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bull3964 posted:Either VW manages to fix them (which will likely nerf economy or performance or both to the point where they are wholly undesirable) or they will be forced into a buyback program which will ultimately end in the car's destruction since they are essentially illegal imports. The destruction part likely won't happen. I really doubt a buyback program will either. But yes, VW probably just screwed passenger diesel just as badly as Cadillac did in the 1980s.  At least I've got my TDI still
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Sep 23, 2015 18:20
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bull3964 posted:They cannot be allowed to stay on the roads in their current condition, it would undermine every vehicle federalization import law we have and open the door wide open for any sort of gray market import. Every single vehicle has to either be fixed or removed from the road, period. Its unlikely that the EPA is going to punish consumers for VW's crimes, more than likely all that is going to happen is make VW pay a hefty fine and be required to offer consumers the option to have an emissions system fitted or ECU changes made. That and criminal charges. The GT-R comparison is not to the same scale, its not individual imports being hunted down its several million vehicles that would have to be found and crushed. Its on a scale of nothing the EPA has ever done before, and is both financially and physically impossible for them to execute the same action as cracking down on people violating the 25 year Import Law. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:42
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Wasn't that Immigration and Customs that seized the skylines, i think some cases of homeland security also? Yeah, its Customs bag usually for seizures of illegal imports, although I think it falls under Either way, Malone tuning is probably going to be making bank of this. Seriously, if the NHTSA/Customs/EPA started saying 'Welp, turn in your vehicles to be crushed' VW would have to go bankrupt and the effects market wide would be catastrophic. In a country that bailed out GM, Chrysler, and other automakers, I sincerely doubt the EPA is going to be allowed to get that blood thirsty. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:48
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Shifty Pony posted:Well the EPA isn't the ones footing the bill for it and they have VW bent over a $39k per car barrel. I read 500k affected vehicles in the US. Again, the EPA would not likely be willing to go to that level outside of fines for VW and mandatory offers of repairs/flashes. I think, ironically, they would leave it up to VW on how to best deal with the issue of doing so as long as it meets the required year model emissions requirements, and I doubt VW is going to just destroy the vehicles and give people back the money. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:51
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:They were usually seized because of the crash test data and all that jazz, you can make a foreign car emissions compliant. Its just expensive. Ahh nvm see your edit. At this point, I think the EPA is just going to expect VW to fix the issue and pay the fine. I doubt it'll go any further than that. I mean, as if that fine isn't big enough. Not to mention the pending criminal charges.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:53
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bull3964 posted:The question is CAN they fix it? That's the big lingering issue. The cars may very well be undrivable long term with fixes in place. It may very well be cheaper for VW to buyback rather than fix, especially the older ones that have depreciated like mad. They can fix it, because other manufacturers of bigger engines are capable of meeting the emissions standards. VW may offer a buyback, but I don't think it will still approach the scale of what you insinuated with GT-Rs and illegal imports And yes, it likely can be resolved with a simple ECU flash that disables the mapping modification and EGR/DEF changes. That's not the issue at hand, the issue is that the cheat was ever an option to begin with, that's all.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:09
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bull3964 posted:With a ground up design and urea injection. If it was a simple engineering matter to retrofit the current engine to be viable power plant in a consumer vehicle, they would have done it and not risked this in the first place. This went on for seven years. Any simple fix to improve the situation would have been explored by now. They are still unlikely to simply scrap the vehicles.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:06
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fknlo posted:I think if they could fix it without having a noticeable effect on power/mileage/longevity of the engine they would have rolled something out a long time ago. My money is on them putting in the defeat to get the engines out on time and working on a fix to install at a later point. The fact that there was no fix at a later point is pretty telling. I think the assumption being they got preoccupied with producing new vehicles and forgot about the need for the fix.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:13
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go3 posted:Yes they "forgot" about a costly fix that would leave them tied up in lawsuits for a decade Liars/Cheaters tends to have a hard time following up/covering their tracks.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:24
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bull3964 posted:It all depends on the costs involved. A buyback of this scale is not unprecedented. Toyota did it with Tacomas. Not quite. Toyota's buyback was 'conditional' depending upon the amount of rust present on the frame. It was 'their option' whether or not they bought back the vehicle, repaired it, replaced it, or simply warranted it: quote:Should a customer's vehicle experience this condition, they will be requested to present it to any Toyota dealer for inspection. Upon confirmation of rust perforation, Toyota will, at its option, repair or repurchase the vehicle. If it is determined that no rust perforation is present, the extended warranty will be in effect for 15 years from original sale. It also was not mandatory, this was a proactive move by Toyota. No recall was involved. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 20:38
