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I wasn’t sure where else to ask this so I thought I’d try here: my wife and I are buying a house ( in Phoenix) and the inspector found that it was originally plumbed with polybutylene. It looks like it used the copper fittings with copper crimp bands. They must have had a leak at some point though because they’d run a few lines of copper to the master bedroom via the attic, but the rest probably have the original polybutylene. I’m having a plumber give a cost estimate to replumb the rest before our inspection period ends. We love the house, location, etc, so we’re moving forward is it, but how difficult and such is it to replumb a single story via the attic? The only part that makes me nervous is that the kitchen sink and dishwasher are on an island so I’m thinking they’ll have to cut the slab to do it? As it is, I’m going to have an automatic water shutoff installed on the main line coming in to protect the house from a burst polybutylene line until we’d want to replumb. At the moment I’m thinking either copper or PEX.
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Mar 31, 2019 21:10
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DrBouvenstein posted:It definitely wasn't mold. Not remotely slimy, hard and crunchy...like, literally felt like charcoal. Not squishy like I'd expect a gasket to be, though I suppose an old one might get like that? But isn't that usually why happens to old dried up rubber, not rubber that's sitting in water? Did you say the sink itself is new, or new-er? Depending on the chlorine levels of your city water and how they're dosing, it could be that the internal synthetic rubber materials in the sink supply lines are being dissolved slowly due to some interaction that is occurring. Out of curiosity, when you let it sit for awhile (aka days), and then turn it on, did you see quite a bit of air coming out at first?
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Sep 23, 2019 23:58
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DrBouvenstein posted:The faucet was brand new, that occurred shortly after installing. If you've only noticed this deposit/residue at this sink and nowhere else, then my money would be on potential breakdown of the sink's supply line flexible material due to some interaction with chlorine, chloramine, or another treatment process chemical. I've seen 3/8" thick SBR hoses blow out due to weak sodium hypochlorite exposure, so it wouldn't be unheard of depending on what those hoses are made out of, especially given the configuration of the supply connections with the copper pipes.
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Sep 24, 2019 00:21
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DrBouvenstein posted:The supply lines are also brand new. They came with the faucet. Yeah, that's my point. There's several types of primary "synthetic rubber" materials, and not all of them play nicely with what's present in municipal water. It's also possibly that the supply lines were simply not flushed suitably after they were manufactured and that task fell to you. If it flushed out fully and you don't see it anymore, that was probably just the case. If you see it continue to build up going forward though, then the hose inside the flex supply is deteriorating.
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Sep 24, 2019 04:23
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I'm not going to lie, directly burying PEX makes me nervous for some reason, similar to how everyone who uses PEX here in Phoenix seems to route it through attics that hit 140-degs or more during the summer. In the home we bought earlier this year, you can find all of the old poly-B in the attic that seemingly was completely replaced with copper, but they left it (due to the cost?), and looking at old videos that showed it as being somewhat flexible, and seeing the stuff in my attic essentially acting like a more-brittle version of PVC, makes me wonder how well PEX will hold up in certain environments long-term as the plasticizers off-gas.
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Oct 31, 2019 07:31
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HelloSailorSign posted:The local water supply is having issues with increased levels of heavy metals, high pH, and agricultural runoff (to name the major ones). The city has tried some mitigating things in the past few years but the issue persists. With the potentially wrong assumption that you're in the US, are we talking about levels that are exceeding the MCLs or the secondary standards?
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Nov 23, 2019 06:46
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H110Hawk posted:The first is one of those things is not good in any amount. Yeah, but if they’re continuing to exceed it, then they’re in violation of the SWDA. HelloSailorSign, has there been talk about the public utility implementing measures to bring the concentration below the MCL? Because chromium MCL violations are the type of violation that usually gets media called, lawmakers on the defensive, etc. Iron and manganese do not count as heavy metals, and so they’re SMCL levels can’t be enforced by law.
