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Cyrano4747 posted:I mean, I'm sure you can find some Clean Wehrmacht koolaid drinker on the Paradox or WoT forums or whatever
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Jan 15, 2016 19:51
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I'm reading that second paper. TL;DR: 1. The German planning for Sealion was done by the three services more or less separately. Every time a service came across something they knew they couldn't do, they'd hand-wave it away as somebody else's job. The other services were of course also doing the same thing 2. The deadline for putting this master plan into effect was three months after it was decided upon 3. For transport, the Germans collected as many cargo ships and Rhine river barges as they could. 10% of these were sunk by the RAF as they were collected and marshalled in French/Belgian ports 4. The barges were obviously not made for the North Sea. Heavy weather would sink them. They also would have to be towed at 2 knots. The Dover straight had a 5 knot tide, so the invasion fleet would take 30 hours minimum to cross, even at the shortest distances 5. Because horses had to be taken along as well, they* were constructing rafts that would be towed behind the barges. These poor horses would also spend something like 30 fuckin' hours minimum on these rafts *an engineering corps from Bavaria with no experience whatsoever with building boats 6. Some 20,000 seamen were needed to man the various ships and barges, horsey-rafts etc. After doing everything they could to drag up the men, they were still 4000 men short 7. Total transport abaility for the Germans: less than one division 8. Total land forces just in the area the Germans were planning to land: 2 Territorial Divisions, 1 Brigade from India, 1 Brigade from New Zealand, 1 Armoured Division, 1 Canadian Division, 1 Army Tank Brigade And so on
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Jan 15, 2016 20:02
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The one tidbit that I love is that all those barges, being meant for rivers and not open water and don't have much freeboard at all. Such that loaded down with men and supplies as they would have been, basically the entire invasion could have been scuppered by a few RN destroyers cursing back and forth and swamping the barges with their wake.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:07
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Arrath posted:The one tidbit that I love is that all those barges, being meant for rivers and not open water and don't have much freeboard at all. Such that loaded down with men and supplies as they would have been, basically the entire invasion could have been scuppered by a few RN destroyers cursing back and forth and swamping the barges with their wake. A fantastic mental image.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:08
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what
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Jan 15, 2016 20:08
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SeanBeansShako posted:A fantastic mental image. Maybe the horses could be saved
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Jan 15, 2016 20:16
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I seem to remember that things they couldn't do were used as ammunition in trying to get another service to admit it was impossible first, which led to fun like the Army demanding a clear landing zone wider than D-Day had just to get the Navy to back out.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:23
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Arrath posted:The one tidbit that I love is that all those barges, being meant for rivers and not open water and don't have much freeboard at all. Such that loaded down with men and supplies as they would have been, basically the entire invasion could have been scuppered by a few RN destroyers cursing back and forth and swamping the barges with their wake. All of the AAA mounts on the barges would sink them!
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Jan 15, 2016 20:26
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HEY GAL posted:what Germans aren't good at the whole cross-Channel invasion thing.
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Jan 15, 2016 20:40
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my dad posted:Or the people who answered "Germany" 
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Jan 15, 2016 20:50
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In terms of WWII national myths, I'm assuming that other Commonwealth countries have the same mythology New Zealand adopted post-war: whenever we succeeded at something, it was all by ourselves with Britons and Americans gaping in astonishment at how good we were, and when we didn't it was all the fault of the British somehow (or the Americans if this doesn't make sense). This being how the glorious New Zealand division was let down by Britain in Greece and Crete, before singlehandedly conquering North Africa (Americans and Brits permitted to tag along) and then most of Italy before everyone got distracted by a sideshow in Normandy, obviously.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:07
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'm reading that second paper. TL;DR: Not quite. One division if they invaded immediately instead of gathering barges.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:30
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:In terms of WWII national myths, I'm assuming that other Commonwealth countries have the same mythology New Zealand adopted post-war: whenever we succeeded at something, it was all by ourselves with Britons and Americans gaping in astonishment at how good we were, and when we didn't it was all the fault of the British somehow (or the Americans if this doesn't make sense). Lines up with the story I always hear from Canadians about how they became the elite troops of the war.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:33
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Nude Bog Lurker posted:In terms of WWII national myths, I'm assuming that other Commonwealth countries have the same mythology New Zealand adopted post-war: whenever we succeeded at something, it was all by ourselves with Britons and Americans gaping in astonishment at how good we were, and when we didn't it was all the fault of the British somehow (or the Americans if this doesn't make sense). Don't forget how we kind of sort of well actually nearly won gallipoli.
