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Twerk from Home posted:That car is more expensive than its price indicates. Depreciation will murder you if you sell it anytime soon, but repair costs will if you keep it for a long time. Is that from the Volvo side or the hybrid side?
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May 24, 2023 02:46
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GD_American posted:Funny you say that; I was making a pros/cons spreadsheet and doing some research, and found this S60 recharge still gets a $7,500 cap reduction on leases, so it leases for the same price as the regular version. https://www.volvocars.com/us/v/offers/s60/
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May 24, 2023 02:57
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Motronic posted:You said you took it "as far as I feel comfortable with it" with no further explanation. It's also a year old and you're ready to sell it. I wrote a lot but in the end it doesn't matter. This isn't about chasing newer cars. I am very serious about finding a vehicle to go offroad. The x3 m40i did what I bought it to do, and now I'm ready to move on. I look at the offroad trims of the various brands because those seem like a good starting point to find out. Guess I thought maybe someone would have opinions on the 6 or 4 on a cherokee or something.
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May 24, 2023 03:07
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phosdex posted:I have tried over and over to explain that I don't know what lies beyond what my x3 can do. Hoping that some people would give nice pointers as to what to look for to begin going offroad. At no point have I said it must be brand new. It’s difficult to give specific answers if you don’t know what you want to do. It’s ok that you don’t, but just know that’s why you aren’t getting specific answers. With out those details, some good entry level starter platforms for off-roading include the Wrangler, Land Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia / Lexus GX, FJs. Probably the same list that shows up if you google “what’s the best off road vehicle”. Seriously though, anything that has actual 4x4 will probably scratch your itch so just go find what you think looks and feels best if you’re flipping cars every couple years. Trucks or SUVs, whatever had ground clearance and has high and low 4x4. If you want something you can progressively upgrade to meet bigger challenges, the list above is a good start, minus the Sequoia just due to size. It’s incredibly capable though and my buddy hill climbs in his a lot.
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May 24, 2023 03:41
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phosdex posted:I wrote a lot but in the end it doesn't matter. This isn't about chasing newer cars. I am very serious about finding a vehicle to go offroad. The x3 m40i did what I bought it to do, and now I'm ready to move on. I look at the offroad trims of the various brands because those seem like a good starting point to find out. Guess I thought maybe someone would have opinions on the 6 or 4 on a cherokee or something. Jeeps are not super reliable in general, and priced stupidly these days. Wranglers have been priced high for a few years now, because Stellantis has one plant making them, and people buy them. They are fun and immensely capable, but absolutely terrible cars. Cherokees are luck of the draw, and really don’t have a lot of redeeming features other than being 4x4 with 4lo. Where I play out West, you see Wranglers, 4Runners and Tacomas. We ended up picking a 4Runner twice, as it’s the best-balanced reliable 4x4 with 4lo. For your purpose, I’d say decide on what’s important to you in comfort and safety features, and buy whatever feature set / mileage / year / price combo 4Runner you are most comfortable with. Comedy option: Renegades have 4lo. We had one in our group once for a training, and the abominable little shitbox took everything the course threw at it. Lost a few underbody panels, but drat, what a spiteful unstoppable little cockroach.
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May 24, 2023 03:42
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Keep in mind that the 4Runner is likely getting a full new gen refresh next year. That has little to no bearing on its off-road capabilities. The current gen is plenty capable and extremely reliable. But whatever comes next will likely feel more modern in terms of design, interior space, tech/screens, etc. The refreshed Tacoma revealed recently is probably a good indicator of where the 4Runner is going. I appreciate the desire to explore public land roads. It's super fun. It was a large reason we got our 4Runner, although it has been overkill in 95% of our off pavement situations. But we love it. If the new Bronco had been around at the time we definitely would have cross shopped that. As our only vehicle we didn't want a pickup truck, and we dismissed Jeeps on reliability grounds. That didn't leave much in our budget (ie Land Cruisers were out, sadly). But as others have said, there's a wide gap between driving further down dusty BLM roads with some potholes and washouts vs tackling serious off-road obstacles. For the vast majority of situations even a Subaru is more than is needed.
