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Some questions: - How does Seth Rollins' curbstomp move work? I don't understand how the weight is being shifted or whatever to mitigate most of the risk of a broken nose or jaw. There's one he did to Brock Lesnar in the run-up to the 2015 Royal Rumble that looked brutal. - There seems to be several current wrestlers (Dolph Ziggler, Jack Swagger, The Miz...?) who either won championships or were otherwise considered main event level in the past but who are not considered that way now. I can't tell if they're supposed to basically be jobbers or if they're supposed to be taken seriously. Which of them are supposed to be credible threats? - What were the merits of Hulk Hogan as a wrestler and a performer? Obviously he had to have something special given that he was a gigantic star, but I don't really get it (besides being strong enough to lift Andre). - What's the deal with Zeb Colter? - With AJ Styles on the roster, who are the non-WWE performers who would still be seen as big "gets" for the company to sign? I'm assuming The Young Bucks (heard a lot about them on the #how2wrestling podcast), but whose else? Thanks for your responses. I watched WWF as a kid in the '90s, like many kids, and stopped in the early '00s when Austin stopped. I didn't think about it all until I stumbled across Max Landis' Wrestling Isn't Wrestling short film. That got me interested enough in it to watch (most) PPVs since last year's Wrestlemania. Although it was a little tough to get back into it, the list of previously-asked questions in the OP is awesome and really helpful to getting up to speed. It'd be terrific to get an updated version of it. EDIT: Wow, lot of really comprehensive answers, thanks everyone! surf rock fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 27, 2016 |
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Jan 27, 2016 18:09
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While looking at stuff on YouTube, I found a gimmicky Raw from 2010: "Raw Old School." It looks pretty entertaining with all of the old '80s wrestlers around and the throwback graphics being used. ADR had a match with Sgt. Slaughter and other ridiculous poo poo. I think they even did a filter on the video to make it a little grainy (this might just be the quality of the YT recording). Any other gimmicky Raw/Smackdown events like that? Except for truly amazing matches, I find it hard to watch a random old non-PPV show and actually be interested in it, but if they do other weird one-off event nights like this, I'd be into it.
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Feb 17, 2016 18:46
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Uh, can someone explain why Shane McMahon is apparently the most popular guy in the world? I vaguely remember him existing and being the least interesting McMahon in like 1998-2000, but apparently things really took off after that? Or he was really over at the time and I just had no idea? What's his gimmick? What're some big promos he had? Did he have crazy matches or something? I don't get it.
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Feb 23, 2016 05:11
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:During the Attitude Era, which had wrestlers going so hard that almost all of them needed neck surgery by 2003 or so, Shane would do a match every six months and agree to bumps that were utterly absurd.  Oh god the thump! of his head landing on the concrete, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckI get it now. That + probable death of the Authority + been a long time = big pop. idk if I want the Undertaker's (probably?) last Wrestlemania match to be against him, but I suppose I'll take it.
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Feb 23, 2016 05:38
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Been watching some wrestling to prepare for Wrestlemania, came up with a bunch of questions. 1.) Which wrestlers had the best (actual) retirement matches? 2.) Why do goons always say that Kurt Angle will die in the ring? I get that he's old and he wrestles a lot (too much), but there are a lot of old dudes who wrestle a lot and they don't get the same response. Is his style particularly dangerous? Does his background as an actual wrestler mean his body's more torn up? Has he had a bunch of debilitating injuries? Has he done interviews saying he thinks he'll go another 20 years? I'm just confused why Angle, who's younger than Kane, has such a strong reputation for being an insane lifer who will literally never quit. 3.) Speaking of Kane, has he ever done an interview explaining his costume shift? His original costume was terrific, and obviously you'd want to switch things up over time (especially if the mask or the suit were uncomfortable), but man, I can't help but think how bad his costumes have looked since then. The current one isn't horrible, I guess, but a lot of them have been garbage compared to the first. 4.) What was Bruno Sammartino's importance and influence, besides increasing the popularity of the product? Is there any value for current fans in going back to watch his matches, or is it just too different and slow-paced compared to modern wrestling? 5.) I came into wrestling during the Attitude Era. I think I understand the Hogan era pretty well, but I don't "get" the New Generation era at all. I know it wasn't long or particularly successful, so it's not super important to understand, but it feels like an interesting little transition era worth knowing better. This would probably be difficult, but could someone give like a 2-3 sentence explanation of the quality/popularity of each of the following: Bret Hart, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Shawn Michaels and Jeff Jarrett 6.) Is it true that Vince McMahon used to be a babyface announcer back in the '80s, and wasn't really involved in stories or have much of a personality until the Montreal Screwjob?
