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Mr. Carlisle posted:So apparently UFC has just given their fighters insurance policies for injuries sustained in fights and the fighters don't even pay a premium for their policy. During a recent Wrestling Observer Radio they said that WWE picks up the tab for some of the major surgeries for things that happen in the ring - is there any chance they may follow suit and insure all the wrestlers? I guess money would be an issue. With WWE wanting to take on debts to buy new properties and whatnot I don't think they'd want to spend even more on something that Vince probably doesn't see as an issue at all
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May 10, 2011 15:27
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There's a big difference in that UFC fighters are sustaining their injuries in training completely outside of UFC's control, so it makes sense to have an insurance company involved because UFC isn't monitoring anything so they would need to develop a claims/approval process. The WWE is different in that all training happens on WWE's watch so they know what their workers are doing at all times. I've never heard an account of WWE not paying for a wrestler's medical bills (while they are under contract) so they are providing what the insurance company would be providing while cutting out the middle man (and their overhead). Also, the UFC still isn't doing anything for fighters outside of contract either. If there were a real combat sports/wrestlers union the first thing they would negotiate is mandatory insurance for the duration of a contract and lifelong health insurance after a certain career point. Other real sports already have this.
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May 10, 2011 15:59
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InfoAficionado posted:The WWE is different in that all training happens on WWE's watch so they know what their workers are doing at all times.
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May 10, 2011 16:06
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Korak posted:No it doesn't, where did you hear or read this? Some training happens in the ring before shows but a lot of it is done in other places. Luckily there hasn't ever been that many injuries to WWE wrestlers outside of the ring other than people crashing their ATVs and stuff like that. Where else does training occur? The gym? When they are on the road they have daily contact with the company.
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May 10, 2011 16:07
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BigRed0427 posted:Does New Japan still have an english website? And is there anyway to follow Recent New Japan shows besides Youtube? Download shows when they come out.
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May 10, 2011 22:40
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InfoAficionado posted:Where else does training occur? The gym? When they are on the road they have daily contact with the company. Literally this. Wrestlers talk about hitting local gyms all the time on the road - not to mention major injuries sometimes take place outside the ring. Batista's pec injury happened while jogging. I'm pretty sure one of Anderson's and one of HHH's injuries happened while training too.
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May 10, 2011 22:57
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InfoAficionado posted:There's a big difference in that UFC fighters are sustaining their injuries in training completely outside of UFC's control, so it makes sense to have an insurance company involved because UFC isn't monitoring anything so they would need to develop a claims/approval process. This all actually makes WWE's refusal to provide medical insurance far far far worse, because fighters have a much greater degree of contractual control of their own careers. UFC has a legitimate claim to the fighters' independent contractor status, whereas everyone who spends more than five seconds considering WWE's case comes to the conclusion that it's a sham designation.
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May 10, 2011 23:00
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George Kaplan posted:Literally this. Wrestlers talk about hitting local gyms all the time on the road - not to mention major injuries sometimes take place outside the ring. Batista's pec injury happened while jogging. I'm pretty sure one of Anderson's and one of HHH's injuries happened while training too. However, what is the statistical chance of injury while doing full contact boxing training verses say lifting weights? I would argue that injury is more likely to occur in a full contact training session as opposed to gym work. This however presumes that the wrestlers don't spend a lot of time practicing in the ring. I imagine John Cena works out everyday/everyother day, where as Brock Lesnar has to work out, practice punching people, practice "real" wrestling etc etc. So I would say, from those assumptions that there would be less injuries in training for WWE. Feel free to correct me on this, they're just my thoughts.
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May 11, 2011 03:20
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Is there a single thing that Vince ever did that shows him to be a good promoter? Every story I hear makes him out to be Monty Burns-level insane. The amount of huge draws he almost passed up on/ruined because they were too small boggles my mind. Has he done anything right besides being extremely lucky to inherit a hot territory from his dad and then gobble up the other territories from guys who must have been dumber than rocks? This sounds like a loaded question, but I really have never heard of Vince finding a good talent and then pushing them and sticking with them. It's always "this guy can't work/draw/be seven feet tall," and then the Brets and Shawns and Foleys and Austins always have to go through a million hoops that they would never bother with if Vince weren't the only game in town.
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May 11, 2011 05:52
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Satire Forum Mom posted:Brets and Shawns and Foleys and Austins always have to go through a million hoops that they would never bother with if Vince weren't the only game in town. Vince wasn't the only game in town for any of those guys. Also, it's a carny as hell business, filled with lots of idiot promoters; it's tough not to look like a relative genius after you're the last big shot standing. Vince was the first person to make a successful national wrestling company, foregoing the territory system of the time. He got nationally televised wrestling and ppv wrestling to be common. That company's still around decades later. That alone makes him successful.
