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OwlFancier posted:By that logic Sinn Fein identify as British. Sometimes it's not as much about whether you identify as British, but whether the state identifies you as British. The same could be said for a bunch of other stuff that's mostly socially constructed. We know that race is a myth, but we also know that racism is real, and the best way to prove that racism is real is to do social surveys where we look at life results of population groups by race. But race is a myth, so we get people to do a box checking exercise where people put down what race they would consider themselves, which is often more about what race other people would consider them to be than anything else. Or gender self ID being an important thing even though the end goal is a society where gender doesn't matter. It's like a giant game of Oklahoma forehead. e: 411 used to be directory assistance in the US and Canada, and is still slang for 'information'.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:04
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Yes but there's a difference between the state identifying me as british and me identifying me as british. A lot of people use the identities they have put upon them without liking them or internalizing them, and you aren't appealing to people by saying the identity they have been assigned is something they should be proud of when they would much rather not have it.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:11
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https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1201248365251629056?lang=enbaka kaba posted:need a strategy to combat the tory-supporting establishment though being accommodating and amorphous was also what allowed Corbyn to play triangulatory cards without factions within the left flipping out over it - a more confrontational leader would have scared off the soft left rapidly. When Corbyn was reckoned an inevitable Prime Minister not so long ago, this was exactly the argument advanced to explain why Corbynism was moving from strength to strength when other left-wing efforts were struggling over Wagenknecht's immigration turn or Mélenchon's conspiracism or Iglesias's perennial desire to refight the civil war not particularly on foreign policy - that being the Corbyn pičce de résistance - but certainly over immigration and other elements of domestic policy. Bobbies on the beat! since all of Corbyn's potential successors are politically too young to have voted against/for Iraq but for/against Afghanistan or Sierra Leone (insert as appropriate), and the Iraq war itself recedes into the past, his successor on the left would certainly have to find some other unifying element... change is in the air. But I don't think there is any successor who could maintain the intra-left unity that Corbyn enjoyed, and some degree of confrontationalism (and ensuing soft-left-flipping-out) is inevitable, and indeed there is no position any leader candidate could find to please all stakeholders to the same extent... more Patriotic, Less Patriotic, continuity levels of Patriotism, someone's going to be unhappy
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Dec 30, 2019 15:18
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The thing closest thing I can think of for uniting socialism and patriotism would be claiming that socialist values = our country's values, and we'll defend them at all cost. Which kinda presupposes the people you're trying to win over accept that framing. And it always runs the risk of flipping the equation around so our country's values = socialist values, so you're expected to follow the state unquestioningly to be a good socialist no matter what policies it pursues. I could see the whole "We* forced the world** to abandon*** slavery****" angle be used as an blueprint for what Britain should be on the world stage, a force for good that attempts to brings other countries in line with British = Socialist values, but it basically presupposes Britain as a world power, and that this mission will remain pure and not immediately turn into liberal interventionism. "Nuke the enemies of the working class" honestly seems about as viable a plan, and a better slogan.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:19
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Guavanaut posted:e: 411 used to be directory assistance in the US and Canada, and is still slang for 'information'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm55ru7n1BE StarkingBarfish posted:Well yeah, this is what I was saying, I don't think stooping low by acknowledging right wing talking points has ever worked so if you are appealing to patriotism I think you're fighting the wrong battle. it sure could be, but I'd hope RLB isn't going down that path and from that small bit of her article it sounded like she wanted to explicitly go the other way I look at it as talking over someone - if you have the gammons saying that patriotism is hating foreigners and allowing are boys to commit war crimes with impunity, you can effectively ignore that and talk about how patriotism is about doing good things, holding good values, being proud of the positive things you've done and that you're working to achieve without excusing the bad stuff. You don't have to get into a debate about it and acknowledge the right-wing perspective, you can push something better and say this is who we are and who we aspire to be. Make it the narrative I guess it's like... when I see a flag from one country being displayed in another, like from someone's house, it's kinda nice - it's someone being proud of their identity and community and wanting to share that with people. That kind of pride doesn't need to be  , patriotism can be that expression of connectedness and solidarity and a set of values. So it's healthy if that need (which does exist in people) can be turned to a positive, leftist image that celebrates good things and calls out the bad, rather than leaving that space for the right wing to push lovely insular viewsPut it this way, some people don't want to be ashamed of being British, and if the only people selling a positive vision of that are on the right, well you're gonna get more tories (or worse)