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blugu64 posted:I still think it doesn't matter, that series of VINs should be marked as void and unregisterable, seize crush etc. veedubfreak posted:How about we go crush all the lovely trucks and SUVs that get to basically ignore emissions because they're body on frame. A CR TDI is still cleaner than 99% of the giant trucks and suvs people drive around daily. Just ban diesels in the US unless it's going in a big rig at this point, the amount of emissions bullshit you have to do to the engine to make it "clean" basically makes it not worth doing. There's a reason that basically only 1 company in the US even offers small diesels anymore. Pretty much what he said. Even with the cheat and the emissions issues, its still probably one of the cleanest, most fuel efficient cars in the US right now. The sad part is all the SUVs that are currently dominating the market that couldn't even begin to touch the combined emissions/fuel efficiency of the TDIs, yet they get a pass.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:58
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bull3964 posted:Moot point. The idea is that the prospect of buying back hundreds of thousands of vehicles is an option that's been explored by an automaker and found to be viable which means it's certainly not off the table for VW. No, its not a moot point as one would be a recall, the other was not. Two different scenarios. bull3964 posted:Again, not one has offered another viable course of action if VW admits "Guys, if we do this flash your valves with be completely caked over in carbon after 10k miles and the engine will basically become undrivable." The flash wouldn't cause that, at worse, it would cause the EGR to have clogging issues (yes, they still had an EGR even with the cheat.) The EPA is still unlikely to demand a universal buyback and seizure, they will probably leave that between the consumer and VW, only demanding that VW MUST take steps to mitigate/correct the cheat and offer a buyback at the owners discretion.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:07
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bull3964 posted:You are missing the point entirely. Recall has nothing to do with this. The question is whether or not a carmaker is capble of removing a large number of their vehicles from service due to a flaw. Watch this not happen to this scale. You live in corporate America. Not the EPA's America.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:15
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go3 posted:Theyre absolutely gonna hammer the poo poo out of a foreign company I suspect VW would more likely withdraw from the US market. Which means closing the plants they just recently built in places like Chattanooga. I'm more worried about what that is going to do.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:00
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VelociBacon posted:I don't think you'll see anything nearly this dramatic. They've already scapegoated the CEO who probably had no idea this was even happening in his company and they'll pay a fine and move on. People will forget about this by and large. I hope so. And you are more than likely correct, and like many companies before their fine won't even be 1/10th of max.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:04
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go3 posted:an EPA fine is the least of their worries What, criminal proceedings? Someone will take the fall, sure. Recalls? Something will be figured out.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:07
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go3 posted:The United States is not going to let the EPA hand out a death blow to Volkswagen. It would be the worse thing for US/Germany relations since the Eighth Air Force came to town. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of political sit down over this between Germany and the US.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:06
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VelociBacon posted:I would be. It's not a political issue, Germany has not wronged anyone, it's a private automaker. Volkswagen Group is the 11th largest company in Germany, and this hits the EU as well. It wouldn't surprise me.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:15
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Cockmaster posted:Some have speculated that because of VW, diesel passenger cars basically have no future in the US from here on out. Even with electric cars, diesel had a future. Probably not anymore, thanks VW.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:24
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bull3964 posted:Some analysts are speculating that the extreme drop in stock price could make them a takeover target for Fiat since they've been looking for a partner. Doubt it will happen, but you never know after all the financial realities shake out. Chrysler and VW under the same roof? What could go wrong?
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Sep 24, 2015 02:37
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daslog posted:Yes they did. I was thinking they will stop forever.... I really hope not 
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Sep 24, 2015 03:04
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http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600?rev=1443099960162
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Sep 24, 2015 15:21
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Nothing but moving LA is going to permanently solve LA's smog issues. That or electric cars all around.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:47
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tijag posted:The air quality in LA is so much better now than when I was in elementary school in the 80's. I suppose it's not clean country air, but considering there are a lot more cars now than there were then, and the air is a lot cleaner now than it was then, I'd say that CARB is doing pretty good.  I was trying to be funny.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:03
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via posted:So what would happen if they road-tested every manufacturer's standard-bearing models for fidelity to stated emissions numbers? Cause no one's talking about doing that, just other VW models because of the admitted defeat device. Nope. CARB, the EU, and the EPA have all said they plan to start testing everyone. So, if anyone else is doing it, we'll know soon enough.