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Apr 1, 2016 03:43
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Fluffy Bunnies posted:Even though Flair just stopped wrestling for WWE, that last match he had at Wrestlemania 24 had a really good build and, for Flair's age, was a good match. And drat, that robe. There were a lot of good things about that match. That was actually the match that made me ask the question! Yeah, it was a really good match. The whole ending, with Michaels' apology and Flair futilely putting up his fists, terrific. The latter bit reminded me of the Undertaker and the Wyatts in last year's Survivor Series; I have a soft spot for the old guys who make one last stand, I guess. To everyone else: thank you! Really helpful.
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Apr 1, 2016 04:10
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Aesop Poprock posted:Do you mean just how they were considered during the New Generation era, or overall? Cause Shawn Michaels is widely considered to be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time and Bret Hart is sort of close to that distinction. Both, really, although I think the former is a little more interesting.
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Apr 1, 2016 12:46
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I've been really intrigued by the "top guy in the company" concept, because WWE's efforts to put Roman Reigns in that position have been so hilariously disastrous. Using my limited knowledge and a little bit of research of the periods I don't know very well, I tried to piece together a list of who's been at the top, with the folks in parentheses who were also in the "top guy" picture but who never quite got there in a sustained way. In other words, the mainstays of the upper card. In-ring success, public face of WWE, merchandise sales all play some kind of part in this, although it's obviously subjective. Anyway, here's what I came up with: 1984 - 1992: Hulk Hogan - (Andre the Giant, Rowdy Roddy Piper, Bob Backlund, Macho Man Randy Savage, Ultimate Warrior) 1993 - 1997: Bret Hart - (Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, Diesel, Yokozuna) 1997 - 2003: Stone Cold Steve Austin - (The Rock, Triple H, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, Kane, Kurt Angle, Ken Shamrock) 2003 - 2005: Triple H - (Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Brock Lesnar, The Undertaker, Edge, Christian) 2005 - 2016: John Cena - (Batista, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Randy Orton, Brock Lesnar, Rob Van Dam) 2016 - Heat death of universe: THE BIG DOG Roman Reigns - (who else could compare?) I've love to know the following: 1.) Obviously, there are periods during each of the above reigns where they were either injured or not the champion. For simplicity's sake, I just kind of brushed over those. But, is there a period when someone other than those six men was really actually the top guy for a sustained period of time? 2.) Do any of those names stick out as wrong? Are any names missing? 3.) What would similar lists look like for WCW, ECW, TNA, ROH and NJPW?
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Apr 11, 2016 02:00
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I got back into wrestling nearly a year after CM Punk left and a couple months after AJ Lee left. I missed their whole careers, and although I've watched a couple of Punk's more famous matches, it's hard to me to gauge their legacies as wrestlers/entertainers. Obviously, CM Punk chants still happen on shows, and I feel like there's some major angle to the current product that I'm missing. Thanks to the how2wrestling podcast, I have a good amount of background on other Important Things I missed like Cena's rise, the Shield, and Daniel Bryan, but the podcast hasn't covered Punk or Lee yet, so I want to study up on them. To get started, I just listened to the two Colt Cabana interviews and I watched a couple of the "pipebomb" promos (how the hell did those get that name?), and so I understand a little bit about Punk's character. I'd love to get descriptions of Punk/Lee's characters, your assessments of how they stacked up against their competition at the time and how they compare to the talent on the roster now. Both seem like they were big stars, but right now, we've got incredibly talented folks like AJ Styles and Sasha Banks on the roster. Were they considered the best around during their time? Would they still be at that level now, or would they be more in the upper-midcard range? Were they overrated? Basically, please help me put them in context in terms of their importance and talent, thank you.