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May 24, 2023 05:40
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A halfway competent driver in a 2wd sedan in dry conditions can do 75% of the trails a 4wd truck can When you add snow and mud and/or 15% grade things fall in favor of the 4wd
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May 24, 2023 06:48
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Hadlock posted:A halfway competent driver in a 2wd sedan in dry conditions can do 75% of the trails a 4wd truck can This is what I'm getting at. Without a description of what "off road" means and/or what was "beyond" this other vehicle I'm led to believe this is largely driving on fire roads. People are doing that and running way the hell out in the desert in crown vics and whatever random rental car they got at the airport without a bit of trouble or drama.
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May 24, 2023 13:30
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love the gatekeeping in this thread. actual post trying to call me out about buying a car, in the new car thread. I'm looking at 4runners now, I'll post pics when I find out what is next.
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May 24, 2023 13:44
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All this 4x4 talk made me go check on Jeep Renegades, and I am a little bit horrified to find out that not only does a 4x4 Renegade cost more than $20k now, but you can't even get a stick anymore. https://jalopnik.com/2015-jeep-renegade-is-your-six-speed-manual-4x4-for-und-1681172682 quote:base Sport trim starting at $17,995 and the Trailhawk ringing up at $25,995 before options. 4WD is worth $2,000; that means you'll be able to get a three-pedal four-wheelin' version for just under twenty grand. Looking at the used market, if anyone actually bought that configuration and managed to keep their driving to under 150k miles since then, their new Jeep depreciated around $4k tops over the last 8 years.
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May 24, 2023 13:54
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phosdex posted:love the gatekeeping in this thread. actual post trying to call me out about buying a car, in the new car thread. I'm looking at 4runners now, I'll post pics when I find out what is next. no one is gatekeeping you, we just can't provide actual advice because your request is nonspecific edit: if you for instance posted "these are the examples of trails or things I want to be able to do that my X3 cannot do," you would get very good advice!
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May 24, 2023 13:54
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Ok, how about this, forgot I ever said I have an x3. I only have a Miata. I want to buy a second car that is mostly for a beginner offroad person. It also needs to do things that the Miata isn't practical for. Drive mom around, pickup groceries, do longer range road trips.
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May 24, 2023 13:59
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Twerk from Home posted:All this 4x4 talk made me go check on Jeep Renegades, and I am a little bit horrified to find out that not only does a 4x4 Renegade cost more than $20k now, but you can't even get a stick anymore. the 4x4 renegade was $19,995 before D&D, which is just about $26K in today's dollars according to CPI. The lowest trim 4x4 renegade base price is $27,8. that's not too too far out. I'm too lazy to control for other features but a real price increase of $225/year assuming same features is not too bad
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May 24, 2023 14:00
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phosdex posted:Ok, how about this, forgot I ever said I have an x3. I only have a Miata. I want to buy a second car that is mostly for a beginner offroad person. It also needs to do things that the Miata isn't practical for. Drive mom around, pickup groceries, do longer range road trips. It leaves the same question: what type of off roading do you want to do? Provide specific examples. Also, "you can do what you're talking about with stuff you already have" is literally the opposite of "gatekeeping" you goober.
