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Hamass posted:What does Cena do? Cover her in poopy? Because he did that. One idea would be for him to put Vickie in a cage (or whatever) with another Diva, ideally someone like Kharma or Beth Phoenix who would be credible as a wrecking machine, as a stipulation. The caveat there is that you'd have to build up a Diva to put in that position, which goes against the WWE's dumb sexist neglect of their own women's division.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:08
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Hamass posted:- You can't make fun of a woman's physical attributes - her weight, her surgically-enhanced breasts, etc. You can make fun of men for such things as Bell's Palsy, almost dying from a heart attack, his weight, and even his moustache. Nobody is saying it's okay to say cruel and offensive things about men - people complain when Vince goes on his bi-yearly JR embarrassment binge too. As far as other things go, there's a question of degrees; making fun of Cody's mustache is far less offensive than making fun of Vicki's weight or JR's medical problems, because people are rarely discriminated against in real life due to their facial hair (as far as I know). Hamass posted:What does Cena do? Cover her in poopy? Because he did that. Maybe he could voice legitimate concerns with her managerial style and question her competence instead of calling her fat. Hamass posted:feminism and all that Wow.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:11
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CombineThresher posted:One idea would be for him to put Vickie in a cage (or whatever) with another Diva, ideally someone like Kharma or Beth Phoenix who would be credible as a wrecking machine, as a stipulation. The caveat there is that you'd have to build up a Diva to put in that position, which goes against the WWE's dumb sexist neglect of their own women's division. That's just basically an offshoot of the "and here comes AJ to attack Vickie!" angle. Besides, that would require: - A divas cage match (has this ever happened before)? - A non-wrestler like Vickie Guerrero being one of the competitors in a divas cage match McMahon, Bischoff and Johnny Ace at least have enough wrestling experience to work a solid "get the poo poo kicked out of me" match. Let's say the feud is between Vickie and Cena. No diva is gonna come rushing to Cena's aid to help him exact his revenge on Vickie, however Vickie has basically every heel on the roster eager and willing to carry out her dirty work in order to gain favor in the GM's eyes. Cena must get his revenge on her all by himself, no "Cena watches Kharma destroy Vickie and laughs about it". What then? Chinston Wurchill posted:Maybe he could voice legitimate concerns with her managerial style and question her competence instead of calling her fat. People have been doing this to Vickie for years. She brushes it off. Taking television time for Cena to explain to the audience that Vickie is a bad person isn't required: the audience knows she's an incompetent manager. Hamass fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jan 3, 2013 |
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Jan 3, 2013 17:15
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didn't Lita participate in a Cage Match against someone? EDIT: Apparently against Victora? From what Google is saying.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:17
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Somehow there have been fictional women antagonists in stories that got their comeuppance without being called fat or sluts. Cena could turn things around on Vickie, get her fired the way she got AJ fired, by showing the Board of Directors footage of her abusing her power & such. Cena could get Vickie so angry she agrees to a match, a guy of her choosing vs Cena, if Cena wins he gets her fired. Then you get scenes of Vickie sucking up to heels, trying to get them to do her bidding. None of that involves mocking Vickie for her weight, and don't make me roll my eyes and want to stop watching Raw.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:23
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triplexpac posted:Somehow there have been fictional women antagonists in stories that got their comeuppance without being called fat or sluts. But all of your ideas end with Vickie getting fired. In order for (real life) Vickie Guerrero to pay her bills, she must remain as an on-screen evil authority figure. Goes back to my point about how I don't think Vickie wants to sit at home, unemployed, satisfied in the knowledge nobody's making jokes about her on television.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:27
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Everybody who gets fired on TV as an executive comes back in some other role (except John Laurinaitis for now, #PeoplePower never forget), and considering Vickie's status as "person crowds love to boo", they'll just use her as a manager. But basically, weekly authority figures are a crutch and haven't been used well for a long time (except for John Laurinaitis, RIP People Power).