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May 11, 2016 04:20
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Thanks for the Punk explanations. That makes sense and fits what I'd guessed from the handful of matches/promos/interviews I saw. What about AJ Lee? What's the story on her? I just watched a couple of her matches, and I'm not sure I'd give her the same assessment as Punk. She's OK on the mic and seems solid in the ring, but I don't know if that's just because her career was dead center in a rough era for women's wrestling. I don't know if she would stand out as much on the current roster, although she seems like she would be a much more engaging heel than Charlotte. I will say that her entrance music is so goddamn catchy that it's been stuck in my head for more than an hour, and that there's something to be said for her high energy compared to, say, the Bellas. Charles Gnarwin posted:Also, don't use How2Wrestling to fill in knowledge gaps without a companion piece (i.e. Wikipedia) because Kefin actually doesn't know much and poo poo goes off the rails pretty hard sometimes. Aesop Poprock posted:This really can't be said enough. He literally just speculates or makes poo poo up all the time, and never even bothers to fact check. The whole show is a semi-educated wrestling fan basically making up fan fiction from things he half remembers for someone who's new to wrestling. Well, poo poo, that sucks. In his defense, it's been very entertaining fan fiction and his enthusiasm/storytelling is most of the reason I got back into wrestling. That said, now I'm wondering what kind of misinformation I've picked up from listening to the show. Any specific examples come to mind of "Kefin just flat-out lied or misrepresented this really important thing" so I can start clearing those up?
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May 11, 2016 13:20
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I'm of the opinion that at least a quarter of the fun of pro wrestling is the entrances. Great ones can instantly change the mood of an entire crowd. Bad ones can kill off the excitement even for a great wrestler. What do folks consider the best, most iconic, or catchiest themes? I think Stone Cold's glass shatter theme is the most iconic, closely followed by The Undertaker's music. Other favorites include Shane McMahon, Vince McMahon, Kurt Angle, CM Punk, AJ Lee, Kane, Daniel Bryan, the Wyatts, Dolph Ziggler, and Shinsuke Nakamura. I'll also give kudos to the Hulk Hogan theme. It's sort of ridiculous, but it was a perfect fit for his character and the '80s. Also, flip side: worst themes ever? I think Brie Bella's gotta be in contention, as does Cesaro. Stephanie McMahon got the short end of the stick with her theme. There are so many bad, generic entrances that are basically remixes of Austin's theme without the glass shatter. Roman Reigns' theme is an obvious case, but there are dozens if not hundreds of them.
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Jun 10, 2016 19:12
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Alright, folks explained who the hell Teddy Long was a couple of weeks ago and it was really helpful, and now I have the same question about John Laurinaitis. Who the hell is he? What was his gimmick all about? Since this seems to be a likely recurring joke for the next month until the draft, what other former execs could be dredged up for Stephanie and Shane to humiliate? What are their stories?
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Jun 22, 2016 17:05
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GeneX posted:CM Punk was a huge fan-favorite, a bit of a diva (by which I mean a bit stuck up, egotistical, etc.), and really loving good on the mic. Like, not Austin or Rock good, but just below them. This makes me wonder, who are/were the best promos in the business? In addition to those three, I would also say Vince McMahon, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, and Ric Flair. Enzo Amore, Kevin Owens, and Xavier Woods seem like they'll be on this list by the end of their careers. I think John Cena, Dean Ambrose, and The Miz are also pretty good on the mic, but not at the same level as these other guys. I know people think Sasha Banks is a good promo, but I haven't heard enough from her to say one way or another. Who else?
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Jun 26, 2016 15:52
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These days seem to be the beginning of a golden age for women's wrestling. They're still getting very little screen time and I'm not sure the women's roster is that deep on talent, but it seems much more prominent and respected these days than a decade or two ago, from my perspective. I've got a lot of gaps in my knowledge, though, so I did a few minutes of research. Here're who seemed to be the standard-bearers for female wrestlers: 1980s and earlier: Mae Young, The Fabulous Moolah, Wendi Richter, Mildred Burke Early-to-mid 1990s: Alundra Blayze, Bull Nakano Mid-to-late 1990s: Chyna Early-to-mid 2000s: Trish Stratus, Lita Mid-to-late 2000s: Beth Phoenix Early-to-mid 2010s: Bella Twins, AJ Lee Mid-to-late 2010s: The Four Horsewomen Except the first category, I only included WWE folks. I realize there're stronger women's wrestling traditions elsewhere, but I don't know literally anything about that except it exists. Thoughts on the lists? Obviously, it's 100% opinion-based. I know I left a lot of names off, but I tried to leave it to the truly top folks. I wasn't watching for most of these eras, though, so I dunno if folks like Molly Holly or LayCool or Jacqueline or Mickie James were actually huge deals or just relatively bright stars during bad eras.