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May 24, 2023 14:06
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You can ignore the thread and get a 4x4 if you want. It's allowed I bought a tacoma TRD off-road a couple years ago and daily it. It's incredibly solid. It will get you almost anywhere. The only time I don't keep going is if there is rock hopping. If there is a rock hopping you should be buying a something used and 10-40 years old. If you don't know what that is go watch YouTube videos of offloading at moab. The downside is Tacomas are expensive, the MPG sucks. The MPG is somehow even worse on the 4runner I like the tacoma more than the 4runner, but if I were back doing Arizona trails instead of mountains and snow I would maybe get the 4runner because of the shorter wheelbase. I mean maybe. I actually use the bed too. And the 4runner is uglier. The tacoma is refreshed this year with a hybrid option, maybe look into that. It's not on the street for another few months tho. If you were to put a deposit down now you would probably be lucky to get one in September. 4runner refresh is another year or two out. Anyways you should research a bit what you actually want to do and what you would need to sacrifice. For example just impulse buying a shorter wheel base 4x4 in my region with all the highway snow is a deathtrap. The tacoma's long wheel base is very stable on slushy roads by comparison. I can tow better. etc. But I can't do all the switchbacks in Arizona, where I don't live anyways. edit: I didn't say jeep because I owned a wrangler and it cost an order of magnitude more in repairs than any other vehicle I've owned. never again ethanol fucked around with this message at 14:27 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 14:10
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If you'd like a little more confidence in the least intense dirt situations, the dirt packages on the mass market CUVs like the Rav 4 or CX 50 are a reasonable way to have a road going grocery getter mom shuttle that can access most of the off road that doesn't involve carrying a toolbox and being a mechanic. It's true of the base models of course but the dirt packages involve toys that make the experience. In your price range you could include a little more interior comfort by getting a luxury CUV such as an x3. A 4 runner or 4x4 truck will open up some of the muddier fords and prime you for an off-road life involving a toolbox and a mechanic but I would recommend you get a taste of the latter through joining a club as an interested member who can tag along or else if you want to be spendy there are plenty of vacation experiences that teach moderate off road techniques and field repairs. You can get the 4 runner first and do all that learning and experiencing later and maybe find out it's not for you. That's a valid path, perhaps the most popular one considering how many clean 4 runners and wranglers you see people daily.
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May 24, 2023 14:18
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the good news is the shiny brand new 4v4s that end up as pavement queens seem to hold their value pretty well compared to say the 90s TJs heading into 00s
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May 24, 2023 14:35
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Thanks. I mean the reality is there's only a small handful of vehicles to choose from. It's figuring out model year differences and finding one.
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May 24, 2023 14:48
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The Tacoma/4Runner seems like the obvious choice. They're very capable the way they come from Toyota, and if they don't meet your needs, the aftermarket has a solution for those vehicles. I'm not sure how comfortable they are though. I think it's going to be the compromise of more capability vs daily driver.
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May 24, 2023 16:55
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GD_American posted:Is that from the Volvo side or the hybrid side? The S60 Recharge is the perfect storm. The people who bought it a few months ago got a $7500 tax credit, and anyone who leases it gets a tax credit, maybe even the full $7500. I'm not quite sure of the rules on that. Those tax credits speed up depreciation on all of them, even if you buy it in a way that doesn't get the tax credit, like purchasing it right now. It's a sedan, which depreciate faster than crossovers. It's from a European luxury brand, which fall in price faster than Lexus or Acura, and luxury brands fall faster than non-lux. It's a plug-in hybrid, which is a tiny niche that as mentioned up-thread drive up costs a lot for marginal fuel cost savings, depending what your power and gas costs. For repair costs, Volvos have always been expensive to get fixed because not many mechanics will work on them, parts are expensive, and this specific one is turbocharged too. If you own it a long time the turbo is another expensive part that's probably going to fail before the transmission or rest of the engine does. I thought that the Volvo T8s were both turbocharged and supercharged, but it looks like they removed the supercharger in 2022, which is going to help reliability! Anyway, that specific car looks awesome and if I were going to drop $50k on a car I'd love to have that. Looks really comfortable and powerful.
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May 24, 2023 17:16
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Seems like the Cherokee trailhawk is probably your best bet on paper, and no one is talking about it here just because none of us own one. I sat in one years back and felt like the interior was a step up from most of the competition but that's about it? Going up to a grand Cherokee seems overkill if it's just two people.
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May 24, 2023 17:17
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phosdex posted:Ok, how about this, forgot I ever said I have an x3. I only have a Miata. I want to buy a second car that is mostly for a beginner offroad person. It also needs to do things that the Miata isn't practical for. Drive mom around, pickup groceries, do longer range road trips. AWD prius
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May 24, 2023 19:31
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skipdogg posted:The Tacoma/4Runner seems like the obvious choice. They're very capable the way they come from Toyota, and if they don't meet your needs, the aftermarket has a solution for those vehicles. I'm not sure how comfortable they are though. I think it's going to be the compromise of more capability vs daily driver. 4Runners are… fine. We used to have a 2019 Off-Road Premium, now have a 23 Limited, and had a 2018 LC200 in-between. We also had an SR5 rental for two weeks in 2018. The LC was only a bit more refined than the 23 LTD, especially with all of the continuous upgrades Toyota have been throwing at the 4Runner. The ORP had noticeable road noise, at least on KO2s. Not terrible, and we drove from NJ to UT and back in the space of two weeks with our then 9 month old daughter fine. The one thing I’d require is KDSS or XREAS, which limit body roll somewhat. A 4Runner without those has a lot of body roll / nose dive.
