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It's also very difficult to clean up, much more so than oil
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May 18, 2023 22:34
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I'm guessing this stems from political pressure: https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/05/5cdd9c141a9e-4-major-japanese-motorcycle-makers-to-jointly-develop-hydrogen-engines.html
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May 19, 2023 02:28
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What a tremendous waste of time and energy
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May 19, 2023 02:31
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T Zero posted:I'm guessing this stems from political pressure: Yeah, basically. The same type of political pressure that led European carmakers (the Germans especially) to focus development on diesels. While the rest of the world wonders how it's supposed to work over here when we have nearly zero hydrogen infrastructure, Japan (and South Korea it looks like as well) are going all in on domestic hydrogen. They'll keep selling ICE/hybrids/EVs to the rest of us, but if they want to sell vehicles in their home market, they're going to need hydrogen options.
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May 19, 2023 02:49
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epswing posted:The local HD dealership's service dept is not busy enough, looks like they want to work on some expensive wrecks. I would do the poo poo out of this.
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May 19, 2023 03:17
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Finger Prince posted:They'll keep selling ICE/hybrids/EVs to the rest of us, There's a lot of debate about exactly what's going on with Japanese auto makers right now. Some think that since they make the "best" little ICE engines, they're loathe to give up the one thing they excel at to move into EVs. Others think that since Japanese consumers generally don't have a way to charge their cars, the JDM market is making them blind to what's possible in US and Europe. Finally, there's some that think they're getting orders from on high in the Japanese government to make hydrogen happen, I don't really know much about this angle though. From a tech side hydrogen autos don't really make sense. The advantage is quick refill but there's three major strikes against them in terms of low energy density, atrocious energy losses in making/compressing the hydrogen, and lastly the lack of hydrogen infrastructure. These would also apply to hydrogen motorcycles. EV fans are watching the Japanese auto makers with some mix of pity, curiosity, and schadenfreude as they head into what appears to be a dead end.
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May 19, 2023 03:21
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Yeah I think people don't really parse how catastrophic it is that the first electric motorbike from a mainstream brand was a loving Harley I like Harleys but they should NOT have been the first to do it, not even close, and if they're able to make a decent electric then loving Honda should be blowing them into the weeds but it just isn't happening and there's nothing on the horizon to indicate it ever will
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May 19, 2023 03:24
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Ulf posted:They're actually notably absent from the EV game. The Koreans are hedging their bets on EVs but are definitely developing hydrogen. I'm sure there's geopolitical stuff going on too. But I really don't put much stock in the general western idea that "they're doing it wrong". Again I come back to diesels. Nobody said the Germans were doing it wrong even though diesel infrastructure (especially low sulfur) and consumer attitudes in the US made it so German companies had to have an entirely separate line of gas engines to serve the US market. Some small percentage of car buyers even bemoaned the lack of those lovely, stinky, particulate spewing, slow revving rattle boxes. It worked in Europe because those jurisdictions made it work. They polished that turd until it shone. So why wouldn't hydrogen engines work in Japan if they made it work?
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May 19, 2023 03:40
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I won’t say it’s impossible. I had a long technical screed here but deleted it. There’s a long list of things to “solve” with hydrogen automobiles as it currently stands, with no proof that the problems are solvable, and I am not sure even the combined effort of every Japanese automaker will make enough of a dent in the problem to catch up with already-working ICE and EV solutions. Fair point about not assuming I know what’s best for other nations and their automakers but I’m going to keep  ’ing at the Japanese auto industry as it seems set to spend two decades steering into an iceberg.