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Dec 30, 2019 15:27
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How do the other states identify you? That’s the question. Something almost all of us ITT have in common is that the rest of the world thinks we’re British, applies stereotypes about the British to us, deals with us based on British “prestige” (ha!), accords us the rights that it has negotiated with our government, and so on. If you will never under any circumstances leave the country and are confident that the country will never break apart or be invaded, I guess that doesn’t matter. If any aspect of your life is ever going to be decided by someone who isn’t British but thinks that you are, then being British is relevant to you.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:27
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Someone should ask RLB her leader-candidate thoughts on the GRA, that would make for fireworks
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Dec 30, 2019 15:28
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Seeing it put like that feels like bluff calling. Like, "ok you say you're patriotic. Is that because you want to celebrate what makes the country good, in which case there's work to do or is it to attack people, because if it's that you're just a racist" I don't know if that's the thinking or if it's a good strategy
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Dec 30, 2019 15:31
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I also think it's meaningless, whether I care about other people has nothing whatsoever to do with my feelings about the country. I do not love the country one bit.
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Dec 30, 2019 15:37
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ronya posted:Wagenknecht  ??? I don't really see a problem with working to keep the "soft left" together or whatever, but I don't know exactly who you're including in that. My issue is that Corbyn becoming leader really was a sea change in the party, not so much a threat to the previous order as an outright rout - they lost control. But instead of consolidating power, Corbyn effectively let them continue to not only play a role in the party but also represent it - outwardly not a lot changed, especially when these people were being given so much of Labour's media platform, they were still the face of the party telling everyone some entryist saboteurs had seized power and needed to be turfed out Bobbies on the beat is a good sell, and given the status quo it's not even that objectionable - we have a system, it's underresourced, so until that system is changed it needs to be run better or you get problems. "Jeremy is a bad leader nobody wants him and he's a terrorist sympathiser reincarnation of hitler" needs work as far as triangulation goes
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Dec 30, 2019 15:38
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Isomermaid posted:Seeing it put like that feels like bluff calling. Like, "ok you say you're patriotic. Is that because you want to celebrate what makes the country good, in which case there's work to do or is it to attack people, because if it's that you're just a racist" it was very deft, in the circumstances - he was in York to give a scheduled speech on the manifesto foreign policy and then the London Bridge attack happened just before... the overarching theme was Labour's 'New Internationalism' and suddenly he had the unpleasant task of making it not about Labour Blames Britain For Getting Bombed (even whilst very helpful Labour activists scream from the rooftops about chickens that may or may not be roosting) on the whole, he succeeded, I think - it did not become a headline and most people forgot about it ronya fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 15:40
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baka kaba posted:
What does 'consolidating power' mean here, exactly? It had a very definite meaning back when the General Management Committees roamed the lands and electing uniform slates of delegates at every level of the party was the name of the game. But what does that mean today? Corbyn, in three short years, already succeeded in doing so amongst the key governing committees - the entire NEC save a toothless Deputy Leader was a left slate, the constitutional committee is now wholly controlled by the left, and both BAME Labour and Labour Students have finally been coralled. There is the PLP. But would it have been a good idea? - it is too democratic, the CLPs are really hard to machine even when there's only a few CLPs to pour activists into, remember the failed attempt to deselect Jess Phillips? - and at the same time holding the PLP is not actually as powerful as it once was. It cannot block a left-wing candidate any longer, and that was essentially its sole power as early as 2015. And for this need you're describing - namely, not to have a parade of Labour names briefing against the party - it is not enough to have a plurality or even a majority or a supermajority - you would need to have near-unanimity, to make sure that 40% of party selectorate is not selecting 40% of voices to brief against the winning faction... and that kind of discipline is just not compatible with any kind of mass party. * the Labour left has been perpetually convinced that it can easily swing the CLPs since the New Left star was rising and Stuart Holland was duelling Anthony Crosland across the party rooftops. The problem there is that unlike joint committees, CLPs are small enough to allow too many right-wingers to slip through, and they don't actually need a majority of MPs to break the illusion of consensus acclamation, that those who disagree are just lone cranks. And that illusion is what is actually politically effective