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Jan 15, 2016 21:51
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SlothfulCobra posted:Lines up with the story I always hear from Canadians about how they became the elite troops of the war. That's a WWI narrative, actually. I will defend to the death the honour of Sir Arthur Currie.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:07
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There's also the counter-myth that diminishes America's contribution to winning the war by basically shouting EASTERN FRONT! EASTERN FRONT!  Without meaning to take anything away from the Soviets, they were helped along by a vast amount of U.S. trucks and rolling stock.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:14
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There are people who overrepresent that though. If I remember right, it freed up roughly 1.5 million men at the key point of the war, which is big but I think smaller than the margin of victory (and of course the lowered supply and equipment for a smaller army is worth mentioning).
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Jan 15, 2016 22:23
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lenoon posted:The national myth doesn't include the Polish, or the Empire, or the French. It barely has Hurricanes (and it certainly doesn't have any of the turret fighters), it has no worry or failure, or death. The Luftwaffe are either comically evil or faceless villains. It's the most mythologised bit of history I've ever come across, and it's totally and utterly fascinating as a result. Let's not forget the Czech pilots ! It's a good, if pretty standard, WW2 movie with a love triangle, friendship through adversity and so on. Excellent aerial scenes too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7aON-mLubI
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Jan 15, 2016 22:23
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:There's also the counter-myth that diminishes America's contribution to winning the war by basically shouting EASTERN FRONT! EASTERN FRONT! There's also interesting interplay between the non-Soviet tendency of calling everything Soviet "Russian" and the modern day Russian tendency claiming every Soviet accomplishment as exclusively Russian.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:24
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hogmartin posted:How is the Katyn forest massacre acknowledged in modern Russia? Contrary to what EE has said, the sentiment in Poland is that it is being treated as a political affair and that there is still a lot of bad will on the Russian side. There was a point in, like, 2008 when it seemed that the situation would improve (Wajda's Katyń was aired on Russian TV, which was considered to be an important gesture), but a few years later it got a lot worse. The court case investigating the killings has been shut down in 2004 and the reason why was classified top secret, and I don't think it's been declassified even in spite of a unanimous verdict from the ECHR. The Polish-Russian Group for Difficult Matters has been essentially stuck on this one since 2012, when its Russian members were told to stop working on Katyń and a lot of the documents were reclassified. Meanwhile, the Kremlin does admit Russian responsibility, but refuses to classify the case as either a crime against humanity or a war crime, which means that works openly perpetuating the old Stalinist lie about the crime having been committed by the Germans can be published freely and occasionally even given state funding. I think there was a scandal about it finding its way into a school manual some years back. SeanBeansShako posted:Also, considering the film has the decency to mention the Poles (though annoyingly portraying them as unprofessional) is more accurate than the National myth? We do not mind. In fact, seeing that scene usually results in a lot of nodding and "yup, that's more or less how it went down." Our myth of the Battle of Britain has been greatly coloured by this book (apparently released in English as recently as 2010), which describes the whole affair as the stiff-upper-lip Britons looking down on Polish pilots, only letting them in once they have no other recourse, then watching slack-jawed as they fly more daringly, dangerously and effectively than anyone else (because they were used to worse planes and always taught to get in close, so they got in closer than the Brits, see).