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May 11, 2011 05:57
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Rodney the Piper posted:Vince wasn't the only game in town for any of those guys. Also, it's a carny as hell business, filled with lots of idiot promoters; it's tough not to look like a relative genius after you're the last big shot standing. I'm reading Bret's book now, and Vince was just starting to be the only game in town at the time Bret joined the WWF. There were still other territories, but the real money was in New York. And nobody better talk about Bret's biases - I'm only talking about how Vince said Bret and Owen were too small, and pushed tons of other green big men like Tom Magee.
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May 11, 2011 06:02
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Satire Forum Mom posted:Is there a single thing that Vince ever did that shows him to be a good promoter? No, Vince is a terrible promoter and has never had any clue what he was doing. That's why the WWF went out of business back in 1985.
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May 11, 2011 06:10
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Hirams Bitch posted:No, Vince is a terrible promoter and has never had any clue what he was doing. That's why the WWF went out of business back in 1985. Well, at least the WBF, XFL, and WWF New York are all thriving cash cows!
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May 11, 2011 06:16
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Satire Forum Mom posted:Is there a single thing that Vince ever did that shows him to be a good promoter? Well, first of all, Vince still sees wrestling as a carnival sideshow business - which is why he dislikes the association. ESPN, Versus, Fox Sports, whoever, all see it as a goofy live-action cartoon. And why shouldn't they? For every clever 'serious' storyline the WWE comes up with, they have Santino in drag/Mae Young stripping/Kiss My rear end Club. When it comes to business, though, Vince mostly seems pretty sharp. WCW hemorrhaged money on production, (guarantee) contracts, music, live acts, guest stars, and on and on. Plus, they blew big-money matches on TV. So, as far as business goes, Vince has enough to brag about : - He basically admitted that wrestling wasn't a real sport, which got him out of paying licensing fees and what have you to state athletic comissions. UFC and boxing still have to pay these, however. - He was the guy that made pay-per-view viable. He experimented with going week-to-week with Tuesday in Texas, which didn't really pan out, and instead found a workable month-to-month PPV schedule. He pretty much bullied the cable companies into the "if you show PPVs of other wrestling companies, you can't have Wrestlemania", but that worked. Back then, anyway. - Vince (and Kevin Dunn) are responsible for the level of production you see on TV. Music, lighting, costumes, sets, high definition - all pioneered by the WWF/E. Yes, I know Gorgeous George was the guy who came up with the entrances and all, but Vince and company were the first to gear wrestling for TV, not the other way around. Vince hired Jim Johnston to do in-house themes, makeup artists, costume designers, and so forth. - It's kind of scummy, but Vince has successfully kept his employees from unionizing. Or getting health benefits. Or getting travel reimbursement aside from air fare and international travel. That may change soon, however - but it's saved him a ton of money. - He's made WrestleMania into an event that major cities actually fight over. It usually gets around (and often above) 1 million buys. - He bought WCW and its tape library for ridiculously cheap. Same for ECW, AWA, and on and on. - Merchandising. Games, shirts, toys, DVDs/Blu-Rays, Rey Mysterio masks, and on and on. - If nothing else, Vince and his cronies are good judges of talent. Throughout the years, they've plucked a lot of great talent from the territories and indies. Even if they never actually managed to push them correctly, they certainly knew which talent losses would cripple other promotions. As long as you ignore stuff like Giant Gonzalez (Gonzales?), Great Khali, and so forth. - When someone works well, Vince puts his faith in them. He told Bret "you're the great worker, you figure it out" when Bret once asked him what he thought the match finish should be (memory escapes me, I think it was the SummerSlam '92 match). Rock, Austin and Triple H were given a lot of leeway in their promos and matches. Knowing when the hell to get out of the way seems smart to me. That's just what comes to mind. Just a random thought: Promoting yourself as unequaled is a good thing. I always thought it was odd that for a long time, they refused to acknowledge that any other promotion existed in the world, and for a large part, still don't. WCW/NWA had many super-events in Japan and Mexico, which the WWF experimented with in the early 90s, but they've largely avoided that. Are they missing out by not cross-promoting internationally, or should they come into Tokyo alone, promoting themselves as a bigger attractiong?
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May 11, 2011 06:27
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WWE New York was actually an on-the-moment business strategy. From everything I heard about it, they didn't intend for it to be a restaurant - it was actually going to be something else, and it went well for what it was. Heck, Zack Ryder had one of his birthday parties there, so if nothing else...