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Jan 3, 2013 17:29
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Hamass posted:That's just basically an offshoot of the "and here comes AJ to attack Vickie!" angle. Besides, that would require: It wouldn't have to be a cage match, just a stipulation where if Cena wins a match against whoever, then Vickie gets locked in a cage with whichever Diva wrecking machine gets involved for five minutes (Cena can convince/hire them to get involved, if need be). If Paul Heyman and Jim Cornette could do stuff like that convincingly, so can Vickie. It's an old-school angle, yes, but insulting Vickie's weight is really lazy writing (especially when she's not even fat) and I don't know why you're defending it.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:30
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Hamass posted:But all of your ideas end with Vickie getting fired. In order for (real life) Vickie Guerrero to pay her bills, she must remain as an on-screen evil authority figure. Goes back to my point about how I don't think Vickie wants to sit at home, unemployed, satisfied in the knowledge nobody's making jokes about her on television. I thought when you said "comeuppance" you meant the end game of her GM run. But hey, if you don't want it to end with her getting fired, have her guy beat Cena or have the match end in DQ tomfoolery. Have her bring in some swerve that results in the Board of Directors keeping her on, with even more power to punish Cena with. All I am saying is there are ways to tell stories without calling Vickie a fat slut, are you arguing against that?
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Jan 3, 2013 17:30
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Jesus, I'm not arguing for calling Vickie a fat slut. It's like the Beatles song goes "you say you got a real solution, well you know, we'd all love to see the plan". I groan at a lot of King jokes too, but "face embarrasses heel to delight of audience" is one of the most classic wrestling tropes, and my opinion is that when you make a female heel authority figure, (unless you want to argue that female heel authority figures should never exist because of this, which is sexist in an entirely different way) something bad has to happen to her over the course of a feud. If it's always "Beth Phoenix beats the poo poo out of her", well that gets old fast. I don't necessarily like the Vickie fat jokes but I acknowledge that the evil scheming character of Vickie Guerrero needs to get some comeuppance for her dastardly ways. So far the only acceptable angle is that a diva beats her up while Cena watches in delight.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:40
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triplexpac posted:I thought when you said "comeuppance" you meant the end game of her GM run. But hey, if you don't want it to end with her getting fired, have her guy beat Cena or have the match end in DQ tomfoolery. Have her bring in some swerve that results in the Board of Directors keeping her on, with even more power to punish Cena with. I don't want to speak for him and I would NOT go as far as him (like I said, the stuff with AJ made my skin crawl and I often think people are overly sensitive about this poo poo) but I think there's a kernel of possible interesting discussion there. Did anyone ever, on-screen, refer to Edge as a "man-whore" or similar? Did people get upset about it? Now, I am well aware of the minefield that is double standards with regards to male and female sexuality (and body images for that matter) so I'm genuinely not trying to go on some "men's rights" diatribe here. I'm a straight white man so I realize there are parts that I can't fully "get", though my disability provides at least some understanding and empathy in some areas. I merely wish that if they're not going to remove the stupid stuff, that there was at least some more "equal opportunity dumb poo poo" I guess.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:44
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Hamass posted:I don't necessarily like the Vickie fat jokes but I acknowledge that the evil scheming character of Vickie Guerrero needs to get some comeuppance for her dastardly ways. So far the only acceptable angle is that a diva beats her up while Cena watches in delight. When you say things like this, you pretty much are arguing for calling Vickie fat? We don't get upset over people calling Edge a man whore because men getting slut shamed doesn't exist to the extent that it does for women. Not even close. There is a ton of negativity around women's sexuality and body, that just doesn't exist for men. I hate that I'm having this argument haha. I feel like I'm being trolled. I don't even consider myself a "feminist" or whatever, this just seems like a morally right or wrong kind of thing.
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Jan 3, 2013 17:56
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All I'm saying is if you have a problem with something, have a solution for it. Simply saying "there are ways to tell stories without calling Vickie a fat slut", while not listing any of these stories and leaving it up to somebody else to come up with them, is complaining for the sake of complaining. I'm sure the WWE writers encounter this exact problem as well, suffer the same writer's block, and resort to easy punchlines. The easiest road to take is the moral high ground and turn this into some sort of attack on me for playing Devil's advocate (and no matter how many times you try, I'm not going to rip off the metaphorical mask and reveal I've been a huge fan of Vickie fat jokes all along) instead of going "here is a problem and this is how it should be fixed".
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Jan 3, 2013 18:02
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triplexpac posted:When you say things like this, you pretty much are arguing for calling Vickie fat? But see, I'm not disputing that but at the same time if anything it just reinforces how hosed up gender issues are for both sides. I'm not gonna get into this in detail here, but a really good friend of mine is a staunch feminist and she's sort of opened my eyes up about a lot of this crap (I call it crap not to downplay it, but because I hate it), but even she acknowledges that the double standards exist, and are bad, on both sides. It's just less visible for men. It's sad, is all. Anyway, WRESTLING!