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Dec 30, 2019 16:12
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Sure, I don't know what would have been possible - and maybe I'm expecting too much considering what Corbyn did manage to achieve in only a few years. But when the PLP is spending their time actively trying to destroy the viability of your leadership, over and over in media appearance after briefing after coordinated resignation circus, that's a sign that they believe they you're weak and they can defeat you and get control back. It's a big tent but the clowns are still being given access to pies while they keep pelting the ringmaster Maybe you can't force people out and install more loyal people (and obviously that's not Corbyn's style) but if discipline is an issue, then what do you do about it? Sure waiting and letting them burn themselves out or abandon the party worked, but it also meant they had years to convince people not to vote for the current Labour party in an election. The new leadership's gonna have to get a handle on that one way or another, but hopefully there'll be less of it now the makeup has shifted
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Dec 30, 2019 16:24
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I mean fundamentally you can't, that's how our system of government works, MPs aren't accountable to anyone once they're in office.
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Dec 30, 2019 16:27
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sure but as a member of a party they want to be involved in stuff, initiatives that are important to them, things that will help their career. which is partly why so many of them were so mad, they were set for a comfortable career path and then the hard left got in and ruined everything you could also call them out in public instead of letting them act out without any challenge
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Dec 30, 2019 16:30
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Sort of? It depends how many of them actually view the party as their preferred career path or whether they're willing to burn it to improve their own position in the media set in the hopes of transitioning to other work, which, well, a lot of them are. Because it's a quite viable strategy.
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Dec 30, 2019 16:33
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somehow not shocked it's only taken 2 weeks for people on the corbyn left to fall in behind half-arsed flag waving bollocks like "progressive patriotism". even if you think that garbage is viable *nobody who voted tory gives a poo poo because they already support a far right nationalist project*. this is purely an exercise in pleasing guardian type wankers. dreadful stuff.
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Dec 30, 2019 16:37
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the last failed coup was in January 2017; at some point one has to stop blaming it for one's ailings, especially after the 2017 triumph and then the six-month dribbling-away of the 2017 triumph If you think about major headlines from the party over the past year - Skripal, IHRA+, Brexit from Euros to Conference to General Election - you may notice that the intraparty struggles emerge from disputes between factions of Corbyn loyalists. The PLP dissidents are relegated to being jeering spectators... the complaint here would be more aptly filed under Corbyn not exercising a whip hand on loyal supporters rather than the noisy intraparty dissidents. When the Shadow Foreign Secretary was Hilary Benn from the party right, OK, maybe there's some purging in the cards. But there were three rounds of purging up to Jan 2017 and by this year it was Shadow Foreign Secretary Thornberry briefing against the party to the Graun immediately after the Euros, with the full aid and comfort of Shadow Chancellor McDonnell... "IT'S THE RIGHTISTS WOT DUN IT" just loses its credibility at this point ronya fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 16:37
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I'm hopeful that RLB & co want to redefine what patriotism is. Like that's actually the kind of thing we need to do I think to get a Labour government. Keep the politics where it is, the policies are sound, people actually like them, but they buy into soundbite poo poo like "Brexit is patriotic!" and that needs challenging.
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Dec 30, 2019 16:56
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sinky posted:Estradiol in the water supply is a bold manifesto pledge. I vote for guerrilla leuprorelin injections. We can have trans-posadism built on withered gonads
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Dec 30, 2019 17:30
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OwlFancier posted:By that logic Sinn Fein identify as British. You are aware that Sinn Fein don’t take their seats; and so don’t get to vote against anyone doing anything?