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Nov 24, 2019 23:46
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HelloSailorSign posted:Okay, so I've pulled a few years of Annual Water Quality reports. Were the 2014-2016 results greater than 0.1 mg/L (0.1 ppm)? This is the current Federal MCL for Total Chromium, so whether -6, -3, etc., ultimately they'd need to be under it. The "SS-#" is most likely referring to "Sampling Station", as the EPA requires so many per given area of distribution zone/area for a public water system. They could have online analyzers measuring and reporting back and/or simply having staff do grab samples at those locations. They'd use their treated surface water to both reduce the dependency on the wells that are having issues, but also to blend at wells that are active but high in chromium. This is where it can be a little misleading, but publicly, they may have to indicate what a well "site" is producing water quality-wise, but it can be the blended rate leaving the site, and not what the actual well is doing. From a public health perspective it doesn't really matter, since what's leaving the site is what is going into distribution, but the well itself may still be high in chromium. It sounds like in 2018, someone wised up to the fact that they only needed to report Total Chromium, which isn't "as bad" as reporting it as Chromium 6, since Chromium 6 is pretty much mostly due to human causes, but other chromium ions can be naturally occurring. In all likelihood, as you already noticed/assumed, the numbers you're seeing in 2018 and going forward, are most likely Chromium 6 levels regardless of how they're defining it. Note that some states, like California, have set their own MCLs beyond what the EPA mandates, and California has both their own separate MCLs for Chromium 6 (at 1/10th the US EPA level), and Total Chromium (1/2 the US EPA), so that's what the water service has to meet regardless of the US EPA MCL. The frustrating thing is that if you're not in California, you're pretty much at the mercy of the 100 ppm MCL in most places, which in the case of Chromium 6, yeah, it's not good if it's anywhere near that.
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Nov 28, 2019 07:16
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HelloSailorSign posted:Luckily no, the highest one is at 0.04 ppm, the next two high wells are only near there half the year That's still pretty high (by California standards), but it's not something most could probably do anything about at the moment, at least with regard to SWDA issues. The best approach is probably to publicly call it out and such, since someone/thing nearby is causing it, and no-one likes bad media attention. mcgreenvegtables posted:I am planning to redo some of the plumbing in my house and, among other things, replace some copper lines in the basement that run below the ceiling and instead have new PEX running across and between ceiling joists. A few questions: I'm not sure having a 1" exposed line is better than a 3/4" for freeze protection; if anything, you'd be looking at a trade-off between the greater surface area of the pipe allowing more exposed surface to freezing, against a larger SA of water to have to freeze. Regarding the pipe size, it's not uncommon to have a larger size between meter and entry to residence, especially when the meter size is less than the service branch size from the local main to the meter, since it's essentially used to help "recover" the loss in head due to the meter. A lot of times they'd run one size larger from meter to where the service line splits for the WH and continued cold water service, and after that split, downsize back down to the initial service branch size. Also, why do you need to go through any joists with PEX? It should be flexible enough to allow you to go under vs. through, and there are clamps you could use for this.
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Dec 1, 2019 22:24
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HelloSailorSign posted:That’s part of why I am thinking about house water purification, as I’m still not convinced the city will take appropriate action. Reverse osmosis was just something that popped up that I wanted more information on. I mean, depending on how much stress it's causing you, yeah, you could do a whole home filtration system with some type of NSF-53 activated carbon unit(s), and then do NSF-58 certified RO for say the kitchen sink (or a drinking water spigot next to the sink), and possibly a branch line off to another source such as a refrigerator ice maker/water dispenser.
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Dec 2, 2019 07:48
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DrBouvenstein posted:Probably because: Yeah, but I’d rather drop the ceiling 3” than go through joists.
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Dec 2, 2019 19:03
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Paul MaudDib posted:I'm looking to replace my toilets, looking at Menard's I'm noticing some variation in the size of the outlet hole in the floor. Is that correct, and if so how do I know what size outlet my existing toilets have so that I don't need things replumbed? I don’t think I saw a response, but your toilet might have the size of outlet or required wax ring cast into it somewhere that’s inconspicuous. If not and you don’t think you can get an approximate idea based on the size of what you visually see beneath the tank/toilet, then you’ll have to pop up the toilet slightly and measure/etc the opening.
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Dec 22, 2019 04:52
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vyst posted:I just need a sanity check. I live in Michigan and we recently had like 3 inches of rain in Saturday then minor snow and ice on Sunday, and its been warm enough for the snow to melt the past couple of days, definitely minor flooding in the yard. My sump pump has been running constantly ever since now i don't know how long it's been running each session but it feels like a long time. The basin still has water in it about maybe 20% or so of the way up. Before this it would operate sporadically as it probably should Sounds like it's working normally. All of that water (rain, melted snow/ice, etc.), has probably mostly saturated the immediate area, and if temperatures are still fairly cool and not a lot of sunlight (?), it's going to take some time for that water to perc, and your near-constantly dewatered sump represents the lowest headless path for water being drained via gravity/released from pore pressure. Also, quality/well designed sump pumps are designed for wet and near-dry operation, so running regularly shouldn't be an issue, and minimizing cycling can actually be beneficial. Usually it'll have a low level cutoff switch/float that will shut it off once it drops below its minimum required submergence for operation, which is probably the small amount of water left in the sump that you're seeing.
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Jan 15, 2020 07:38
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PainterofCrap posted:I live in a sandy swamp. Seconding: Yours is working normally, & they can take it. You might be able to adjust the float some so that the sump has to fill more before it turns on. That'll help with the frequent start up.