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May 24, 2023 20:15
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morothar posted:4Runners are… fine. Before I made the post up thread, my first step in my new car search was to tell myself "hey, I'm gonna be a dad, I need a dad car, what's a cool dad car?" The answer that sprang to mind, of course, was the A-Team van.  So I put on the theme from the A-Team (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyz_2DEah4o) and started googling "vans and cars for dads" and other suchlike The literal first image hit was a Toyota 4Runner  They know their market Honestly I'd love one if they didn't get a whopping 16mpg. I wonder how long till a hybrid version comes out.
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May 24, 2023 20:30
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phosdex posted:Ok, how about this, forgot I ever said I have an x3. I only have a Miata. I want to buy a second car that is mostly for a beginner offroad person. It also needs to do things that the Miata isn't practical for. Drive mom around, pickup groceries, do longer range road trips. Buy a lightly used X3.
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May 24, 2023 21:18
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KillHour posted:Buy a lightly used X3. This isn't a bad idea; the big problem is going to be paying the covid mark up on one, he might be surprised how much over sticker he ends up paying. Otherwise it seems to fit his use case to a T
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May 24, 2023 21:38
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Twerk from Home posted:The S60 Recharge is the perfect storm. The people who bought it a few months ago got a $7500 tax credit, and anyone who leases it gets a tax credit, maybe even the full $7500. I'm not quite sure of the rules on that. Those tax credits speed up depreciation on all of them, even if you buy it in a way that doesn't get the tax credit, like purchasing it right now. I am Not a Car Guy but I test drove a Volvo with the t8 hybrid system when I bought my car a few years ago (and I test drove the T6 turbo/super dual charger setup as well). The power delivery was loving weird on both of them, or it was in 2020 when I was test driving. There's definitely a lot of power there but coming from a naturally aspirated 4-banger it was just so odd how you could get slammed back off a cold start, then there'd be a weird dip in power, then bam more power, then it would sort of die off toward the top of the rev range. The T8 was even weirder than the T6; it has the same weird power surges but (I think) the electric motor only drives the rears and the gas engine only drives the fronts so it felt unstable under full acceleration as well. It was also noticeably heavier in the same model and with the S60's stiff ride it was pretty jarring going over bad pavement; they also have two very poorly advertised/marked suspension set-ups on the S60 and V60 (or used to anyway) and one of them rides about an inch lower and is designed to punch you in the kidneys. I really liked the redesigned v60 as a car a lot though and ended up with the T5 which is just a slightly underwhelming turbo 4 but it delivers power in a very predictable way and gets decent enough mileage. But I honestly wouldn't be bothered with the 'better' power-trains on any Volvo myself; I drove them all back to back and you really feel all the mechanical over-complication in a way that I didn't like. If I was doing this again now that the regular V60 is not sold here, I'd probably just get the V60CC with the T5 and AWD. It's still a great looking car with a slight lift and some plastic crap on it. e: i guess they mild hybrided everything and call it the b5 now The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 21:56
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I think the t8 drivetrain only has the turbo now, no more supercharger, but the two separate motors driving the front and rear axles is supposed to be pretty weird especially because the gas engine has enough torque to generate torque steer, so if you had it you get torque steer and the rear stepping out at the same time, which must be some crazy GM XBody level poo poo for a brand that prides itself on safety.