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Dec 30, 2019 17:46
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gh0stpinballa posted:even if you think that garbage is viable *nobody who voted tory gives a poo poo because they already support a far right nationalist project* the tories barely increased their vote share, that wasn't really the issue get people invested in voting labour. if that involves them waving a little flag, fine, so long as you're not pandering to all the usual bullshit that comes with it. change people's ideas about what britain is. suck some of the air out of the right wing, and not by following them either. turn this thing that exists into something positive instead of letting it be nationalistic dogwhistling that hurts people and is used to undermine you
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Dec 30, 2019 17:50
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radmonger posted:You are aware that Sinn Fein don’t take their seats; and so don’t get to vote against anyone doing anything? They are a british electoral entity, people vote for them, they participate in the british electoral system by very pointedly making GBS threads on it.
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Dec 30, 2019 17:50
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OwlFancier posted:They are a british electoral entity, people vote for them, they participate in the british electoral system by very pointedly making GBS threads on it. ‘100 county Sinn Fein’ is certainly a novel strategy
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Dec 30, 2019 17:57
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Their abstentionism is on the grounds that they should be taking their seats for those constituencies in the Dáil though, not out of any objection to national politics.
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Dec 30, 2019 17:57
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Guavanaut posted:Their abstentionism is on the grounds that they should be taking their seats for those constituencies in the Dáil though, not out of any objection to national politics. wouldn't they also have to swear an oath to the Queen? which would be, er, an Issue
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Dec 30, 2019 18:11
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But it is a specific rejection of british national identity, despite participating in the british electoral system. Which I don't think is remotely conflicting? If you can participate in an electoral system for the purpose of rejecting its legitimacy over you (in favour of a different nation) I don't think it's a stretch to suggest you can do the same but in favour of no nation? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 18:12
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ronya posted:the last failed coup was in January 2017; at some point one has to stop blaming it for one's ailings, theyre doing one right now. Theres a times article. Don't confuse the fact that the press thought the chicken coup was too much of an embarassing left-wing victory to focus more effort on with this idea that they stopped. And on the IHRA, no amount of insane self defeating soundbytes change the fact that this is an issue being astroturfed with the gleeful assistance of the right. There will never be a right thing to say or do over a media scandal that doesnt acknowledge reality thats not to say we'd have got away with it without these meddling melts but theyre exactly as much a vacuous pain in the arse as ever Spangly A fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 18:17
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Julio Cruz posted:wouldn't they also have to swear an oath to the Queen? which would be, er, an Issue I believe the Shinners have been asked if they would take their seats if they were allowed to swear an oath to their people instead of to the Queen, and they said they still wouldn't. Participation in the system is what they consider to be surrender, not specifically allegiance to the Crown.
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Dec 30, 2019 18:20
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Julio Cruz posted:wouldn't they also have to swear an oath to the Queen? which would be, er, an Issue Whereas their objection is to both the Queen and Parliament having any say in Ireland, and conversely Ireland having any say in the internal politics of Britain. They still go to Westminster talk to other MPs and do constituency work, but they consider the idea of them sitting down and voting on a British law as illegitimate as the idea of British law having any place in NI. OwlFancier posted:But it is a specific rejection of british national identity, despite participating in the british electoral system. Which I don't think is remotely conflicting? I can't think of anyone who ever ran anywhere (maybe Vermin Supreme and some of the Libertarian and hippy candidates) on "don't feel part of this nation-state, don't really want to form another" grounds. e: Thinking about it maybe the Blairite careerists and Tory looters were the closest to not really having an allegiance, but that's for different reasons and the latter will still sing Rule Britannia. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Dec 30, 2019 |
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Dec 30, 2019 18:26
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*shrug* it makes perfect sense to me. If you put two buttons in front of me, one electrocutes me, the other doesn't, if I don't press either of them I get electrocuted anyway. I'm probably gonna press the "do not electrocute me" button, but that isn't a tacit endorsement of the possible-electrocution system.