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Jan 3, 2013 18:04
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Hamass posted:All I'm saying is if you have a problem with something, have a solution for it. Simply saying "there are ways to tell stories without calling Vickie a fat slut", while not listing any of these stories and leaving it up to somebody else to come up with them, is complaining for the sake of complaining. I'm sorry, but do you really believe "Dont raise a problem unless you have a solution" makes even a little bit of sense? Because I cant think of a single walk of life, practical or creative where that means anything other than "I like the status quo, stop pointing out things I dont want to accept". "Well, I knew the toaster would start fires if you use thick sliced bread, but I didnt know how to fix it so I didnt mention it." "Sure I realised that the steering would lock if you turned left at 40 mph, but I didnt know how to fix it so I didnt mention it". "Sure I thought the storyline about necrophilia was a bad idea, but I couldnt think of a necrophilia story that was in better taste so I didnt raise it". I dont think you are a fan of Vickie fat jokes, but I do think you are a fan of the product who doesnt like it being criticised and who doesnt see a problem with the institutional and endemic sexism in pro wrestling. You can like a thing and acknowledge that it has problems. Fixing the problems is the job of the people who are paid to fix the problem, but raising that you find something to be a problem that needs fixed is the right of the consumers of the product. Aside from anything else, there is a difference between "I cant solve this problem" and "This problem is unsolvable so not worth discussing". If I raise a problem then its possible that someone smarter/more creative than me can solve it. Thats why you have a writers room instead of just one writer. If no-one raises the problem then it never gets solved. Frankly, if the writers cant finish a story without resorting to calling a middle aged woman a fat slut then maybe they shouldnt be telling that story (And maybe they are bad writers). There are huge numbers of stories across all media with female antagonists that manage to wrap up the storylines without the comeuppance being "And then she was called a fat slut, lol!". Even if you dont see the sexism you should be against that writing because it is lovely, lazy writing that wouldnt make it to the screen in any other area of television. And thats not even touching on the fact that other posters in the thread have posted several ways of giving a female heel non-wrestler their just desserts without calling them fat sluts. Basically the same way you end a storyline with a male heel non-wrestler. Bobby Heenan was stuffed into a weasel suit, no-one called him a fat slut. Miss Elizabeth jumped Sherri (though its possible the announcers did call her a slut, if they did do you think it added to the moment?) You could have made 3 Vickies from one Percy Pringle, but when he was buried in concrete they didnt have the announcers going "Seeya, fat slut!". Have the on-air character fired from an authority position and brought back as a manager. Give the face a better advantage than the one the heel was trying to unjustly deny them. Have the heel lose some treasured possession. Or, and heres a thought; Stop booking feuds between wrestlers and non-wrestlers that cant culminate in a wrestling match when you are writing a loving wrestling show. Bring back managers instead to help facilitate feuds and have the wrestlers and stables feud with each other. Edit: Or, I could have just saved a whole bunch of words and said what triplexpac said below. VVV SiKboy fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 3, 2013 |
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Jan 3, 2013 18:55
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SamuraiFoochs posted:But see, I'm not disputing that but at the same time if anything it just reinforces how hosed up gender issues are for both sides. I'm not gonna get into this in detail here, but a really good friend of mine is a staunch feminist and she's sort of opened my eyes up about a lot of this crap (I call it crap not to downplay it, but because I hate it), but even she acknowledges that the double standards exist, and are bad, on both sides. It's just less visible for men. It's sad, is all. Hah, wrestling indeed! Yeah I tend to avoid arguments like this because they go around and around. My core point is just that there really isn't any need to call Vickie fat. That's it. My way of fixing it is DON'T CALL HER FAT. I don't know why this requires some detailed plan or analysis. Just give her her comeuppance the way they would in any other PG show. Put a pie in her face (they've done this a bunch of times). Outsmart her. Hell, drag her kicking and screaming to a garbage truck like they did with Bischoff. Make it cartooney and fun, something that fits the product they're trying to put out. Hamass, your argument to me sounds like "This is wrestling, you either beat her up or call her fat what ELSE can you do". That seems crazy.