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May 19, 2023 04:16
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Ulf posted:I had a long technical screed here but deleted it. Wtf why
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May 19, 2023 04:33
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Kawasaki did show off a couple EV prototypes last year but yeah agreed I wish they weren't softpedalling it E: Japan is a great place to start working out the bugs of transitioning a populace used to gasoline over to hydrogen handling procedures, because it's an ocean and a mountain range away from me Phy fucked around with this message at 05:40 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 05:26
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Slavvy posted:Wtf why It’s just not the place for it. I don’t believe hydrogen will be relevant for motorcycles in my lifetime (vs trucking, shipping, aviation, and maybe autos, all of which are more likely to use it). Anyway it’d just be a repeat of what hydrogen skeptics write up regularly in EV or energy circles. To give you a taste: if you want “green” hydrogen (to compare 1:1 against EVs), you’re going to make it using electrolysis, which means you lose about 40% of your energy in step one. Compressing the hydrogen to get it into a vehicle is going to take away another 20-30% on top of that!
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May 19, 2023 05:29
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Hydrogen is a huge pain in the rear end as an automotive fuel because there is no good way to store it in pure form at a useful density. You either have to compress it to 10,000 psi and ride around with a carbon fiber pipe bomb between your legs (that still has fairly pitiful range), or put it in a cryogenic tank with a ton of bulky heavy insulation that is not suitable for motorcycle packaging (and it'll still boil off and disappear over a couple of weeks, as is the case with current fuel cell cars). I am not convinced that pure hydrogen will ever be a valuable everyday motor fuel. The physics doesn't make sense. An extremely good way of storing hydrogen, on the other hand, is chemically bonding it to carbon, so that it turns into a relatively benign and easily handled liquid at atmospheric temperature and pressure. You can obviously extract the energy by burning it, but there are also advances being made on direct-hydrocarbon fuel cells (usually methanol or ethanol based) that can convert the fuel directly into electricity while emitting water and CO2. Using a fuel cell and electric motor instead of a combustion engine instantly gets you like a 50% efficiency bonus, and the carbon problem could be handled with a combination of capture at the cell and carbon-neutral generation of methanol, say from fermentation. My dream future bike power system would be a small methanol fuel cell maintaining a small lithium battery pack driving an electric motor. The fuel cell output only needs to be a little more than what's needed for cruise, which is like 10% of maximum power, and the battery only needs to be large enough to handle acceleration bursts in between cruise and regen cycles. Perfect. (Also honestly batteries are improving so fast that it does seem like fueled vehicles, in everyday average personal use, may be reaching a dead end. Now that you can get a couple hundred miles of range and quick recharging out of a relatively affordable BEV, the ability to recharge literally anywhere there is civilization is a major advantage over fuel that needs its own transport and dispensing infrastructure). Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 06:26 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 06:20
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Re: Diesel Diesel cars actually made sense in Europe for a long time. The raw fuel cost was considerably less than gasoline. Before covid, gasoline would be €1,75 per liter with diesel being €1,40 or so. It is a lower grade fuel. Aside from that, the 2000s and 2010s era turbodiesels for cars were extremely fuel efficient. So you have a double whammy of operating cost reduction. It really was a huge difference. It wasn't until fairly recently that turbo gasoline engines have come very close to the efficiency of diesels negating the fuel efficiency part, and by now diesel is pretty much exactly as expensive as gasoline negating that benefit. The fact that the diesel manufacturers can't cheat anymore, lowering NO[x] emissions at the cost of worse efficiency, doesn't help. Meanwhile, the vehicle ownership tax on diesels here is at least twice that of a gasoline, so unless you do like 50.000km a year, or operate a semi truck or other commercial vehicle that has a different tax structure, diesels don't make sense anymore. From an environmental point of view - because of their fuel efficiency they emit less CO2. However, we all know what went down for the rest of the emissions criteria. Re: hydrogen sometimes it seems like they're hoping to burn hydrogen in conventional engines. Which is a fun option but truly staggeringly inefficient. Still, let them develop it, perhaps it'll be a way to keep our old stuff running with minor modifications in the grand scheme of things. I do think there might be a place for hydrogen electric vehicles in the long distance trucking world. Though perhaps swappable batteries would make more sense. We have standardized shipping containers and many trucks run one of only a handful of different engines. Standardizing on a battery type seems doable. That way you enable slow charging which increases battery lifespan and decreases demands on infrastructure. LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 10:24 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 10:17
