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rocketrobot
Jul 11, 2003



Schwarzwald posted:

I appreciate V's extremely good burn.

Vapor burn > Ice burn

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MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003





Old Kentucky Shark posted:

Could be a Chekhov's gun: the 3e version of Wind Walk lasts 1 hour per level, during which time you can fly at 60mph by changing from gaseous to physical form and back again at will. It's basically "Hey, did everyone ever want to be superheroes all day long?" the spell.

Wait, per level for the caster or the user?

If it's the user, Minrah will lose it way before the others...

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Caster. It will last most of a day.

Taciturn Tactician
Jan 26, 2011

The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation


Lipstick Apathy

"most" of my stuff, huh? Is Felix storing stuff in the astral plane now?

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.




Taciturn Tactician posted:

"most" of my stuff, huh? Is Felix storing stuff in the astral plane now?

Bags of holding have pocket dimensions, not prime material.

Taciturn Tactician
Jan 26, 2011

The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation


Lipstick Apathy

ikanreed posted:

Bags of holding have pocket dimensions, not prime material.

I'm pretty sure that the complete destruction of the world would probably destroy the bags of holding and make the items within lost forever, even if Felix doesn't know that the snarl probably would destroy the pocket dimensions.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

I wonder if some 4-quiddy proto-race could have hide in some kind of ultra protected bunker like the Halo Forerunners to wait for things to be safe.

IMJack
Apr 16, 2003

Royalty is a continuous ripping and tearing motion.



Fun Shoe

I mean isn't that what Xykon is trying to do with his astral plane fortress/final dungeon?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

IMJack posted:

I mean isn't that what Xykon is trying to do with his astral plane fortress/final dungeon?

I think that's to keep it safe from adventurers. I don't think he expects it to be safe if the gods unmake the world; but I could accept the premise that there is a way for a Sufficiently Advanced Fantasy Race to perhaps avoid the unmaking of reality; I just suspect that Xykon's action probably won't be enough to save him.

Kerning Chameleon
Apr 8, 2015
Probation
Can't post for 9 days!


Raenir Salazar posted:

I think that's to keep it safe from adventurers. I don't think he expects it to be safe if the gods unmake the world; but I could accept the premise that there is a way for a Sufficiently Advanced Fantasy Race to perhaps avoid the unmaking of reality; I just suspect that Xykon's action probably won't be enough to save him.

Won't stop him from trying when the Snarl hits the fan, though.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Liches mostly get the 'big bad' treatment in dnd but like... their motives are generally a direct opposition to the forces of entropy and casual destruction inherent in the universe. Usually, after they're done shedding their lingering humanity which can take a couple of lifetimes but after that they tend to transition into a sort've fantastical artificial intelligence whose only goal is knowing everything and self preservation forever at any cost.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

It varies. The Demilich in Neverwinter Nights 2 wanted to become a demigod, which probably increased the amount of net suck in the world if it was allowed. Sasz Tam in whatever Mageocracy land he was ruling was also up to no good at various times; but there were also liches as you say, are basically just AI after a while and are even useful servants for the god of magic and so on.

Then you have the positive energy liches the Elves use, because it's actually kinda useful to have your great great great great ancestor around to ask for advice and then shove them back to guard the treasure vault when you're done.

Whybird
Aug 2, 2009


Nap Ghost

Raenir Salazar posted:

Then you have the positive energy liches the Elves use, because it's actually kinda useful to have your great great great great ancestor around to ask for advice and then shove them back to guard the treasure vault when you're done.

That in and of itself is a fascinating concept that we never see properly explored. I can't imagine somebody with the political and arcane influence to become an immortal undying spirit of pure energy is going to be satisfied with just hanging around in a box and being occasionally called upon for a bit of a natter; nor would the people who grew up listening to the stories of their heroism.