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Sep 24, 2015 18:54
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http://fourtitude.com/news/audi-rumors-renders-spy-photos/hackenberg-and-hatz-departures-being-reported-as-part-of-diesel-fiasco/quote:Executive damage at the Volkswagen Group isn’t over yet according to a report from the German publication Bild. Confirmation from Volkswagen has yet to be made, but the Bild report suggests Dr. Ulrich Hackenberg (Audi’s head of R&D) and Wolfgang Hatz (Porsche’s head of R&D) will also leave the company following a supervisory board meeting Friday (tomorrow).
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Sep 24, 2015 21:44
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 Meh, my dad is panicking about his 2010 TDI.But mine is a 98 with a 2001 motor. So it doesn't affect me.
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Sep 25, 2015 13:36
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bull3964 posted:http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/25/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0RP14U20150925 Its been fun VW. Survived World War 2 only to be destroyed by your own hubris.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:09
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8ender posted:Then I buy a heavily discounted TDI to replace my wife's aging Corolla. And then you chip it.
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Sep 26, 2015 00:31
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I Am Not Spor posted:Malone goes public, IPO is in the billions, buys VW. Like I've said, Malone is going to be rolling in dough at the end of this, one way or the other.
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Sep 26, 2015 01:04
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bull3964 posted:Well, I doubt there will be a global buyback. But the 500,000 US vehicles are much more likely, especially if they are trying to repair their reputation. I doubt there will be a buyback. Considering they are facing fines in EU and US now, its not feasible.
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Sep 26, 2015 05:03
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Enforcement is still up to the states, and California is the only one really going that far. The EPA has a hard time getting states to even crack down on coal tunes for trucks, which are also illegal.
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Sep 26, 2015 23:06
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fknlo posted:I'd imagine a lot of places that don't do or care about emissions stuff don't do it because they assume everything is conforming to the standards set by the EPA. Vehicles known to not be conforming to those standards might get a little more scrutiny. The EPA has been trying to get states to crack down in coal tunes without much luck. It doesn't help that the EPA has largely been defanged by the GOP in recent years.
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Sep 27, 2015 16:19
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Also i am willing to bet that making batteries, and then consequently what to do with them after they have been expended is pretty much on par with what a car makes for pollutants. I loved that Top Gear episode where they discussed how all the parts for the Prius are sourced. Cockmaster posted:http://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-dieselgate-proves-its-time-to-go-electric-1733163688 Diesel-Electric! C'mon!
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Sep 28, 2015 14:17
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eeenmachine posted:There are so many variables that pretty much every report ends up getting discredited by someone, but most analysis I've seen put 100% (dirtiest coal possible) coal powered EVs slightly ahead of even the most efficient ICEs emissions wise. When you factor in that power plant pollution usually happens far away from populations instead of in the streets and that most of the country is reducing coal and increasing renewables (a growing number of homeowners offset all their charging with rooftop solar) EVs only get cleaner over time. Also I don't think there is a single scenario where batteries are just chucked in a landfill at the end of their lives as car batteries. Most will be recycled or used for non-auto applications like residential or commercial energy storage. This is not to mention that if an engine is able to idle at a specific speed versus revving up and down to accelerate, it becomes more efficient.
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Sep 28, 2015 14:59
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meatpimp posted:Not surprising, but Audi/Skoda admits to 3 million+ cheating vehicles: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34377443 Let's be honest: Did they even have to announce? Everyone knows it at this point.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:15
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Jealous Cow posted:Lithium ion car Batteries can be recycled: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-be-recycled.htm Most batteries are recyclable, its whether or not its profitable (or required) to do so.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:23
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Jealous Cow posted:Or one hopes. Agreed. Right now its still somewhat of a niche market, give it time...
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Sep 28, 2015 17:08
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Uthor posted:Have EVs been on the market long enough to get a good look at how they perform on the used car market? Either cost wise or mechanically. There's plenty of people who can't or won't buy new cars and I'm curious how an EV will work in 10+ years. That's part of the problem: While the Prius holds its resale value due to its gasoline motor backup, we're not really sure how well the used market for EVs is going to work, especially as the primary driver for used EVs may be battery replacements.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:34
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Shifty Pony posted:And that works fine for small numbers of cars. You'd need a solar array larger than most suburban planned communities and storage capable of peaking at half a gigawatt to match the energy transferring capability of just one truck stop along a busy interstate. Somebody call nuclear? 
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Sep 28, 2015 18:41
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