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Jul 11, 2016 01:30
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I was looking around at wrestling news this morning, and it struck me how deeply weird wrestling fandom is today. It feels like the only fanbase that has zero investment or interest in the actual story being presented. Fans of other forms of entertainment (TV shows, movies, sports, games) care about "behind-the-scenes" stuff, but it's usually secondary to their investment in the actual product itself. But with wrestling, the only time fans care about the story happening in the ring is using it to figure out what the behind-the-scenes ramifications will be. Stuff like this: "Oh, I hope Bray Wyatt wins this match, he really needs a push." "Ugh, Cena's gonna bury another budding star." "Taker looks so old in the ring, he's gotta retire." "Roman didn't lose clean, so who cares, they're clearly still positioning him as the top guy." The booker could be trying to tell virtually any story and it'll all get ignored (except by the kids watching, who seem to be the only ones who are invested). The most successful stories told by WWE in recent memory (Daniel Bryan's difficult climb to the top, CM Punk's antagonistic relationship with the company, Brock Lesnar as a monstrous opponent) try to leverage the interest fans have in the real/backstage stuff to get them to care about what happens in the ring, to varying levels of success. The more they do that, though, the less people will care about the completely manufactured stories like New Day vs. Wyatts. The only things I've heard fans say about that, for example, are: (1) it's a pretense for breaking up the New Day, (2) it's the last chance for the Wyatts to avoid becoming complete jobbers, and (3) it's a bad knockoff of The Final Deletion. My question is, has it always been like this? Were fans more invested in the kayfabe storylines decades ago, or has it always been cynical smarks talking about workrate and guys getting buried or whatever? Am I overstating the case or oversimplifying things?
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Jul 18, 2016 17:25
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oldpainless posted:I remember an instance during a Stone Cold match where Austins opponent was cheating and JR got so indignant and worked up about it that the other announcers kinda broke character and laughed about how mad he was. It was definitely more than one announcer laughing at JR. I know JR usually got emotional and especially during Austin matches, but this was to the point of ludicrousness. Does anyone else remember this or when it happened? Expanding on this, were/are Austin and JR actually close? Was there ever a kayfabe reason for why JR loved Austin so much, or was he just marking out like the rest of us? Maybe it was a little much at times, but JR's heartbreak and sense of betrayal from Austin's heel turn really made that moment, in my opinion, so it paid off in spades.
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Aug 19, 2016 04:46
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Gavok posted:One of my favorite Vince calls is seeing Sherri's rear end hanging out and saying, "Sherri appears to be missing part of her outfit... That's too bad!" It's like real Vince is trying to break through his straight-laced commentary persona. What are some of the best Vince commentary calls? I think it's hilarious that a loving maniac like him always tried to be Mr. Normal on commentary.
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Sep 16, 2016 14:59
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There's a story that I don't remember ever seeing told in WWE, but I imagine it must have happened several times over the years since it's so simple. The story would be, "Face wrestles heel champion who is part of a tag team or stable. Face is expected to crush the heel and largely does so. During the match, the heel champion's buddies beat up a friend/spouse/tag team partner/manager/valet/whoever, and they broadcast it on the big screen in the arena once the face has the heel on the ropes. Face has to make a moral decision about whether to finish off the heel and become champion or accept the countout loss and go rescue the person instead." Has that little story been used for a match before? Seems like a good way to build the face as strong and likable while generating heat for the dastardly but clever heel. It also lengthens the face's chase for the title and creates an angle for the rematch. magnum_valentino posted:I know Hogan called him after he heard he'd done a moonsault at a house show (in JAPAN) and told him not to do poo poo like that, and that people should be bumping around him, and to act like a giant, otherwise he could never be believably beaten. He needed to be slow. Regardless of whether it was Hogan or someone else who told him that, they were right. If Big Show is trying to run around and do flips or whatever, it's technically impressive but takes away from his character. He needed to be a mountain who might be surprisingly quick/agile in short bursts but otherwise is all about power and intimidation. There are a LOT of big guys but a true giant is an attraction.