Like, if Congress had somehow managed to preserve George Washington's soul in a jar somewhere you can absolutely guarantee there'd be people arguing for him to be put back in charge, and numerous reasons why that would be a really bad idea, even with the best of intentions.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



'turns out people from two hundred years ago were just... even the most 'enlightened', intensely racist and stupid'

violent sex idiot
Mar 24, 2007

O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight


Pillbug

isnt a immortal good being powered by positive energy just like, a elf cleric? why the gently caress would elfs need a lich

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Wow that actually blew my mind a little

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



violent sex idiot posted:

isnt a immortal good being powered by positive energy just like, a elf cleric? why the gently caress would elfs need a lich

Well, elves can still be killed. A good lich is basically a force ghost.

I could definitely imagine the process requiring you to attain the sort of enlightened oneness in the universe that would let you peacefully meditate in your mountain shrine for decades while you wait for heroes to swing by looking for wisdom.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.




Baelnorns are a dumb concept that the natural forces of "what if" demanded be created

Parahexavoctal
Oct 10, 2004
I AM NOT BEING PAID TO CORRECT OTHER PEOPLE'S POSTS.

Whybird posted:

That in and of itself is a fascinating concept that we never see properly explored. I can't imagine somebody with the political and arcane influence to become an immortal undying spirit of pure energy is going to be satisfied with just hanging around in a box and being occasionally called upon for a bit of a natter; nor would the people who grew up listening to the stories of their heroism.

Like, if Congress had somehow managed to preserve George Washington's soul in a jar somewhere you can absolutely guarantee there'd be people arguing for him to be put back in charge, and numerous reasons why that would be a really bad idea, even with the best of intentions.

https://subterraneanpress.com/magaz...indow_by_rache/

Capfalcon
Apr 6, 2012

No Boots on the Ground,
Puny Mortals!



ikanreed posted:

Baelnorns are a dumb concept that the natural forces of "what if" demanded be created

Counterpoint: Force Ghosts in D&D are cool.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


Force Ghosts on the Sword Coast, a level 6-9 adventure on dmsguild

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Whybird posted:

That in and of itself is a fascinating concept that we never see properly explored. I can't imagine somebody with the political and arcane influence to become an immortal undying spirit of pure energy is going to be satisfied with just hanging around in a box and being occasionally called upon for a bit of a natter; nor would the people who grew up listening to the stories of their heroism.

Like, if Congress had somehow managed to preserve George Washington's soul in a jar somewhere you can absolutely guarantee there'd be people arguing for him to be put back in charge, and numerous reasons why that would be a really bad idea, even with the best of intentions.

That kinda reminds me of Doctor Who, where Rassilon was somehow the keeper of his own crypt for eons before he got brought back to be president again after the Time War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7WRrmTcUGg

As opposed to the Daleks' take on immortality.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

Whybird posted:

That in and of itself is a fascinating concept that we never see properly explored. I can't imagine somebody with the political and arcane influence to become an immortal undying spirit of pure energy is going to be satisfied with just hanging around in a box and being occasionally called upon for a bit of a natter; nor would the people who grew up listening to the stories of their heroism.

Like, if Congress had somehow managed to preserve George Washington's soul in a jar somewhere you can absolutely guarantee there'd be people arguing for him to be put back in charge, and numerous reasons why that would be a really bad idea, even with the best of intentions.

I think a couple of things need to be considered.

1. Culture. In a way you're retired. You're just chilling in a vault, whether it is out of a sense of duty, or you are bound and contractually obligated to do so, or as an expression of self-sacrifice for the sake of your descendents. Think Servants from the Fate/Type-Moon universe. They are basically baelnorns and their purpose is being summoned to solve whatever problem plaguing modern day man.

2. Some baelnorns might actually be imprisoned. Think of how some Kings when they died have their closest servants entombed with them to serve them in the next life. Some baelnorns might have been resurrected ancestors pressed into service, and would prefer not be there but there's no other choice because of powerful geas's.

