's a hosed situation - it boils down to a deceptive practice no matter how you look at it. 2) Selling the same car with different software releases determining price. Think of the differences between Microsoft Paint and Photoshop. If the manufacturer develops their own software that makes the battery charge more efficiently, but also will sell you 3rd party or older software that isn't as efficient, then it's fine for them to charge a little more for their newest, superior software. The key difference with 1) is that this is a *real* limitation of the software being shipped, not an artificial one. 3) Selling a car with some specified performance, but charging an optional fee later after the software has been further improved. The software was going to be improved either way, but normally it'd just get rolled into next year's edition of the car. Offering the newer software early for some nominal fee is defensible because you're getting some of the enhanced capabilities of next year's model. Having to buy new major releases of software is pretty normal, and that's what this would fall under.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:37
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Liquid Communism posted:You can write all these words and not understand why it's an exploitative practice and incredibly hostile to consumers. it’s also what enables companies to sell products that “should” cost a given amount at a flat scale to the marketplaces that exist and not the ones that they wish existed. I may not have 1000 people willing to pay $60k for my awesome car. But maybe I have 300 people willing to pay $80k for my awesome car with some minor upgrades, 300 people willing to pay $60k for the awesome car as-is, and 400 people willing to pay $45k for a less performant version.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:39
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Finger Prince posted:People seem to forget that practically every VAG diesel was an ECU flash away from vastly increased power and torque. You couldn't do it at the dealer, you had to pay a third party to unlock that upgrade. But the potential was there in the base car that VW or Audi sold you. And people have been happy, even boastful of paying thousands of dollars to unlock that extra power of their Audi. People would even specifically buy an Audi over competitors because they knew that increased performance was just a software upgrade away. The precedent has been around in ICE cars for decades. With EVs it seems, it's just the manufacturers realizing they're leaving money on the table for someone else to collect, so why not sell that upgrade themselves. ECU tuning is common for a lot of models. I suppose the big difference is it’s a first vs third party offering them in this case. But you also get to keep your warranty and I could see the argument for the charge being to defray future potential warranty issues due to increased wear on the battery and motors. I don’t generally like software locked features that require money to unlock but I’m not sure that “more power” is actually “free” to the manufacturer to provide if it increases their warranty liability.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:41
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Finger Prince posted:People seem to forget that practically every VAG diesel was an ECU flash away from vastly increased power and torque. You couldn't do it at the dealer, you had to pay a third party to unlock that upgrade. But the potential was there in the base car that VW or Audi sold you. And people have been happy, even boastful of paying thousands of dollars to unlock that extra power of their Audi. People would even specifically buy an Audi over competitors because they knew that increased performance was just a software upgrade away. The precedent has been around in ICE cars for decades. With EVs it seems, it's just the manufacturers realizing they're leaving money on the table for someone else to collect, so why not sell that upgrade themselves. ECU reflashing for more performance is a very different circumstance as OEM's have more than just performance to keep in mind when releasing cars. Reflashing also has a non zero chance of melting an engine as a lot of Accessport owners in Subarus wont admit to, but instead squeal about ringlands while quietly reverting the flash back to standard and wondering why the 87 octane fuel sent the knock sensors into overdrive before the engine detonated.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:48
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I'm perfectly fine with charging for software upgrades for more power because people who care about that on a daily driver deserve to be parted with their money. Extending it to much more, you quickly remove the "OTA updates are great because the car just gets better, and a 5 year old car is just as good as a new" argument when you have to pay for all the updates. That being said all the hardware stuff is a false equivalence--that poo poo is all there for the convenience of the manufacturer and they've already determined their price discrimination scheme ahead of time. Tesla used to do exactly that with a software-unlocked battery capacity, but they no longer do so because that's dumb. Though I guess maybe it might come back in canada now that their prices are once again over the subsidy price caps.