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Jan 20, 2017 00:38
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Watching the 1998 Royal Rumble right now, and I had a question. Is Mick Foley the only person to ever enter the same rumble multiple times as different gimmicks? Two additional questions along these lines: 1.) What other wrestlers treated gimmicks the same way Foley did by having it be known even in kayfabe that it's all the same guy? 2.) Were the three gimmicks supposed to be different but equal, or is one meant to be considered stronger than the others? As a kid, I always thought that Mankind was the most capable gimmick, followed by Cactus Jack and then Dude Love, but then there was Cactus Jack's return against Triple H where he's presented as an upgrade. In the rumble I'm watching, though, Cactus Jack got tossed out by Terry Funk but Mankind eliminates Funk immediately. So, I imagine the answer is "whatever made the story work that night" is the answer. Edit: Holy poo poo this rumble ends with Austin vs. Rock, hell yeah Second edit: Austin got so insanely over from 1997 to 1998. Third edit: I miss all the signs in the crowd. surf rock fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jan 22, 2017 |
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Jan 22, 2017 16:48
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I remember hearing somewhere that the New Generation era was rough because the company didn't have any real draws who moved the needle on sales for tickets, PPV buys, and merch. This made me wonder: who are the draws in WWE history? I think there's an obvious group of five at the top: Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, Rock, and Cena. Who else makes the list of draws? Not guys at the level of those five, but wrestlers whose inclusion on a card would spike sales? I've read that the only full-time wrestlers in the past few years to come close to Cena's drawing power for even a brief duration were Jeff Hardy and CM Punk. I'm sure that the Undertaker was considered a draw, but did that only start in the back half of his career after he had achieved legend status? Was somebody like Edge considered a draw? Was Daniel Bryan entering that conversation when his career ended? What about guys like Mick Foley and Triple H? Chyna and Sable? Bob Backlund and Randy Savage? Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels?
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Apr 24, 2017 18:57
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What're the best current arguments for watching TNA? Is it just loyalty, is it "I hate WWE because *fill in the blank* but I still want to watch wrestling," or is it something else? I've heard about some of the reasons to watch it historically (world-class talent like AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, and Kurt Angle, nostalgia acts like Hulk Hogan and Sting, a better women's division), but none of that seems to hold true at this point. I don't understand where their audience would come from at this point.
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May 2, 2017 19:03
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I've got a question that any long-time fan here could answer, but which might be difficult given the challenges of hindsight. I started watching WWE again more than two years ago after stopping watching as a kid at the end of the Attitude Era. Unfortunately, that means I missed out on Super Cena, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan. While going back and watching old Cena and Bryan material is fun, the thing that I'm really sad I missed is the rise of CM Punk. I'm fascinated by the pipe bomb promos and the storylines in his last couple of years, because I have to imagine that while they were happening, everyone was saying "it's a work, marks" because it almost always is. But the shoot interviews since Punk's departure seem to indicate that the most of his material were actual grievances and that he had legitimate heat with folks like Triple H. At the time, did people think Punk's storylines were all a work? Did they think it was mostly shoot but with some worked elements? What was the perception of it prior to his departure and the Colt Cabana interviews? I'm sure I would've thought it was all a work if I had been watching up til then. Also, this seems unlikely, but is the Raw thread from Punk's first pipe bomb still in the archive somewhere? I'd love to see the at-the-time reactions.
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Jul 7, 2017 02:43
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Whatever happened to the vertical suplex? I feel like I never see it anymore, but it was my go-to move in WWE Smackdown or whatever on the original Playstation.
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Aug 2, 2017 01:28
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I'm watching a couple of the past Hall of Fame ceremonies, and with Trish's induction of Lita, I'm really struck by how much she sounds like Alexa Bliss. Her voice is really similar, but beyond that, they also both have a really natural manner of public speaking. Was Trish good on the mic when she was wrestling, or did this skill come about later?