3. The implication of positive energy is you're Good aligned. And as an Elf you're likely Lawful. So some combination of 1 or 2 where the very process of being a baelnorn arises from an ardous process that self selects specifically for that role. You are sacrificing your freedom and most of your own selfish desires to enter into eternal servitude for the destiny of your House and future descendents in exchange for eternal life and the oppurtunity to acquire more knowledge and wisdom; a sort of more individual version of a genus loci.

We're supposed to think of them as being like the Superintelligent AI from Halo. They can do all sorts of fancy things but aren't really people anymore and exist to serve.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011





Muldoon

You come across a Baelnorn in Icewind Dale. He accidentally the entire population of elves in his domain with a big ol' spell and has gone mad with grief and isolation, so when you encounter him he's throwing fireballs at squirrels and blowing up staircases because he thinks everything is a dwarf come to assassinate him. When you managed to shock him back to sanity, he decides that his immortality is a fitting punishment for his hubris, and decides that his restitution is to continue to guard the old ruin in which you find him.

I think when I first read about them in some source book of wiki way back, it mentioned that the process of willingly becoming a baelnorn was as strenuous as that of becoming a lich, except instead of big spell slots and expensive components, you had to do a bunch of meditation and rituals. Either way, the posting seems to come with a preternatural disposition towards living the rest of your eternal life as a sort of mountain hermit.

Soup du Jour
Sep 8, 2011

I always knew I'd die with a headache.


The Ebberon rationale for the elves creating the Undying was that elves live for like 700 years and would be even worse than humans at letting go and handling death, which I find pretty compelling.

Gynovore
Jun 17, 2009

Forget your RoboCoX or your StickyCoX or your EvilCoX, MY CoX has Blinking Bewbs!

WHY IS THIS GAME DEAD?!

But Xykon doesn't know about the Snarl, right?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

Gynovore posted:

But Xykon doesn't know about the Snarl, right?

I'm sure he does, that's the whole plan as far as he understands it. Using the gate to threaten the gods ??? ruling the planet as an evil overlord or something.

PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Soup du Jour posted:

The Ebberon rationale for the elves creating the Undying was that elves live for like 700 years and would be even worse than humans at letting go and handling death, which I find pretty compelling.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Zulily Zoetrope posted:

I think when I first read about them in some source book of wiki way back, it mentioned that the process of willingly becoming a baelnorn was as strenuous as that of becoming a lich, except instead of big spell slots and expensive components, you had to do a bunch of meditation and rituals. Either way, the posting seems to come with a preternatural disposition towards living the rest of your eternal life as a sort of mountain hermit.

I'm now imagining that it's like the self-mummification of Buddhist monks.

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...



Gynovore posted:

But Xykon doesn't know about the Snarl, right?

He knows it exists and has some suspicion that Redcloak isn't really telling him everything but of all the people mucking around with the Snarl he does know the least.

Taciturn Tactician
Jan 26, 2011

The secret to good health is a balanced diet and unstable healing radiation


Lipstick Apathy

Raenir Salazar posted:

I think a couple of things need to be considered.

1. Culture. In a way you're retired. You're just chilling in a vault, whether it is out of a sense of duty, or you are bound and contractually obligated to do so, or as an expression of self-sacrifice for the sake of your descendents. Think Servants from the Fate/Type-Moon universe. They are basically baelnorns and their purpose is being summoned to solve whatever problem plaguing modern day man.

Servants (or more accurately, heroic spirits) don't have the same kind of continuity of consciousness as a lich and presumably a baelnorn. The throne of heroes where they reside it outside of linear time, and they don't tend to form memories when they're summoned as servants that last beyond that specific summoning (although there are tons of exceptions). A heroic spirit doesn't really have the time to get bored in the same way a baelnorn could.

Sky Shadowing
Feb 13, 2012

At least we're not the Thalmor (yet)


Dunmer in Elder Scrolls have massive hatred for necromancy EXCEPT for the ritual forms practiced by their religion. Being raised as a Bonewalker (zombie) is done for either two reasons: either the dead was so revered that it's done as a form of veneration (i.e., "nobody is greater to guard our tomb), or because the dead was a fuckup who needs to make it up to his family through service.