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May 11, 2011 06:29
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Golden Bee posted:WWE New York was actually an on-the-moment business strategy. From everything I heard about it, they didn't intend for it to be a restaurant - it was actually going to be something else, and it went well for what it was. Heck, Zack Ryder had one of his birthday parties there, so if nothing else... WWE NY/The World lost an absurd amount of money. Enough that it put the WWE in the red for its final year of operation.
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May 11, 2011 06:35
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Red posted:awesome post Thanks! Can't really argue with Wrestlemania - probably the biggest and best success story. The TV production values are really, great, too. I guess it's true he understands how to market wrestling.
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May 11, 2011 06:52
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Red posted:I know Gorgeous George was the guy who came up with the entrances and all I'm not picking this out of your good post to be a dick, but I'd like some clarification on this. I thought Michael PS Hayes came up with entrance themes?
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May 11, 2011 06:57
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MassRayPer posted:WWE NY/The World lost an absurd amount of money. Enough that it put the WWE in the red for its final year of operation. I can't put a price on Zack Ryder's happiness!
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May 11, 2011 06:59
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Also, what is the nature of Vince's arrangement with MSG? Were MMA to become legal in NY, would UFC be able to run an event there?
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May 11, 2011 07:18
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DannoMack posted:Also, what is the nature of Vince's arrangement with MSG? Were MMA to become legal in NY, would UFC be able to run an event there? It's the same as every other arena which is only exclusive for pro wrestling, and MSG would probably tell WWE to pound sand if they tried to keep UFC out.
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May 11, 2011 07:22
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DannoMack posted:Also, what is the nature of Vince's arrangement with MSG? Were MMA to become legal in NY, would UFC be able to run an event there? I honestly don't remember what the exact arrangement is, but MSG's management is one of the group's pushing for the legalization of MMA in NY. UFC would definitely be able to run in the Garden.
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May 11, 2011 07:22
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jeffersonlives posted:It's the same as every other arena which is only exclusive for pro wrestling, and MSG would probably tell WWE to pound sand if they tried to keep UFC out. Actually they have deals with buildings that don't allow the building to hold MMA events within a certain timeframe around a WWE show as well. This kept Shark Fights out of a building recently.
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May 11, 2011 07:24
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MassRayPer posted:This kept Shark Fights out of a building recently. Makes sense for WWE to not want Steve Austin fighting on another show so close to a WWE event.
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May 11, 2011 07:35
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MassRayPer posted:Actually they have deals with buildings that don't allow the building to hold MMA events within a certain timeframe around a WWE show as well. This kept Shark Fights out of a building recently. I could have sworn UFC and WWE ran the Prudential Center on back-to-back days just a few months ago, and whatever the Garden is named now in the same weekend last year. That's odd that it would only be for some reasons.
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May 11, 2011 07:37
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jeffersonlives posted:I could have sworn UFC and WWE ran the Prudential Center on back-to-back days just a few months ago, and whatever the Garden is named now in the same weekend last year. That's odd that it would only be for some reasons. Basically they can't keep UFC out but they can gently caress with small promotions since they know the building will tell them to go gently caress themselves and take the UFC event instead. Realistically now the only promotions this could cause problems with is Shark Fights and Bellator, and really only the Bellator events at Mohegan.
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May 11, 2011 07:42
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DannoMack posted:I'm not picking this out of your good post to be a dick, but I'd like some clarification on this. I thought Michael PS Hayes came up with entrance themes? What I meant is that among professional wrestlers, Gorgeous George was a big deal when TVs first went on sale to the public. Up until George, most wrestlers looked and acted like real sportsmen, and kayfabe was presented so that most fans/marks thought it was real. George was the first to popularize the entertainment aspect of wrestling - he had a robe, a butler, and his own music. He acted and walked/worked effeminately, and crowds turned out to see the character. The referee would try to feel his boots for foreign objects, and he'd scream something like "Get your hands off me, you filthy animal!", and the fans would go nuts. Up until George, most wrestlers were just competitors, and were presented as straight athletes. George was the first real character. George used 'Pomp and Circumstance' as entrance music, but what I meant by my previous post is that Vince and his pals designed music for a wrestler, and, eventually hired mainstream(ish) music artists to do so as well. The WWF/E was also the first to come up with entrance videos for the crowd to see, which showcased a wrestler's style/appearance/character. Anyway, back to Gorgeous George, TV stations snapped it up because pro wrestling was cheap programming, so it was easy for George and the other wrestlers to get on TV, and be presented to millions of Americans. He got name-dropped in popular culture, too. I remember him being referenced on I Love Lucy. Vince, from the beginning, knew that television, and eventually, pay-per-view and video sales were the real moneymakers, and, were what made a promotion. As soon as he took over the WWWF, he started changing the promotion to one that was built for television. He made sure that lighting, costumes, music, camerawork, ring appearance/placement, and so on was all optimized for the home viewer. He knew securing national broadcasting was what would make him successful, and that pay-per-view would be what made him rich. Most of the other territories that collapsed couldn't (or wouldn't adapt) to new technology, or creating new stars, instead relying on older veterans that had made them money years ago. I'd really theorize that most of the dead promotions did themselves in, and Vince just signed away the young guys they ignored.