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Jan 15, 2016 22:26
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:There's also the counter-myth that diminishes America's contribution to winning the war by basically shouting EASTERN FRONT! EASTERN FRONT! I have Soviet tank tech book that has extremely in depth technical diagrams with an intro written by a cheap party shill that's essentially a 20-page hand job to Stalin and even that acknowledges Lend-Lease contributions by the Western Allies.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:27
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Tevery Best posted:Polish-Russian Group for Difficult Matters Huh, I didn't know that was a thing. I imagine they keep quite busy.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:29
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Kemper Boyd posted:In Finland, you get a lot of "we stopped the Soviet offensive in 1944 so our independence was saved", when it was less that and more FDR and Stalin agreeing that Finland should remain independent and Stalin being far more interested in making gains towards Berlin. So, similar to the Battle of Britain in a way. You shouldn't think for a second that any agreement between Stalin and Roosevelt was going to stop Stalin from turning Finland into a Soviet outpost if it suited their needs. Neither should you think that Finland wasn't at Soviet Union's mercy after the armistice. But I think I'd rather have Russians in Porkkala than in Santahamina... At any rate, Finnish army was in a far better shape in August 1944 than it was in March 1940. Finland survived Winter War by divine intervention cut short because Stalin wasn't interested enough to risk that intervention (even if it was going to go bollocks) while Finnish resistance was already collapsing, whereas Finland survived Continuation War because Stalin wasn't interested enough to continue hunting swamp mongols for another year. It's telling that the last major battle in 1944 resulted in the encirclement of two Soviet divisions. And in the end, Finland won WW2 by ousting German enemies from Lapland. 
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Jan 15, 2016 22:35
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Ensign Expendable posted:I have Soviet tank tech book that has extremely in depth technical diagrams with an intro written by a cheap party shill that's essentially a 20-page hand job to Stalin and even that acknowledges Lend-Lease contributions by the Western Allies. That's the thing, it's almost never actual Russians (or even Soviets) doing the shouting. It's people who know enough about the war to know there was an Eastern Front and then sneering at other people because of it. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 22:40
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Ensign Expendable posted:Huh, I didn't know that was a thing. I imagine they keep quite busy. They do, they really are doing a lot of good. But every now and again they run into really frustrating stuff. They were going to publish a report on the Augustów roundup with, reportedly at least, a lot of hitherto unknown evidence, then a few months before it was ready to ship half the materials were reclassified because of a political something-or-other. But the few books (and many reports) they have published are very good.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:47
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xthetenth posted:There are people who overrepresent that though. If I remember right, it freed up roughly 1.5 million men at the key point of the war, which is big but I think smaller than the margin of victory (and of course the lowered supply and equipment for a smaller army is worth mentioning). The rolling stock wasn't as useful iirc, but the trucks were far more useful, also meant that less factories had to build trucks instead of other stuff. And cleaner gas for their planes?
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Jan 15, 2016 22:52
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What if the Germans built a tunnel under the English Channel??? You can SEE across the channel at its narrowest point!* They'd never expect it! Discuss. *Maybe, I did not look at a map.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:11
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Saint Celestine posted:What if the Germans built a tunnel under the English Channel??? You can SEE across the channel at its narrowest point!* why didn't the germans just go through the chunnel
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Jan 15, 2016 23:17
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You see it being built, you wait till they try and push an army through it, then you collapse one end of it. The real question is why didn't they fly over on rockets.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:19
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Rhymenoserous posted:You see it being built, you wait till they try and push an army through it, then you collapse one end of it. The real question is why didn't they fly over on rockets. Once ze rockets are up, who cares where zey come down?