That said I'm not entirely sure if it's ever clarified anywhere if the soul is actually entombed within the body, or if it's just a walking magically animated bag of bones and damage strength spells.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

Taciturn Tactician posted:

Servants (or more accurately, heroic spirits) don't have the same kind of continuity of consciousness as a lich and presumably a baelnorn. The throne of heroes where they reside it outside of linear time, and they don't tend to form memories when they're summoned as servants that last beyond that specific summoning (although there are tons of exceptions). A heroic spirit doesn't really have the time to get bored in the same way a baelnorn could.

Except when they do, like in FGO... The specifics of the magic system in the TM universe aren't really relevant to my usage of them (Especially because there are so many exceptions and special cases), it's merely to provide contextualization as to why someone would be a baelnorn, or why a baelnorn may exist. One of many equally plausible and most importantly, reasonably sensible rationals is that they could exist as a sort of "Break glass in case of" failsafe and various circumstances have aligned to insure they are cooperative for those goals. The idea of an immortal being who exist to bail their modern descendent chestnuts out of the fire is strongly analogous to the purpose of Servants, it doesn't mean I am claiming they are exactly like Servants. I don't think boredom really is something we can understand in terms of how a magical being sense time; and besides, lots of people do boring things, going to a job 5 days a week for 8 hours a day, or being a palace guard standing still. Pretty boring, but people do it. And for all we know, the baelnorn Elminster hung out with in the Myth Drannor book was dormant until he arrived.

To further elaborate, as an example, cultural bonds or TRADITION are just one such means of manipulating the motivations of people, it could be the case there is an elf society in which being a baelnorn is like being a household god, and is super prestigious, who wouldn't want to be a baelnorn? So much family honour is at stake, etc. And it can motivate people to overcome an infinite amount of personal hardship or unpleasantness. The elf equivalent of being a salaryman at the end of the day. You do it because it's unthinkable to not do it.

Zulily Zoetrope
Jun 1, 2011





Muldoon

Clarste posted:

I'm now imagining that it's like the self-mummification of Buddhist monks.

Oh poo poo, that's exactly what I was thinking, but I forget what the latter was called. Cheers.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012


Soiled Meat

ikanreed posted:

Baelnorns are a dumb concept that the natural forces of "what if" demanded be created

Sacred necromancy is very cool and underexplored actually

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


fool of sound posted:

Sacred necromancy is very cool and underexplored actually

Yeah, Iíve tossed around ideas of a heroic necromancer character who actually acts super-respectfully to the dead he raises. Like, he explicitly asks their spirit for permission before he does it... Even when itís in the middle of battle, and releases them afterwards unless they ask to stay. He also goes on the hunt for your bog-standard necromancers who are only doing it for selfish reasons, which he considers a perversion/heresy of the One True Way of it.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT MY LOVE OF EUGENICS AND MARIO 3


College Slice

Regalingualius posted:

Yeah, Iíve tossed around ideas of a heroic necromancer character who actually acts super-respectfully to the dead he raises. Like, he explicitly asks their spirit for permission before he does it... Even when itís in the middle of battle, and releases them afterwards unless they ask to stay. He also goes on the hunt for your bog-standard necromancers who are only doing it for selfish reasons, which he considers a perversion/heresy of the One True Way of it.

This is IIRC, partly the lore behind Necromancers in the Diablo series.

fool of sound
Oct 10, 2012


Soiled Meat

Sacred necromancy is a major thing across a lot of real world religious traditions. Almost any that have some form of ancestor veneration. Necromancy largely gets a bad rap in fantasy cause of the Witch of Endor.

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


loving Ewoks ruin everything

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PMush Perfect
Sep 30, 2009

MY PAPER SOLDIERS
FORM A WALL
FIVE PACES THICK
AND TWICE AS TALL




Ghost martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, attack!

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