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Jan 3, 2013 18:59
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SiKboy posted:I'm sorry, but do you really believe "Dont raise a problem unless you have a solution" makes even a little bit of sense? Because I cant think of a single walk of life, practical or creative where that means anything other than "I like the status quo, stop pointing out things I dont want to accept". "Well, I knew the toaster would start fires if you use thick sliced bread, but I didnt know how to fix it so I didnt mention it." "Sure I realised that the steering would lock if you turned left at 40 mph, but I didnt know how to fix it so I didnt mention it". "Sure I thought the storyline about necrophilia was a bad idea, but I couldnt think of a necrophilia story that was in better taste so I didnt raise it". If your car breaks, you take it to someone who can fix it. Opening metaphor doesn't really make sense. Nobody is outright calling Vickie a "fat slut". Cena and Lawler have made tasteless jokes at her expense, and other females such as Eve and AJ have been called out for promiscuity, but you make it seem as thought every time Vickie is on screen, the announcers suddenly go "HERES THE FAT SLUT EVERYBODY SHE IS AN OVERWEIGHT WHORE AND YOU ALL NEED TO KNOW IT", when this isn't the case. You're trying to make something pretty subtle (when's the last time King made a fat joke at Vickie's expense, honestly?) into something prevalent to help your argument. A couple of dumb fat jokes doesn't mean the announce team parrots "FAT SLUT FAT SLUT FAT SLUT" every time she's on the screen. Other solutions are great, but again all cartoonish, and most seem to boil down to "let another female beat her up". But you need new storylines, new angles, something different from last week in order to keep the audience tuned into next week's show. A couple weeks back on Raw, they announced AJ vs. Vickie and AJ spent a couple segments running around all happy that she was finally getting her hands on Vickie. The reaction was pretty tepid. You need to consider entertainment value, and that people are playing characters that are clearly and easily defined as "good" or "bad". The whole point of professional wrestling is that the "bad" guy must suffer for bad actions, most of the time this means getting pinned and losing an important match against a bitter rival. Except everyone knows Vickie isn't a wrestler, and having AJ or Beth kick her rear end is a predictable result: the female wrestler defeats the female non-wrestler. It's the same thing with Stephanie, or AJ if she ever becomes an authority figure again, or any other little girls out there who dream of one day fake-managing Monday Night Raw. There are boundaries, but obsessing over these boundaries to the point of thinking females shouldn't be allowed to be heel authority figures is insane. Vickie is very good at her role, and not letting her be an authority figure because it offends you when Cena makes his stupid jokes is just as sexist, because it paints all females as not being able to handle Cena's stupid jokes. It's a complicated issue, but again, I haven't heard a solution to my initial "how would Cena, by himself, get revenge on Vickie" without Cena hiring a female goon, pies in the face, or weasel suits. There's a reason people poo poo all over segments like Mae Young giving birth to Hornswoggle: they're crap. Parading Vickie around in a weasel suit (why is she in the weasel suit? Isn't she in charge? Can't the person in charge simply take off the weasel suit?) is bad television. I'm not saying calling Vickie fat is good television, mind you, but there's so many factors and variables involved that I think it's dumb to set demands (the face must never talk about the female heel's body, the face must never talk about the female heel's past with other wrestlers) and then fall back on "Vickie can get a pie to the face and then Beth Phoenix can beat her up" every single week.
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Jan 3, 2013 20:06
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Hey, I have a solution. Mock and insult people for their personality and character traits, not their body weight or physical ailments. Who in the blue hell ever defended the WWE for mocking JRs bells palsy? Those segments always lead to people questioning why they still watch the WWE.
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Jan 3, 2013 20:15
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Me and HHH have a problem with Punks physique.
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Jan 3, 2013 20:37
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Hamass posted:It's a complicated issue, but again, I haven't heard a solution to my initial "how would Cena, by himself, get revenge on Vickie" without Cena hiring a female goon, pies in the face, or weasel suits. That's because you keep shifting goalposts every time one of us suggests anything. This isn't a complex problem; you've just decided that sexism is the only logical solution to a Vickie/Cena storyline and you're tuning everyone else out.
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Jan 3, 2013 20:42
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Clearly the solution is to not have women play any kind of important part in wrestling except valet in distress. If you don't involve them in storylines you don't have to worry about offending them.
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Jan 3, 2013 20:53
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I would like Cena more if he showed up and threw pies at people. Don't even need a reason for it. Just have him randomly start walking toward somebody with his smug Cena face carrying a big pie in his hand and then he throws it at them.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:05
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Bocc Kob posted:I would like Cena more if he showed up and threw pies at people. Don't even need a reason for it. Just have him randomly start walking toward somebody with his smug Cena face carrying a big pie in his hand and then he throws it at them. So turn him into evil Doink?