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Sagebrush posted:My dream future bike power system would be a small methanol fuel cell maintaining a small lithium battery pack driving an electric motor. The fuel cell output only needs to be a little more than what's needed for cruise, which is like 10% of maximum power, and the battery only needs to be large enough to handle acceleration bursts in between cruise and regen cycles. Perfect. This plus the ability to make said methanol in my back yard sounds 
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May 19, 2023 19:23
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my dream setup is a micro turbine (yes yes i know, cube law, can't really make them that small) spinning a genset charging a battery pack that powers motors
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May 19, 2023 19:44
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Jonny 290 posted:my dream setup is a micro turbine (yes yes i know, cube law, can't really make them that small) spinning a genset charging a battery pack that powers motors I mean, you could just buy a 15kW turboshaft meant for rc planes/helicopters off the shelf and build it, it would rule. Specs say lots of crazy things including 550ml of fuel burn a minute at full power, 25 hour service interval and a weight of 4.4 kg.  http://modelaircraftcompany.com/newshop/en/home/91-jetcat-spt15-rx-turbo-prop-helicopter.html
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May 19, 2023 20:24
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Invalido posted:, 25 hour service interval Better than modern mx bikes
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May 19, 2023 20:26
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Invalido posted:25 hour service interval and a weight of 4.4 kg 
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May 19, 2023 20:32
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What would a 'service' consist of on something like that?
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May 19, 2023 20:36
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I'm wildly guessing it's cleaning up products of incomplete combustion mostly? Jetcat sells a discounted first 25h service for 300 bucks, so it probably can't be super involved when everything is right.
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May 19, 2023 20:54
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Invalido posted:I mean, you could just buy a 15kW turboshaft meant for rc planes/helicopters off the shelf and build it, it would rule. Specs say lots of crazy things including 550ml of fuel burn a minute at full power, 25 hour service interval and a weight of 4.4 kg. This is one of those things that I have zero use for in life, but I'm glad it exists, and I want one.
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May 19, 2023 21:04
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Invalido posted:I'm wildly guessing it's cleaning up products of incomplete combustion mostly? Jetcat sells a discounted first 25h service for 300 bucks, so it probably can't be super involved when everything is right. a quick google suggests checking fan balance and replacing all the bearings too, plus any fan/compressor parts that got dinged up if the engine happened to eat a rock somehow
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May 19, 2023 21:54
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Sounds like an easy DIY to me
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May 19, 2023 21:58
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Idle speed on the gas generator is 33k and full load is 125k, cant imagine those bearings lasting very long.
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May 19, 2023 22:04
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Slavvy posted:Sounds like an easy DIY to me looks like it too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc3bkyk1PBc Nidhg00670000 posted:Idle speed on the gas generator is 33k and full load is 125k, cant imagine those bearings lasting very long. 125 000 is bananas. It looks like it's just regular bearings though, but I guess that 5% of lube mixed into the fuel is reaaaally important to get 25 hours out of them.
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May 19, 2023 22:17
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Suzuki will still sell you a DRZ400s in 2050 I assume.
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May 20, 2023 01:52
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I sorta see sodium ion batteries being the future. Lithium is rare. Sodium batteries can be nearly as energy dense. "Gearing" can be done in a BLDC motor controller by not trying to estimate engine load by current and back emf measurements. Some controllers support virtual "gears" which just triggers the electromagnets in the BLDC motor at slower rates with higher current use. It actually does work well at trading off top speed for torque. Weight savings can be had in bike frames and motors - alu instead of cromoly. They really gotta target the same price point IMO as gas powered bikes for them to catch on? I don't know, the federal government probably needs some sort of initiative for places to build charging stations everywhere. There are studies that say the grid is OK, adoption of EVs happen at a rate of planned grid capacity updates anyway - I don't know if I believe it. They can uprate some existing lines by installing braided cables to prevent power line sag, and run higher voltage down the lines. All sorts of weird tricks as recabling the entire country is prohibitively expensive. Hydrogen is OK, metal hydride storage is possibly a thing. I think we are kinda past that, though. Like how SEDs never came out and we got LCDs. SSH IT ZOMBIE fucked around with this message at 16:52 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 16:49
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Had a nice ride today, just some open roads with nice long curves qnd perfect weather. Wanted to do some stop drills at the end, but my go-to parking lot was occupied, which was kinda disappointing.