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Jan 15, 2020 19:58
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So I'm hoping to maybe get some answers and input on what to do about my kitchen sink drainage. Yesterday the drain started backing up for both of them, so I'm pretty sure that there's a blockage in the p-trap or vertical riser beneath the tee. However, when we've done dishes, we've usually seen where suds/etc. will back up into the side that isn't actively being used regardless, even when it was otherwise draining well. My first thought was to simply pop off the p trap and clean it, which I plan to do tomorrow, but I'd kinda like to see if I could maybe improve the setup some. As you can see in the photos, the drain outlet itself is fairly high, so there's about 1 1/2" between the centerline of the disposal outlet and the drain wall penetration. It also doesn't help that currently the disposal discharge pipe actually slopes down from the tee to the disposal.   I picked one of those Snappy Trap kits (https://www.homedepot.com/p/SnappyT...wE&gclsrc=aw.ds) that has a flexible PVC (smooth interior) branch for each drain point and it connects into a wye that connects to the p-trap, but I'm second guessing that (haven't installed it yet). It actually said it needs 2" minimum between disposal centerline and drain. So at the moment, I'm thinking of maybe using a wye or long-sweep tee to get the disposal discharge connected per the image below, but I haven't been able to find a compression wye fitting. Is this a situation where I'd probably have to solvent on a couple of adapter segments to use it? Secondly, are the p-trap dimensions a code item generally and fixed in height/etc. for a given size, or could I get a longer radius p-trap so that I could get some slope down on the disposal drain as part of putting together a wye fitting install. 
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Jan 28, 2020 07:57
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Booley posted:There are almost certainly at least 2 90s inside the wall, that's an interior wall that's parallel to unit exterior walls. Could it maybe feed into bathroom plumbing? And you don't see any type of 90-deg bend outside anywhere nearby? The downward discharge is generally just at the very end when present, to direct any discharge directly to grade to avoid/minimize scalding to anyone who would be (unfortunately) nearby. Usually they'll plumb it so the 90-deg bend is as close to grade as possible, and the 6" min height is pretty typical. Also, if you're getting a plumber, just have them install copper. While CPVC is technically acceptable, you won't go wrong having the high pressure relief discharge via copper piping, at least for the segment(s) that are exposed. Nitrox posted:You need to hire a plumber because you live in a condo and I bet you dollars to donuts, you signed a contract that stipulates that. It's mandated by every condo insurance I've ever seen. Check with your association. Bad water heater install has potential for tens of thousands in immediate water damages. God help you if your installer isn't properly insured to handle that.
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Feb 26, 2020 08:11
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BubbaGrace posted:I know I'm probably too late for this but you want a slip joint tee, not a wye. We don't use ABS piping around these parts, but I am sure they make a comparable one like below for you. Thanks for the response! I was hoping to avoid a tee with the interior baffle because our current setup has a baffled tee, and it's pretty common for suds and sometimes water to back up into garbage disposal/connected sink (and often vice versa). Due to how it was installed by whoever remodeled it several years before we bought the house, the connection to the garbage disposal actually slopes down to the disposal from the slip joint tee, because the flipper shoved it together as fast as they could and didn't really give thought to it. My hope was to basically force the flow down via a full-diameter connection instead of the half size area that's present due to the baffled tee.
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Feb 26, 2020 08:16
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Motronic posted:Mine is an LG but basically the same layout/feature set which is what mattered to me. It replaced a side by side that fit in the same physical space, but somehow only held half as much, and made everything difficult to get at unless it was right up front.
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May 8, 2020 06:33
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Motronic posted:I take it you've had problems with it? It's inverter based - just like all energy efficient minisplits, etc. That is not at all unique to them, they just have a marketing term for it. This has nothing to do with it using an inverter, and everything with it being a poo poo design with poor manufacturing QC. For the first 3-5 years after they debuted the revised design for the current compressor, the poor QC and poor design resulted in the compressor failing within the first two years typically on a lot of units, but when it failed, debris can end up in the refrigerant line and ultimately cause further damage. LG's warranty was originally 10 years on the inverter, 1 year for labor, but they eventually had to update the labor to 5 years due to complaints and class action lawsuits against them and people having to pay significantly for repairs and/or wait extensive periods due to their poor certified/authorized service network. And when the units were repaired, it was typically with the same defective compressor, the refrigerant line wasn't purged/cleaned, and often the replacement compressor was a rebuilt used unit that at that point only carried a 90 day parts warranty. So yeah, "gently caress that poo poo".