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May 24, 2023 22:26
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Throatwarbler posted:I think the t8 drivetrain only has the turbo now, no more supercharger, but the two separate motors driving the front and rear axles is supposed to be pretty weird especially because the gas engine has enough torque to generate torque steer, so if you had it you get torque steer and the rear stepping out at the same time, which must be some crazy GM XBody level poo poo for a brand that prides itself on safety. That tracks with what I felt driving it. Anyway, I agree with every single criticism of modern Volvos as a 3 year owner of one. There is very little reason on paper to pick one over any competitor's equivalent models. Also I find mine to be incredibly comfortable, the prettiest car I see on most days, and its theoretical paper short-comings to be non-issues, and if you value those things in this price range I suggest you go back in time and get a V60 R-Design T5 while they still sold them. 
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May 24, 2023 23:03
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morothar posted:4Runners are… fine. We used to have a 2019 Off-Road Premium, now have a 23 Limited, and had a 2018 LC200 in-between. We also had an SR5 rental for two weeks in 2018. The LC was only a bit more refined than the 23 LTD, especially with all of the continuous upgrades Toyota have been throwing at the 4Runner. Trying to figure out if a 4runner was optioned with kdss is a pain.
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May 25, 2023 01:12
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phosdex posted:Trying to figure out if a 4runner was optioned with kdss is a pain. Totally. At least XReas is tied to trim levels. But hey, your mileage may vary, and your tolerance for nose dives may be higher than mine. Go and test drive one!
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May 25, 2023 03:15
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Throatwarbler posted:I think the t8 drivetrain only has the turbo now, no more supercharger, but the two separate motors driving the front and rear axles is supposed to be pretty weird especially because the gas engine has enough torque to generate torque steer, so if you had it you get torque steer and the rear stepping out at the same time, which must be some crazy GM XBody level poo poo for a brand that prides itself on safety. I have a T8 with the twin charge, but it's never felt unsafe to me, though admittedly I don't go around launching it on a regular basis. The rear electric motor is only 100 hp on mine (160 on the newer models), which isn't enough to get you into too much trouble, and the torque steer from the front engine isn't really noticeable. None of the reviews I read for the car mention those as issues, and the Polestar 1 has basically the same setup only with even more hp in the front and back and Chris Harris liked it enough to buy one. I will say it's fantastic for long highway drives, it's quiet, comfortable, and decently zippy when you want it to be, absolutely eats miles. Also it's a station wagon which looks like pure sex, which is a real achievement.
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May 25, 2023 13:46
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phosdex posted:I wrote a lot but in the end it doesn't matter. This isn't about chasing newer cars. I am very serious about finding a vehicle to go offroad. The x3 m40i did what I bought it to do, and now I'm ready to move on. I look at the offroad trims of the various brands because those seem like a good starting point to find out. Guess I thought maybe someone would have opinions on the 6 or 4 on a cherokee or something. TTR230 is probably your best most fun bet.
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May 25, 2023 14:00
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Since when is Volvo a luxury brand 
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May 25, 2023 15:07
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knox_harrington posted:Since when is Volvo a luxury brand Probably around the time they started selling that version of the XC90 with the business class airline seats instead of the second and third row and a champagne chiller, whenever that was
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May 25, 2023 17:17
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We live in a world of $100k+ pickup trucks, all brands get to be luxury brands if they want to be.
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May 25, 2023 18:30
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knox_harrington posted:Since when is Volvo a luxury brand Volvo and Saab were always entry-level luxury with weird asterisks.
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May 26, 2023 01:09
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In the 70s there was a combo Saab/Subaru/Citroen dealership in Raleigh, NC Presumably their entire sales department was staffed by people who had flunked out of English major grad school. Curiously Citroen left the US market the same year Starbucks was founded I think there used to be a much, much bigger perceived gap between Mercedes-Benz and Everybody Else, too
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May 26, 2023 02:34
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knox_harrington posted:Since when is Volvo a luxury brand If you're talking about the US market Volvo brand, your take is not quite correcto. Volvo has been strongly marketed as a luxury (snobbishly described as entry level near luxo) brand in USA for many years. It's the weird quirky Subaru of luxury brands.
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May 26, 2023 04:34
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Hadlock posted:\ Correct. M-B burned a lot of consumer goodwill when they stopped overbuilding cars and concentrated on Just Good Enough, and it also didn't help that BMW started challenging them in every segment not long before the Japanese got serious about fighting them at the same price points too.
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May 26, 2023 04:39
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