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Dec 5, 2021 22:48
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Ok Comboomer posted:it’s also what enables companies to sell products that “should” cost a given amount at a flat scale to the marketplaces that exist and not the ones that they wish existed. I have a restaurant. My sandwiches cost $10, but I spit in every one. I also sell a $20 "high performance sandwich" where the only difference is that I don't spit in it. This is fine, right? Or at least your argument says that it's fine. e: Specifically, I'm talking about situations where the "performance" upgrade just flips a bit somewhere; not OTA updates that produce real improvements that did not exist before QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 5, 2021 |
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Dec 5, 2021 22:56
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QuarkJets posted:I have a restaurant. My sandwiches cost $10, but I spit in every one. I also sell a $20 "high performance sandwich" where the only difference is that I don't spit in it. I’m a sexworker. You pay me for a handjob. I could give you anal, I’m perfectly physically capable of doing it, but you didn’t pay for that. You paid for a handjob.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:01
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also lmao at the bad-faith horseshit analogy of “a sandwich with spit in it” vs “a sandwich with no spit in it” and you’re comparing it to buying a car that could either do 0-60 in 4 seconds or 3.5 seconds
trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 5, 2021 |
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Dec 5, 2021 23:03
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QuarkJets posted:e: Specifically, I'm talking about situations where the "performance" upgrade just flips a bit somewhere; not OTA updates that produce real improvements that did not exist before At the end of the day, most/all optional/paid software upgrades will "just flip a bit" somewhere. There are tons of advantages for having all of your users on the same bits. Hopefully these are obvious so I don't have to explain them, but if you want to have updates that are optional/paid, you aren't going to fork your code for every one of these, but instead just have some "bit" that just says "this user is allowed this feature/update" and if not, they just don't get that feature/update. I mean I guess they could have pluggable software modules that only is downloaded to the device if they pay for it, but I don't think that's the most common practice. Besides what else is software than just flipping bits?
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Dec 5, 2021 23:21
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Liquid Communism posted:You can write all these words and not understand why it's an exploitative practice and incredibly hostile to consumers. You saying this does not make it true. Personally I feel its a great addition to convenience . Maybe I don't care about the extra 0.5 off the 0-60 time so I don't buy the unlock. But maybe the guy I want to sell my car to 3 years from now does, and he will then have that option, making my car more attractive for him. I can see myself expressly avoiding car makers that don't offer software unlocks for their one size fits all hardware. Antillie fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 5, 2021 |
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Dec 5, 2021 23:28
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Ok Comboomer posted:also lmao at the bad-faith horseshit analogy of “a sandwich with spit in it” vs “a sandwich with no spit in it” and you’re comparing it to buying a car that could either do 0-60 in 4 seconds or 3.5 seconds The point is that it's a problem when those differences are imaginary, when both models ship with all of the exact same capabilities aside from 1 bit in software that determines whether you get better performance. You may not personally have a problem with getting conned, but you're still getting conned in that situation.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:28
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gwrtheyrn posted:At the end of the day, most/all optional/paid software upgrades will "just flip a bit" somewhere. There are tons of advantages for having all of your users on the same bits. Hopefully these are obvious so I don't have to explain them, but if you want to have updates that are optional/paid, you aren't going to fork your code for every one of these, but instead just have some "bit" that just says "this user is allowed this feature/update" and if not, they just don't get that feature/update. I mean I guess they could have pluggable software modules that only is downloaded to the device if they pay for it, but I don't think that's the most common practice. I'm very familiar with releasing software that has tiers of features. That's related but a little different; we're talking about artificial limitations imposed on hardware, like if you had to buy a "multi-core" upgrade to Windows in order to use more than one CPU core.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:36
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QuarkJets posted:I'm very familiar with releasing software that has tiers of features. That's related but a little different; we're talking about artificial limitations imposed on hardware, like if you had to buy a "multi-core" upgrade to Windows in order to use more than one CPU core. As far as I can tell, this is not at all related to what originally started this entirely dumb conversation.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:43
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QuarkJets posted:I'm very familiar with releasing software that has tiers of features. That's related but a little different; we're talking about artificial limitations imposed on hardware, like if you had to buy a "multi-core" upgrade to Windows in order to use more than one CPU core. The IT market has been doing exactly this for over 10 years. You just don't see it in the consumer space much. If you really don't like it then either don't buy the car or void your warranty and unlock the capabilities yourself (if its possible, it may not be).