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Mar 5, 2018 19:15
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I know wrestling reddit is Pretty Bad, but I just read this post and watched this video and it was the first time that I really understood why people loving LOVED Daniel Bryan. I started watching wrestling again after Bryan's last match and I kinda got it while watching his retirement speech, but all the clips or whatever of him doing dropkick spots didn't seem much more impressive than, say, a Cesaro match. But goddamn, the passion and lunatic abandon here is incredible. I haven't been invested watching someone in a ring like that since I was watching Austin wrestle nearly 20 years ago as a kid. Holy poo poo. Are there any Daniel Bryan stories/clips like this (maybe not injury-related) where his passion shines through so clearly?
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Mar 20, 2018 00:27
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I've been watching some old WWE Hall of Fames from before I got back into it, and goddamn, the pop that Stone Cold got on his induction. His bit about the Men's Wearhouse suit being poo poo was perfect. Also, holy gently caress, Sunny was still GORGEOUS in 2011. Did she get back on drugs during the afterparty or something? She seems like one of the most interesting people; I remember Cornette saying that she was brilliant and really well-spoken. Last thing: I'd never seen Laycool before, and it seems like their shtick was the Iconics thing but California-style and less over. Being a woman in wrestling must've sucked in 2011; the crowd could not have given less of a poo poo about them.
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May 13, 2018 18:46
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Watching Sherri's induction speech and, goddamn, she is a loving lunatic. She reminds me of old bar flies I know who have a lifetime worth of cigarettes and meth in their system. I do want to dig into some of her old promos, though; the bit where she roasts Bischoff is phenomenal.
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May 14, 2018 00:09
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I have a really simple question that's been weirdly hard to answer: with Fox purchasing the TV rights to Smackdown, do we know if they're going to air Smackdown on their main network channel or on one of their cable affiliates like Fox Sports or whatever?
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May 24, 2018 19:51
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spongeh posted:I think they specifically said Fox the network, and not FS1. Pope Corky the IX posted:I can’t find the article at the moment, but Fox is putting it on the actual Fox network, and insisting that it get the same treatment as Raw. gently caress yes! One fewer reason to have a big cable package. Thanks!
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May 24, 2018 20:10
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Who're the most notable wrestlers + wrestling industry people from the '80s to the modern era who aren't in the WWE Hall of Fame yet? Not including people who are still wrestling or Chyna, Chrois Benoit, and Owen Hart, since we know why they're not in. Here are some that come to mind: - Midnight Express w/Jim Cornette - The Steiner Brothers - The Rockers - Vader - Bam Bam Bigelow - Dino Bravo - Honky Tonk Man - British Bulldog - Sid Vicious - Lex Luger - X-Pac - D'Lo Brown - Ken Shamrock - Val Venis - Test - Lance Storm - Dean Malenko - Perry Saturn - Rob Van Dam - The Sandman - Sabu - Tazz - Raven - Christian - CM Punk - Chavo Guerrero Jr. - JBL - Eric Bischoff - Kevin Sullivan - Vince Russo - Paul Heyman - Brother Love - Rockin' Robin - Jazz - Luna Vachon - Sable - Stacy Keibler - Molly Holly - AJ Lee - Miss Elizabeth - Vickie Guerrero - Jim Johnston surf rock fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jul 23, 2018 |
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Jul 23, 2018 20:34
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CopywrightMMXI posted:The Rock Well, poo poo, I thought he was in. Good point.
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Jul 23, 2018 21:25
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TheCool69 posted:Has Heyman ever talked about the shoot promo he cut on Vince before Invasion? I'd he interested to hear how much Vince was involved and what was the reaction backstage. It's crazy to me how much of the narrative in smark circles is seemingly pulled directly from a handful of promos. I always wonder about the timeline: before this promo, were people talking about Vince Sr. and his promises to the other territorial promoters, or arguing that Vince hated the word wrestling? Before CM Punk's pipebomb, were people talking about Vince's brass rings or thinking that Lauranitis was a weird sycophantic yes man? Or about how important t-shirt sales are to a wrestler getting pushed? Are these promos capitalizing on something that all the fans are already talking about online? Or is this super inside-baseball stuff that didn't catch fire until after the promo? My feeling, as someone who's only been watching actively again for a few years now, is that the wrestling fanbase only really latches onto things once they get some form of validation about it from WWE itself, and that there's this bizarre cycle of general fan sentiment getting turned into a worked-shoot angle that then becomes the "real story" to fans from there on out.
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Mar 7, 2019 23:26
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