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May 11, 2020 06:33
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I had originally posted my unintended shower remodel adventure in the Home Spergin thread, but I have a question that goes here. To make a long story short, we ended up having to tear out the poorly constructed tiled shower in the home we bought last year, and the shower remodeler told us we had to have a plumber replace the drain. We called a plumber out, and he ended up cutting the existing drain head off, and used one of those Fernco type rubber couplings with two steel clamping bands to secure a stub piece to the existing drain and extend it up for the tilers to cut/use. Something like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fernco-3-in-x-3-in-PVC-DWV-Mechanical-Flexible-Coupling-P1056-33/100372296 I can't help but feel like the original could have been removed and/or the new stubout somehow glued to the existing. They're going to do a concrete pan and such, but I'm just worried about long-term lifespan of the coupling.
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May 31, 2020 16:53
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Fire Storm posted:I have a slight sediment problem. The white filter is new, the orange/dirty one is less than 3 months old. Basic 20” x 2.5” pre-filter, well water, high iron, fair bit of sulfur, mid-Michigan (on a hill a quarter mile from a lake, like that matters) I don't think UV systems work well if there are iron or sulfur reducing bacteria in the flow stream. You may want to look at other options such as shocking the well or installing a greater GAC media system.
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Jun 25, 2020 06:38
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mcgreenvegtables posted:I am getting an irrigation system installed on my house in the next few weeks. Both companies I've had out said due to the grading of my property and placement of the valve I have the wrong kind of backflow preventer on the house and need to swap it for an RPZ backflow. I'm not sure if anyone answered this, but I'm not sure why you would need an RPZ unless there are going to be parts of your yard where the irrigation goes where the irrigation line(s) may be at an elevation equal or above the elevation of the poppet of that pressure vacuum breaker. Otherwise, most jurisdictions require 12" to 18" from maximum irrigation line centerline to the centerline of the PVB outlet. FWIW, a lot of landscapers like to put the flow control valve in a valve box that's slightly buried. They're also often used to the old atmospheric vacuum breakers, that look a little bit like a PVB. You're not supposed to have any valves downstream of an AVB, which is why a lot of landscapers will say that the "AVB" needs to be replaced with a RPZ BFP because they don't have experience with, or knowledge of the working differences, between an AVB and a PVB. PVBs can have valves downstream, but should not see any type of backpressure, hence where the RPZ BFP may be required if your irrigation setup would allow backpressure to occur.
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Sep 21, 2020 06:38
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angryrobots posted:You should get more quotes. The danger is actually that the surge that occurs when a quick-closing solenoid actuates, and the resulting water hammer, is causing damage wherever you have non-continuous piping, i.e. fittings, etc. It's especially worse if the piping is rigid, since semi-rigid and flexible tubing/piping can expand some and dampen the transient event, while hard piping will let the transient wave pass with relatively minor mitigation, since it's just the friction loss along the pipe walls and the loss of energy due to sudden momentum changes that slows it down, so it ends up pinging back and forth some until the energy has been dissipated. The main concern with appliance connections relates to poor quality of materials/construction of the flexible hoses used to connect appliances, and also degradation of the hose material due to chlorine/chloramine exposure, which is also why it's good to replace the hoses every 3-5 years at most. High pressure + small diameter result in the worst-case transient events for a home, so the larger the arterial piping in the house, the better off it will be. It's also useful to strategically place surge arrestors in locations, although those also end up having to be replaced every 1-2 years, so it's another maintenance item.
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Oct 29, 2020 06:21
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PageMaster posted:Talked with a plumber and the pros/cons came out to pex being easier and cheaper, but susceptible to rodents, and copper costing more but susceptible to our very hard and acidic water. It sounds like Pex of the way to go, the only other issue I found online is that we don't have a basement so a manifold (because really appeals to me) would have to go in the garage next to our water heater. Is that an issue? I read exposed pex is a problem if sunlight can reach it. Out of curiosity, what pH are they considering to be acidic? Because the normal pH range allowed for municipal systems is perfectly fine with copper. Hardness is probably the greater concern, but a lot of the plumbers where I live (Phoenix) have switched to recommending PEX, but it seems like it's mostly because it's a faster install and cheaper relative to copper.
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Mar 16, 2021 07:47
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brugroffil posted:Anyone with experience in treating sulfur and iron reducing bacteria in well water? Every place I look or company I ask has a different solution. I've only done a little bit of (municipal) well engineering related to sulfur and iron-reducing bacteria, but usually when it was encountered, we had to start a maintenance program of <x often> shocking of the well, and it will likely have to be maintained for the life of the well. About 50% of the time the clients just chose to eventually drill a new well and abandon the problematic one, but of course these are large production wells.