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Jan 15, 2016 23:20
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Saint Celestine posted:You can SEE across the channel at its narrowest point!* You can indeed. Bill Bryson wrote about it when he did Notes from a Small Island. quote:I stood on a dirty beach at Calais, on an unusually bright, clear autumn afternoon, staring at an outcrop on the horizon that was clearly and sunnily the White Cliffs of Dover. I knew, in a theoretical sort of way, that England was only a spit over 20 miles off, but I couldn't quite believe that I could stand on a foreign beach and actually see it. I was so astonished, in fact, that I sought confirmation from a man trudging past in reflective mood.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:25
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my dad posted:Once ze rockets are up, who cares where zey come down? I was thinking more like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sV_j_BpWHg Thank goodness brave pilot Cliff Seacord saved us from this fate 
Rhymenoserous fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 23:28
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my dad posted:Once ze rockets are up, who cares where zey come down? Zat's not my department! e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjDEsGZLbio hogmartin fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 23:28
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:That's the thing, it's almost never actual Russians (or even Soviets) doing the shouting. It's people who know enough about the war to know there was an Eastern Front and then sneering at other people because of it. It reminds me of the joke about the Civil War- if you don't know anything you think it's about slavery, if you know something you think it's about state's rights, if you know a lot you know it's about slavery.
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Jan 15, 2016 23:34
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One of my very first internet arguments/discussions was about the ETO in WWII. I was in a full scale adolescent AMERICA SUXXX phase, which in history discussions often took the form of WELL DID YOU KNOW THE RUSSIANS DID MOST OF THE WORK ON THE EASTERN FRONT WELL DID YOU, DDAY WAS OVERRATED and so on. One day I found myself tangling with a very well informed internet nerd/historian (possibly one of you) who absolutely schooled me on how vital Lend Lease was to the Soviet war effort.Saint Celestine posted:What if the Germans built a tunnel under the English Channel??? You can SEE across the channel at its narrowest point!* No only can you see across it pretty easily, you could see the Chain Home radar stations very easily. One of my favorite WWII pics the CH aerials and 109s in flight as viewed from Calais:  bewbies fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Jan 15, 2016 |
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Jan 15, 2016 23:47
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bewbies posted:One of my very first internet arguments/discussions was about the ETO in WWII. I was in a full scale adolescent AMERICA SUXXX phase, which in history discussions often took the form of WELL DID YOU KNOW THE RUSSIANS DID MOST OF THE WORK ON THE EASTERN FRONT WELL DID YOU, DDAY WAS OVERRATED and so on. One day I found myself tangling with a very well informed internet nerd/historian (possibly one of you) who absolutely schooled me on how vital Lend Lease was to the Soviet war effort. I have a bit of a short list of people I've seen post who'd shred me in a debate about most anything, I'd wonder if it was the guy I was thinking of who decided to tally up the things sent over, the materials that went into their construction and how many Soviet man-hours it took to make all that.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:14
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bewbies posted:One of my very first internet arguments/discussions was about the ETO in WWII. I was in a full scale adolescent AMERICA SUXXX phase, which in history discussions often took the form of WELL DID YOU KNOW THE RUSSIANS DID MOST OF THE WORK ON THE EASTERN FRONT WELL DID YOU, DDAY WAS OVERRATED and so on. One day I found myself tangling with a very well informed internet nerd/historian (possibly one of you) who absolutely schooled me on how vital Lend Lease was to the Soviet war effort. If they could see it so well, why didn't they bombard those installations with some of their superguns? Fear of English air attacks? I mean, the krauts had guns like this all the way through the war.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:22
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Grand Prize Winner posted:If they could see it so well, why didn't they bombard those installations with some of their superguns? Fear of English air attacks? They did but blowing up radar pylons is hard due to their construction. Unless you hit them dead on you won't do any damage. And the British made the point of getting a replacement up ASAP so as to make it look like it was impossible to knock a hole in the coverage. It got to the point that Goering called off raids on british radar stations as they were costing more to knock out than was viable.
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Jan 16, 2016 00:40
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Nenonen posted:swamp mongols I've never been to Finland, but if I ever come around, I will keep this phrase in mind. You could also elaborate a little more?
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Jan 16, 2016 06:57
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JaucheCharly posted:I've never been to Finland, but if I ever come around, I will keep this phrase in mind. You could also elaborate a little more? Like Hungarians, the Finns come from Finno-Ugric stock, which is why their languages are gibberish. I assume the F-Us came from rhe general direction of Asia.
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Jan 16, 2016 07:16
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