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Dec 5, 2021 23:45
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YOU WOULDN’T DOWNLOAD A CAR! Is now false 
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Dec 5, 2021 23:56
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Defending in app purchases in cars is wild and will lead us to the ultimate endgame of performance subscription services and season passes. But for cars. Actually it just hit me we’re already there what with the arbitrary safe driving mini game game you have to do to even get access to the FSD beta.
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Dec 5, 2021 23:58
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Warrior Princess posted:Is there maybe an issue with your AC? I live in MS and it's definitely more than decent enough here. I'm in southern Indiana and have even noticed the Volt AC is not so great sometimes. However I believe it's down to a good chuck of the AC capacity being used to cool the battery on hot days. Especially when the car is first started after sitting in the sun all day.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:06
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^That is quite possible. Papercut posted:Maybe it's just because I'm still driving a 2008 Toyota Yaris, but I do not expect free software-driven performance upgrades for a car I've already bought and their existence doesn't effect my view at all of a car I've chosen to buy. If the Yaris actually came with a V8 but only one bank was activated some people might be interested in using the full capability of the vehicle.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:27
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Godholio posted:If the Yaris actually came with a V8 but only one bank was activated some people might be interested in using the full capability of the vehicle. Indeed. And those people could either: A. Buy the unlock from the car's manufacturer. B. Unlock it themselves using aftermarket tools and void any warranty or rights to future updates they might otherwise have. C. Buy a car with however much performance they want/need to begin with and stop worrying about the whole thing. B and C are currently available for pretty much every person and car right now if you have the money. So only A would be new here.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:41
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I'm not a fan of it as a concept but realistically that's probably just the best approach. Otherwise Tesla would have to make a completely different motor unit with fewer windings or whatever just to offer a slightly slower, cheaper version. In the end you get the performance you paid for so it's not such a tragedy.
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Dec 6, 2021 00:45
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SEEM editing my Motorola E815 because Verizon disabled the ability to copy pictures to the MicroSD card 
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Dec 6, 2021 00:54
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mobby_6kl posted:I'm not a fan of it as a concept but realistically that's probably just the best approach. Otherwise Tesla would have to make a completely different motor unit with fewer windings or whatever just to offer a slightly slower, cheaper version. In the end you get the performance you paid for so it's not such a tragedy. I mean, yeah they probably should? Their 35k entry point for the model 3 was very appealing.
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Dec 6, 2021 01:12
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EV thread mk 3 - You paid for a handjob.
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Dec 6, 2021 01:25
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Why pay for the whole seat if you only need the edge?
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Dec 6, 2021 01:31
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Wouldn't be the first time Tesla goes by usage (unless they've readded lumbar support since)
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Dec 6, 2021 01:34
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Any trick to getting a Polestar 2 test drive in the DC area? They're all booked up for the month and I just got some "sorry not sorry" email when I did the manual request. The Tesla location I got my Model 3 test drive at was all booked, too, but when I did the manual request I had a call center employee call me and set one up that afternoon.
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Dec 6, 2021 01:36
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So my Tesla which is always parked outside has a bunch of ice on the hood from the freezing rain this morning, which will likely be stuck there for several days since it is going to be cloudy and bitterly cold for the next few days. I should go buy a bunch of de-icing washer fluid and a couple spray bottles just so I can clear the headlights at least. One of the disadvantages of having an EV in winter, insufficient waste heat to melt the snow and ice off the rest of the vehicle. More than a few times the wipers have been frozen in place too, they need to put a electric defrosting element where they sit on the windshield because the regular defroster doesn't reach that far down.
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Dec 6, 2021 01:48
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