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Mar 18, 2021 00:20
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brugroffil posted:Thanks! I've been mainly suggested AIO3 or a chlorination system with carbon filter. Honestly, if you don't mind the upkeep and can pipe the drain to somewhere nearby, a whole-house RO would probably be the other way to go.
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Mar 19, 2021 05:46
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SpartanIvy posted:Maybe to get a better view of the water heater or something? Who knows what they could have touched or moved. Also, if they changed the hoses, the new hoses that the delivery company probably used may be shorter and/or have a smaller ID, which would also impact water hammer. The cheapest hoses might only have 1/4" effective ID and only be 5' long, but you can get 3/8" and 1/2" and up to 8' also at some stores, and in combination with the arrestors should help a lot. Yooper posted:My RO system will constantly run as well as constantly dump to drain. If I close the tank valve it stops running, but still dumps to drain. There doesn't look like a lot of poo poo to work with on this thing, anything I can check? What's the pressure from your well upstream of the RO unit? This sounds like either low upstream pressure or yeah, faulty check valve. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 08:05 on Mar 25, 2021 |
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Mar 25, 2021 07:57
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One of the nicest things about PEX is that, being flexible, it has anti-water hammer and thermal expansion/contraction characteristics. However, I still think it's best suited for specific climates and circumstances. Here in AZ, pretty much everyone is moving to PEX in new home construction, and if you have to do any re-pipes, plumbers are typically going to PEX also for the ease of installation. I still wonder long-term however what the impacts of low humidity and high temperatures in the attic will be, and I could see the plasticizers evaporating off over time and causing it to become brittle. It reminds me in a way of poly-B, and seeing videos of how flexible poly-B tubing was. My house was originally plumbed with it in 1994, and at some point was re-plumbed as copper (I'm guessing due to the lawsuits), but they left the poly-B in the attic when they did it, and it's amazing how rigid it is now compared to what you see in old videos of the stuff. Granted, it may not have been quite so bad if water had actually been flowing through it, but even then, I'd still be worried about the hot water lines and low humidity/high temps and plasticizer degradation. That's at least one major benefit of PEX - it doesn't have the susceptibility to disinfection treatments used, like chloramines, that other plastic piping have, and so at least the pipe/tubing material shouldn't break down internally over time.
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Mar 31, 2021 08:55
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B-Nasty posted:As I understand it, one of the major failure points for PB piping was the fittings. They were typically cheap plastic with a copper crimp ring, which... is the exact system used by many PEX installs. So PB piping's problems are multi-fold. The "first generation" of PB used plastic fittings with copper crimp rings or plastic compression rings, and it was often the plastic compression rings that would fail due to thermal expansion/contraction and cracking of the rings. However, over several years, depending on the method of disinfection treatment used by the PWS, the plastic fittings would begin to fail as you said and cause abrupt ruptures also. Copper crimp rings were far more likely to be used after the late 1970s/early 1980s, so it's typically why the plastic fittings are the primary source from these installs. In the 1980s, the PB industry realized they had a problem, and studies were done by 3rd parties showing the failure risks of the fittings, and so they switched to the copper fitting/copper crimp ring method for PB pipe ("second generation"). This eliminated the concern obviously about the plastic fittings, but it simply shifted the failure timeline from 5 - 10 years, to about 20-25 years. The reason for that is because it turns out that PB piping is susceptible to attack by free radicals from the disinfection process, and so depending on the specific method of disinfection used, the PB installations may only have gotten 10-15 years if something like chloramine was used, whereas you could probably see the 20-25+ years if typical chlorine gas or sodium hypochlorite was used. But even those methods still cause enough free radicals to attack the interior pipe wall over time, and so the installations still have an expiration point regardless of the fittings... Interestingly enough, PB with metal fittings is still used quite often in parts of Europe, because they have seen success with it in areas that use ozone disinfection instead of chlorine. Ozone doesn't maintain a long-lasting residual like chlorine does, but since the PWS are typically smaller, they can inject ozone and its residual is able to remain long enough to deliver water to customers, but it's not high enough to do any damage to the PB piping. Anyway, regarding PEX: it has much greater resistance to most chemicals compared to PB, so that is definitely in its favor. But PEX also has plasticizers used in it as all plastic piping does to some extent, and unless you can maintain ideal conditions for its installation, those plasticizers are going to break down over time. When they can install the PEX inside walls and make sure it has insulation and/or some level of climate control, then I think it'll serve well for a long, long time. When they're just running it through attics between the various taps, I worry that it might only have 30-40 years at the most, which is still probably multiple-owners timeframe, but definitely not copper's lifespan. Copper also has the benefit that it typically doesn't catastrophically fail like plastic piping does, but instead develops pinholes/etc. So you're trading significant house flooding usually for localized water damage and need to remediate mold/etc. Pick your poison I guess?