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Dec 30, 2019 18:28
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baka kaba posted:the tories barely increased their vote share, that wasn't really the issue vote share is completely incidental to my argument which is labour won't win the flag fuckers with tepid nationalism when the flag fuckers already get the real thing from the right quote:get people invested in voting labour. if that involves them waving a little flag, fine, so long as you're not pandering to all the usual bullshit that comes with it. the "usual bullshit" is the entire point of british (english) people waving their little flag quote:change people's ideas about what britain is. suck some of the air out of the right wing, and not by following them either. there is no such thing as a benign british/english patriotism, we are bloodsoaked and adding more bodies for queen and country as we speak. the only group who've tried to push an alternative kind of patriotism recently were the remain people, and they merely swapped rabid english nationalism for kind of rabid euro nationalism. they're a non issue now as a result. quote:turn this thing that exists into something positive instead of letting it be nationalistic dogwhistling that hurts people and is used to undermine you the whole point of british nationalism is that it's code for white supremacy and racism and its sole purpose is to hurt and undermine people who don't want any part of it. you can't be a halfway crook with this poo poo, it is poison.
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Dec 30, 2019 19:01
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See I understand, but if you are going to argue "we are blood soaked monsters who will continue to do bad things until we vote for us", it's not exactly a vote winner and a lot of people just take any critique of a nation state or generation as inherently personal.
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Dec 30, 2019 20:29
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Can you do national politics at the national level without invoking some amount of nationalism accidentally or on purpose? The only paths I can see are:-
You can talk about things other than 'nations' or 'states', like municipalism or various non-nationalized forms of social ownership, but they have their own access issues and I don't see people getting anywhere with them at the national politics level or via a national government.
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Dec 30, 2019 20:30
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Solidarity Fund update: We currently have 7 people who have nominated themselves for the fund committee. We're looking to fill 5 spots so it would be really great if we had a few more people come forward to give everyone a decent set of options for voting. Anyone who's interested please get in touch with myself before the end of the year! Thank you!
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Dec 30, 2019 20:32
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I am cautiously optimistic that this socialism with nationalist tendencies is intended to further the leftist cause and that as long as we don't take any of the negatives of it but just take all the positives, our socialism with nationalist tendencies project will be nothing but beneficial to the people of the nation.
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Dec 30, 2019 20:38
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Dec 30, 2019 20:47
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Pesmerga posted:I am cautiously optimistic that this socialism with nationalist tendencies is intended to further the leftist cause and that as long as we don't take any of the negatives of it but just take all the positives, our socialism with nationalist tendencies project will be nothing but beneficial to the people of the nation. I'm like 75% sure the phrase was a dead cat to get the leadership bid out of the door without anyone commenting on the lack of actual ideas or anyone thinking too hard about which way around they'd prefer the RLB-Raynor ticket. I'm 100% sure that 'progressive patriotism' will turn out to have always been whatever the conversation in the Labour party concludes it means.
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Dec 30, 2019 20:49
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Pesmerga posted:I am cautiously optimistic that this socialism with nationalist tendencies is intended to further the leftist cause and that as long as we don't take any of the negatives of it but just take all the positives, our socialism with nationalist tendencies project will be nothing but beneficial to the people of the nation. Labour should be internationalist, but most people who vote don't really want to vote Labour, so what can we do?
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Dec 30, 2019 20:59
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Alchenar posted:I'm like 75% sure the phrase was a dead cat to get the leadership bid out of the door without anyone commenting on the lack of actual ideas or anyone thinking too hard about which way around they'd prefer the RLB-Raynor ticket. I'm 100% sure that 'progressive patriotism' will turn out to have always been whatever the conversation in the Labour party concludes it means. Maybe, but it also seems to me that Blue Labour are winning the internal party argument, and that the complete lack of ideas will result in the absolute worst of triangulation that some people sympathising with the Labour left will somehow continue to excuse/ignore/justify in a 'actually, we were always pro-patriotism actually' rhetoric.
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Dec 30, 2019 21:01
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