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Jan 3, 2013 21:07
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bobkatt013 posted:So turn him into evil Doink? Doink was always evil. No matter what anyone says.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:08
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MrBling posted:Doink was always evil. No matter what anyone says. This is very true. Clowns are evil creatures from the bowls of hell.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:10
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I feel like if one really truly cared about the issue, they would find a term other than "slut-shaming" to use.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:12
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MrBling posted:Doink was always evil. No matter what anyone says. As a kid, I remember thinking the WWF did well with the beginnings of Doink. From my memory, there was a long stretch every week on Superstars where you'd see this clown walking around in the crowd but they never really said anything about it. As a viewer, I just remember thinking "there's that clown again. Maybe they're gonna do something with him e eventually since he's appeared multiple weeks in a row." But it didn't feel like they rushed it or anything. Just a little detail in the background you could notice, one they eventually did something with and made me, as a young fan, think "I was right! They are going somewhere with this!" and that was really cool to me.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:13
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Hamass posted:
I would have sworn there were goalposts around here a minute ago. Anyone seen them?
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Jan 3, 2013 21:16
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God drat this "discussion" could not possibly be any more socially just right now.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:22
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sportsgenius86 posted:I feel like if one really truly cared about the issue, they would find a term other than "slut-shaming" to use. My stance on the issue is that wrestling storylines don't need to be misogynist, but maybe they need to be misogynist to please wrestling fans, who apparently skew ten or twenty years behind the general population on the "Women: Humans?" question.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:23
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Halloween Jack posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming I get that it's a "thing" but the term itself just seems counterproductive.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:24
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sportsgenius86 posted:I get that it's a "thing" but the term itself just seems counterproductive. It's a means to reclaim the word. But let's stop the E/N derail, please.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:39
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This is a really lovely conversation.
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Jan 3, 2013 21:52
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To help you end the derail here's a question, Questions Thread: John Cena dropped poop on Dolph & AJ. How is he the good guy in this story?
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Jan 3, 2013 21:58
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I tried steering the convo towards the Doink direction we were headed in.  c'mon people, who else here is old and used to watch Superstars every week in syndication and also freaked out when Jake had his snake bite Savage?
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Jan 3, 2013 21:59
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I dunno maybe call out Vickie for being a shameless hypocrite, ridiculously corrupt and do things like break her needlessly vain poo poo like a painting of her. Just nothing that calls her out on the fact that she's a female and not living up to the standards of a TV female in Vince's mind. Just as the faces don't have to bring up race or race related stereotypes when fighting the likes of Mark Henry (Dear god why would anyone bring up race to Mark Henry, Mr Freebird) You don't have to bring up gender or gender related stereotypes when talking about any female performer. And the old "If I can't be racist/misogynist/classist then how will I write for blacks/women/the poor" argument is only ever brought up by people who should never write anything ever anyway. Edit: Sorry. To answer the question as to why John Cena is the good guy... Wrestling is vicarious wish fulfilment. I wanna beat up my boss/gently caress the pretty people/ be the champion. Cena is the good guy because he just dumped poo on his traitorous ex. Any level of examination makes Cena the bad guy but most people don't give a hoot. Gonzo McFee fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jan 3, 2013 |
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Jan 3, 2013 22:00
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AtomicDrop posted:To help you end the derail here's a question, Questions Thread: Can you actually picture any heel ever dropping poop on a babyface? It was silly and stupid not malicious like if had beaten Dolph and AJ with a steel chair. I guess if he knocked them out and cut them then poured the poo poo in their wounds that would be heelish.
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Jan 3, 2013 22:15
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AtomicDrop posted:To help you end the derail here's a question, Questions Thread: Babyface Eddie did it. Babyface D-Generation X did it. If "attacking someone after a match" gets called a heel move because of precedent, then poop drops are a babyface move by precedent.
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Jan 3, 2013 22:28
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Babyface Eddie did it. Oof, I wasn't aware of those. Yeah, it's weird but, of all the crazy stuff I let slide in wrestling, a face dropping poop on a heel seems off to me, I dunno.
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Jan 3, 2013 22:38
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Remember, this is the company where farting = face turn
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Jan 3, 2013 22:41
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