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Mar 31, 2021 18:17
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Zarin posted:I feel like the correct answer here is to figure out how to plumb a place where all the plumbing is routed behind easily-removable panels for maintenance access. I feel the same about electrical, as well. Yeah, we bought our house in 2019, and it was built in 1994 and used Poly-b. The house obviously had a major water damage event at some point given the extent of the remodeling, and seeing how they ran the Poly-B through the attic, it'd be no surprise that it'd cause a lot of damage when it failed, and ultimately they re-piped with copper through the attic. When we had our home inspection done, the home inspector actually confused Poly-B with PEX... but couldn't tell us whether the Poly-B was still in service. Once I got up in the attic I could knock on it and hear it was empty, but ultimately I spent some time after we moved in, trying to chase all the copper in the attic to make sure it all got replaced. The only wild card is that we have a kitchen island with sink and dishwasher - I'm hoping it was run as copper, but who knows... But yeah, in the attic I can at least see the majority of the copper lines, which makes it nice to work on them. I have to get back up and insulate them at some point. I agree with you though, it'd be nice if water lines, electrical, etc., were all more easily accessible. It seems like it shouldn't be that hard to figure out a convenient way to do a pipe/conduit chase in key areas for maintenance.
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Mar 31, 2021 19:05
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Bird in a Blender posted:I think your only option for material is copper. Plastic pipe doesn't like to be outside because of UV degradation. I think you have the right idea to just run it above ground and slope it downward so you can drain it. Typical slope is 1/4" per foot, so over a 15' run means you need to drop the pipe by 3.75". Keeping a consistent slope is important, you don't want to end up with any low or high points that could trap water. I don't know about where the OP lives, but a lot of places (including mine) have NSF-certified carbon steel pipe available at Home Depot/Lowes/etc., and usually in threaded options. That would make it a faster and much cheaper option to copper for what he's looking to use, and would give him the winterization factor too. Also, while plain white PVC will suffer significant UV degradation, putting a couple of coats of even a cheap paint will significantly improve it, to the point that as long as he paints the exposed portions every 3-5 years as the paint wears down, it'd be fine. Otherwise, the main limiting factor is ambient temperature and its impact on the operating pressure of PVC. Edit: Motronic posted:I get it, and I'm trying to come up with some way that this is possible. I think you said you ran a bunch of water because it was recommended so the only thing I can come up with is that this was gonna happen anyway the next time your washer was draining and you flushed a toilet at the same time. A lot of municipalities will run a line from a hydrant to the closest MH, popping the MH lid and terminating the hydrant hose right at the MH rim or just slightly within, with the idea being that there's enough of a drop to act as an air gap. They do this because no-one likes to just discharge hydrants to grade anymore during flushes, and depending on how long they're flushing for, it's nice to say that they "recycle" the flushing water... by putting it into the sewer, where it will go over to a wastewater plant and be treated. So I could absolutely believe that a hydrant flush could create enough turbulence to push materials back up the sanitary service lines that feed the MH. It's part of why most jurisdictional regulations disallow drop MHs except in very, very specific circumstances. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Apr 9, 2021 |
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Apr 9, 2021 16:29
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Motronic posted:TIL, I've never seen this anywhere around here. If they're not running to grade they run into the storm sewer, not the sanitary sewer. I don't see how there would be a "recycling" difference.....it's already clean treated water, it doesn't need to be treated again and all munis that I'm familiar with discharge treated water to the same places that the storm sewers discharge. This experience may be "living along a river" things. Plenty of places in the US will try to flush to sewer when possible vs. the storm drain, so I'm guessing you don't live in a state where drought comes up enough that state regulations/laws requires municipalities to account for more than a certain % of water loss, because usually a small % of "lost water" can be attributed to hydrant flushing under the justification that it was sent into the sewer system and not "lost". And often enough, when it's contractors doing pipeline/watermain flushing, they're often usually required to flush to sewer instead of grade because of the shear quantity of water involved. Sometimes they'll be allowed to put a meter on so the volume of water flushed can be recorded, if they want to flush to grade or the street, but most contractors just seem to opt to go to sewer since it's faster/cheaper than the permits and rental of the meter involve. So yes, that experience is definitely "living along a river", versus living in the western half of the US (outside of the PNW coastal areas). Bird in a Blender posted:Yea, you could paint the PVC, I didn't really think about that. I just reflexively think to never use PVC outside. I don't think I've ever seen someone use black carbon steel pipe for plumbing. I would imagine that would start rusting immediately unless you coat it. The CS pipe I've seen usually have a basic epoxy lining to help with internal corrosion resistance. We also have NSF-61 galvanized pipe available also here, but most seem to avoid it given the bad reputation galvanized earned.