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May 11, 2011 08:18
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DannoMack posted:I'm not picking this out of your good post to be a dick, but I'd like some clarification on this. I thought Michael PS Hayes came up with entrance themes? George came out to the theme from 2001 iirc (What ever its proper name is). Hayes was the first to come out to rock music. ... I think... 
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May 11, 2011 10:27
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Satire Forum Mom posted:Is there a single thing that Vince ever did that shows him to be a good promoter? let's see... - made pay per view a viable revenue stream for wrestling promoters - drew the largest ever north American crowd to a wrestling show - had the highest ratings for televised wrestling in US history - became a billionaire off the back of a wrestling company naah, he's clearly poo poo.
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May 11, 2011 11:23
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LordPants posted:George came out to the theme from 2001 iirc (What ever its proper name is). The 2001: A Space Odyssey theme you're thinking of is "Also sprach Zarathustra", which was used by Ric Flair for most of his career. Red posted:George used 'Pomp and Circumstance' as entrance music And, LordPants posted:Hayes was the first to come out to rock music. Plenty of wrestlers came out to music before Hayes, and I think it'd be impossible to prove Hayes was the first to come out to rock, especially with the whole Rock'n'Wrestling thing going on a the same time - Hulk Hogan came out to Survivor's 'Eye of the Tiger', and Junkyard Dog used 'Another One Bites the Dust'. Maybe you were thinking Hayes was the first wrestler to record his own music? Nope - The first to record their own music was Freddie Blassie, with "Pencil Neck Geek" (and another less-popular song I'm forgetting), and he later had a full album in the early 80s. Although I don't know if Blassie used it as entrance music...
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May 11, 2011 11:28
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I knew that George used a theme that someone else used, in this case it was Macho. And in my defense Wikipedia states that the Freebirds were the first to use rock music, but I'll accept that is wrong.
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May 11, 2011 11:56
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Red posted:Plenty of wrestlers came out to music before Hayes, and I think it'd be impossible to prove Hayes was the first to come out to rock, especially with the whole Rock'n'Wrestling thing going on a the same time - Hulk Hogan came out to Survivor's 'Eye of the Tiger', and Junkyard Dog used 'Another One Bites the Dust'. Uh the Freebirds outdate both of those by like 5-6 years
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May 11, 2011 11:59
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The PS stands for Purely Sexy incase this question was going to be asked. Michael Purely Sexy Hayes.
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May 11, 2011 12:08
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Captain Charisma posted:Uh the Freebirds outdate both of those by like 5-6 years Hm, that's true, according to a quick Google search. Didn't Lawler use Elvis music during that time, though?
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May 11, 2011 12:10
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DEAR RICHARD posted:The PS stands for Purely Sexy incase this question was going to be asked. Not Michael "Oh by the way" Hayes?
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May 11, 2011 12:15
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Michael P. S. Hayes invented everything and was the driving force behind every good thing that has happened since slightly before his birth. You can just ask him!
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May 11, 2011 13:09
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projecthalaxy posted:Michael P. S. Hayes invented everything and was the driving force behind every good thing that has happened since slightly before his birth. You can just ask him! If you've ever watched a legends roundtable you actually don't have to ask him. He will just interrupt and tell you anyway.
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May 11, 2011 13:33
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Explain the running joke about Miz being called "Kermit." At least 3 different wrestlers have said it on TV now. Are they saying he literally looks like Kermit The Frog or it some kinda inside reference?
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May 11, 2011 15:29
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Only thing I can think of is a "he's green" joke.
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May 11, 2011 15:49
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Minidust posted:Explain the running joke about Miz being called "Kermit." At least 3 different wrestlers have said it on TV now. Are they saying he literally looks like Kermit The Frog or it some kinda inside reference? Miz once said that was his nickname in high school as well.
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May 11, 2011 15:55
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