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May 26, 2023 20:35
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Just randomly, I have been in Europe (Amsterdam, Nice/Monaco, Northern Italy) for 2.5 weeks and it has definitely been weird to see the gear here. Obviously the majority of transport is scooter, but the fact that like no one wears anything beyond a helmet is sort of wild to me. I get that things aren’t really that fast in the cities here, but it still throws me off. People just in full suits with dress shoes and then lazily toss a helmet on to like go whereever they are going, work I assume.
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Jun 3, 2023 11:03
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TheBacon posted:People just in full suits with dress shoes and then lazily toss a helmet on to like go whereever they are going, work I assume. What do they do when it's raining?
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Jun 3, 2023 15:53
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FBS posted:What do they do when it's raining? Poncho.
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Jun 3, 2023 15:57
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TheBacon posted:People just in full suits with dress shoes and then lazily toss a helmet on to like go whereever they are going, work I assume. Tbh I see that a lot in Portland, too
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Jun 3, 2023 16:09
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It does feel like the level of risk is different over here from what people describe in the US. I'm not going to say the driving in Italy is actually "good", maybe less inattentive if still fast and impatient. When we go down to the lake in summer it's helmet and gloves but then just shorts and T-shirt, it would be a bit weird to get fully suited up.
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Jun 3, 2023 16:37
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FBS posted:What do they do when it's raining? I haven’t really experienced it yet. It has sprinkled a few times and people just seemed to carry on in normal clothes since stuff dried pretty fast after the shower stopped. There are a lot of little like leg zip things that seem to protect their legs and then when they park it zips up over the seat to protect the main area and seat from water. knox_harrington posted:It does feel like the level of risk is different over here from what people describe in the US. I'm not going to say the driving in Italy is actually "good", maybe less inattentive if still fast and impatient. It was definitely the same in Nice and Amsterdam fwiw, but also like I don’t know that anyone was going over 50kph at most? That’s like 25-30mph which is pretty slow for US roads. Most US surface streets are not residential or tight like europe so traffic moves at like 70-80kph as ‘slow city traffic’. TheBacon fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Jun 3, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2023 17:17
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Imo it is like bicycle helmets, you would think the correlation is that the more people who wear them, the fewer people die. But in reality the correlation is the less safe people feel, the more people wear them. Netherlands is iirc the safest place to cycle in the world, statistically, but it's also the place people wear helmets the least, because infrastructure, culture and driver training have a much bigger impact than whether or not you wear a helmet. There's probably something similar happening with scooter riders in Europe.
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Jun 3, 2023 20:37
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Risk is wildly disproportionate with speed. These stats are for pedestrians hit by the front of cars, but the chart I’m looking at says: code:
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Jun 3, 2023 21:42
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I saw a Vespa 125 with a guy and his girl on the highway today at 100km/h. Respectable speed for riding two up on an 125cc scoot. Girl was wearing leggings that were most definitely not motorcycle leggings. I hope her guy friend is a good rider...
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Jun 3, 2023 22:15
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Ulf posted:Risk is wildly disproportionate with speed. Lol this isn't relevant. What the gently caress?
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Jun 3, 2023 22:41
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knox_harrington posted:Lol this isn't relevant. What the gently caress? I think it was trying to illustrate that fatalities/danger escalates exponentially with speed, so that someone only ever going 30mph tops on scooter is a different ballpark of potential injuries than someone going 65+ mph
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Jun 3, 2023 22:47
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