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Apr 9, 2021 20:57
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melon cat posted:My city definitely has combined sewers. The infrastructure here is... notoriously messy. So based on what you (SourKraut) wrote up it is possible that the hydrant flush pushed the obstruction backwards into our main drainage pipe? Because I have a drain and sewage company coming to our house with a flush truck on Monday to blast the obstruction out from our drain. Any specific questions that I should be asking them to determine if this blockage and subsequent flooding had to do with the hydrant flushing? Any measures I can take to cover my rear end if it turns out the city's hydrant flushing WAS responsible for the flooding? Motronic already said it, but I mean, depending on how much stress and frustration you want to deal with, I would definitely consider getting a lawyer involved. At a minimum, save all correspondence you have, save the bills/invoice you receive, and prepare to cause them a headache. Depending on the expertise of the drain and sewer company you have coming out, I would tell you to spend tomorrow writing down your past observations/timeline, and then on Monday either talk to them (or a plumbing company) about what, if any, issues you had previously seen before the flush/flood date. Then, explain what the City did, what the City told you, and then what you did, and see what they say. If you hadn't had any draining issues before the flush/flood, definitely stress that to them. I legitimately think that if you can explain to them that you had no backup/flooding issues pre-flushing, that they'll simply assume 1+1 = 2 and say it's the City. Tell them upfront that, if they agree that it could have occurred due to the City's flushing actions, that you want it written down on the invoice you receive from them. And if they won't agree to that, then I would consider finding another firm to at least get a second opinion. After that, I would reach back out via email to the City and tell them that per the speciality firm you hired, they believe the backup was caused by the flushing activity that occurred, and that you want them to pay for the cost of services rendered and for any estimated repairs due to the flood. If they agree, yay, feel good! If they don't agree, get a lawyer involved, but also don't hesitate to let any local media know. The reason I say email, and not phone, is because you want it documented that you contacted them, sent them copies of everything, etc., because if you do get that lawyer involved, it will demonstrate that you reached out and provided backup documentation in good faith. And of course the person you talked to is in damage control, because a) they probably don't know enough to understand what impacts may have actually occurred, and b) they're trained to always deny culpability when the public reaches out. The Sewer Lateral Management Assessment they conducted may not cost you anything in the long-run, but was done so they can try and demonstrate that the issue is with your service lateral and not the City's MH/gravity main/infrastructure. Which it is currently... because they likely flushed debris back up your service line! Edit: Also, going back to your original post, when you bought the home and had it inspected, did the home inspector run say the shower and some sinks and flush? Usually they'll try to stress the drain to see if there is a blockage (at least, the few I've had done have), and that could help make your case too. Motronic posted:Here's a first for the plumbing thread: you need to hire a lawyer. Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Apr 11, 2021 |
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Apr 11, 2021 06:48
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:I need to move my laundry box. I was thinking that since I've already got the wall open and I have to put in a new box anyway, I would put in a little extra insurance and get one of these https://ndaonline.net/watts-A2C-WB-M1-intelliflow-with-wall-box/ Why not put a automatic water shutoff meter/valve on your common supply coming in? That wall box is neat, but it obviously doesn't protect the other areas that would likely see failure, such as dishwasher, refrigerator water/ice maker, valve flex lines, toilet flex lines, etc.
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Apr 14, 2021 18:11
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SouthShoreSamurai posted:Mainly because I didn't know such a thing existed. What do you recommend? There's a few different ones - I personally purchased (but still need to install) the Flo by Moen: https://www.moen.com/flo, but there are several different brands you can go. Most have you simply install an actuator on a manual shutoff (usually a quarter-turn ball, which if you don't have, you'll need to get installed...), and then put sensors around the house to monitor for leaks, at which point it would shutoff the valve. I'm not a huge fan of that though, because my experience with leaks has been that it's been the in-the-wall, slow drip leaks that have caused damage and problems. I like the Flo device because it has a meter and shutoff built in, so no sensors required. You can program the app for home vs away, overnight, etc.; it tries to "learn" your use, though I'm not sure how great that works. The main drawbacks are that it's a plastic bodied device, so while they say it can be installed outdoors, I'm skeptical; it's also app-based for monitoring/control, but it's free at least, and finally, no battery backup since it goes off 120v, so in addition to needing a 120v outlet nearby, it will "fail open" in the event you have a power outage (which, to me, wasn't a big concern, because that's a double-failure scenario that's unlikely in my view). My supply comes in from outside, guess up to the attic through the garage wall space, etc., so my plan has been to simply open up the wall where the pipe is and cut this in. Depending on how much you want to spend, you can also go for the Best of the Best of these, and get a Flo Logic: https://www.flologic.com/product/flologic-system-3-5-with-1-1-2-40mm-valve/ In addition to the app, it has a control panel and battery backup, so you're always protected and it can also be controlled by the panel so the app isn't 100% required like the Flo by Moen. I almost bought this (and still have been tempted), but paying full MSRP is a tough pill to swallow... Edit: I forgot about Water Hero, which is an "in-between" option that still uses an app or website, but is self-controlled and doesn't use AI. https://waterheroinc.com/p100leakdetectionautoshutoff/ Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 18:36
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Nitrox posted:At a first glance, those seem to react to either sudden loss of large quantities of water or physical water leak over a strategically-placed sensor. You'd probably place something like this inside of a cabinet or under a water heater. Usually those places are fine with the cursory visual inspection. Most leaks develop slowly over period of time and often spotted visually within a short time frame. I'm not telling you not to spend money on this, but the usefulness of those products seems a bit exaggerated None of the ones I linked use sensors, because I personally don't like the sensor-method. The ones I linked all have an inline meter that will monitor and report all flow through the line, with accuracy equivalent to the positive displacement-type meter installed on many homes; I think the Flo device is using an ultrasonic sensor. The two positive displacement-type, will probably detect flow above about 0.004 gpm, so if you set it to "away" or "sleeping" or whatever, and it sees more than that continuous, it's going to shutoff the valve. For comparison, running your sink is going to be 1 - 1.5 gpm, and the shower is closer to 2+ gpm, so that should put it into perspective that they're not looking at "sudden loss of large quantities of water" to be able to detect a leak. And I've had two leaks in the last 8 years: one was in the wall with just a small drip that we didn't find until the carpet near the wall was wet and wouldn't dry, and I'm not sure the drip would have been large enough for this, but the other leak was a slab leak that we noticed because the meter wouldn't stop running even though we knew no water was being used, and any of these would have shut that off right away. So to me it's a cheap investment to make given the related cost of repairs that have and could happen. Plus, they typically recommend replacing supply lines to refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, toilets, sinks, etc. every 5 years at the latest. While I'm sure many of us do that, how often do you think the typically person does it? That's who these devices are also meant to help...
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Apr 15, 2021 00:05
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Nitrox posted:The moen unit in your first link absolutely does, but I'm wrong about the rest. The constant flow monitoring function is the real winner here as it would detect minor water loss due to an unseen leak. Every home would benefit from it. I should have been more specific: I'm talking about the Flo by Moen Automatic Water Shutoff (https://www.moen.com/products/Flo_by_Moen/Flo_by_Moen_34_smart_home_water_monitoring_and_leak_detection_system/900-001), which functions via internal sensors to monitor flow, pressure, and temperature and uses an App to monitor and control/adjust the unit. It does not require any of the other sensors that are shown on that site, and it appears that Moen has simply rebranded all of their leak detection systems as "Flo by Moen" unfortunately.
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Apr 15, 2021 00:57
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So went to put something in the garage this morning, and found that the water heater bottom had failed, as water was rushing out of the bottom pan via its piped outlet to the garage floor. It's a gas unit, and so now I have a conundrum: do I go back with a standard 50-gal gas unit, or do I take this opportunity to go tankless? I'm in Phoenix, and gas is somewhat cheap. I'm tempted to go tankless just so that I can take out the bottom support and not be afraid of hitting it with the van anymore...
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Apr 25, 2021 18:13
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It's my wife and I and our two sons, so when I did a "worst case" same-time flow use, it's probably on the order of 9-11 gpm. Earlier today I had actually talked myself into trying to do it, but then I forgot about the gas line sizing, and that ideally it'd be fed by a 3/4" gas line. Our current unit has a 1/2" line to it, and the common gas line might only be 3/4" or 1". The only other gas-using appliance is the furnace, and granted it's a multi-stage unit, but still seems like we might be pipe size constrained.
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Apr 26, 2021 07:55
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SourKraut posted:It's my wife and I and our two sons, so when I did a "worst case" same-time flow use, it's probably on the order of 9-11 gpm. I ended up just going with a standard 50-gallon gas tank, so that's that! On a related note, while the plumber was here, I asked about a quote for a water softener system. He happily provided it to me, but when I received the invoice, something stood out that was bothering me. The water softener would need to be in our garage, and on the quote, they mention running the drain over to a vent in the attic to tap into. But my understanding of the code is that you cannot tap into another fixture/appliance's vent stack, and it would either need to have its own dedicated drain line with air gap, or otherwise could be routed to another existing drain line, such as the washing machine standpipe, and air gap'd there?
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Apr 26, 2021 23:53
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