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VelociBacon posted:It's a huge improvement over the shotglass of arsenic represented by the people driving SUV's and trucks. If someone has the energy to be upset about something as globally unimportant as this VW emissions thing they should guide it toward lobbying for industry to limit it's carbon footprint. You are missing the magnitude of this whole deal because they were caught intentionally lying for years. The "intentionally lying" part is the damming part.
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Sep 23, 2015 05:13
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KakerMix posted:You are missing the magnitude of this whole deal because they were caught intentionally lying for years. The "intentionally lying" part is the damming part. I agree it's morally inexcusable, I just don't feel it constitutes an environmental crisis.
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Sep 23, 2015 05:14
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VelociBacon posted:I agree it's morally inexcusable, I just don't feel it constitutes an environmental crisis. My 92 dodge d350 disagrees most flatulently
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Sep 23, 2015 05:31
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VelociBacon posted:It's a huge improvement over the shotglass of arsenic represented by the people driving SUV's and trucks. If someone has the energy to be upset about something as globally unimportant as this VW emissions thing they should guide it toward lobbying for industry to limit it's carbon footprint. I guess I'm just not seeing why that matters in the slightest. VelociBacon posted:I agree it's morally inexcusable, I just don't feel it constitutes an environmental crisis. Well it calls into question a whole lot of other things. They got away with it for years. What else were they hiding? Who else might be doing something similar? Is this another lovely industry standard? Probably not, but still kind of a big deal: "USAToday posted:The technology tricks regulators into believing that four-cylinder diesel cars comply with emissions standards, but the cars are actually emitting harmful pollutants at rates of up to 40 times acceptable standards. Godholio fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 06:25
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Godholio posted:I guess I'm just not seeing why that matters in the slightest. Trying to improve anywhere that isn't the worst is a waste of time and you should feel bad obviously.
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Sep 23, 2015 08:13
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Godholio posted:Who else might be doing something similar? Everyone, all the time. Welcome to humanity.
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Sep 23, 2015 14:17
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Aaaand the CEO, Winterkorn, resigned. Live (text, not video) coverage at the Guardian.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:46
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Aaaand the CEO, Winterkorn, resigned. Live (text, not video) coverage at the Guardian. "Finally, I can drive a BMW"
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Sep 23, 2015 16:47
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So when will this start driving down dealer prices? I assume at a minimum traffic will drop off due to the bad press and uncertainty. Kinda want to replace my CX-5 with a Touraeg.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:22
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Jealous Cow posted:So when will this start driving down dealer prices? I assume at a minimum traffic will drop off due to the bad press and uncertainty. get one of the old v10 tdis, those things were so fun.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:28
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:get one of the old v10 tdis, those things were so fun. They are pretty hard to find.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:31
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Jealous Cow posted:So when will this start driving down dealer prices? I assume at a minimum traffic will drop off due to the bad press and uncertainty.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:04
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bizwank posted:"can't wait to scoop up a TDI!" in this and many other threads. Likely not going to happen. Either VW manages to fix them (which will likely nerf economy or performance or both to the point where they are wholly undesirable) or they will be forced into a buyback program which will ultimately end in the car's destruction since they are essentially illegal imports. VW basically has no future in diesel in the US from here on out.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:18
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bull3964 posted:Either VW manages to fix them (which will likely nerf economy or performance or both to the point where they are wholly undesirable) or they will be forced into a buyback program which will ultimately end in the car's destruction since they are essentially illegal imports. The destruction part likely won't happen. I really doubt a buyback program will either. But yes, VW probably just screwed passenger diesel just as badly as Cadillac did in the 1980s.  At least I've got my TDI still
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Sep 23, 2015 18:20
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CommieGIR posted:The destruction part likely won't happen. I really doubt a buyback program will either. But yes, VW probably just screwed passenger diesel just as badly as Cadillac did in the 1980s. It really depends on if they can fix them. There's no mincing of words here. Every affected TDI is an illegal import right now with no better status than you coworker's cousin's totally legit GT-R that they seized and crushed for no reason. The only difference is scale. They cannot be allowed to stay on the roads in their current condition, it would undermine every vehicle federalization import law we have and open the door wide open for any sort of gray market import. Every single vehicle has to either be fixed or removed from the road, period.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:32
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bull3964 posted:They cannot be allowed to stay on the roads in their current condition, it would undermine every vehicle federalization import law we have and open the door wide open for any sort of gray market import. Every single vehicle has to either be fixed or removed from the road, period. Its unlikely that the EPA is going to punish consumers for VW's crimes, more than likely all that is going to happen is make VW pay a hefty fine and be required to offer consumers the option to have an emissions system fitted or ECU changes made. That and criminal charges. The GT-R comparison is not to the same scale, its not individual imports being hunted down its several million vehicles that would have to be found and crushed. Its on a scale of nothing the EPA has ever done before, and is both financially and physically impossible for them to execute the same action as cracking down on people violating the 25 year Import Law. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:42
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CommieGIR posted:Its unlikely that the EPA is going to punish consumers for VW's crimes, more than likely all that is going to happen is make VW pay a hefty fine and be required to offer consumers the option to have an emissions system fitted or ECU changes made. That and criminal charges. Wasn't that Immigration and Customs that seized the skylines, i think some cases of homeland security also? I agree though, EPA will likely do nothing to the consumer other than a mandatory reflash /fix/etc. If that's the case Malone tuning just got backlogged for like a year.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:47
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Wasn't that Immigration and Customs that seized the skylines, i think some cases of homeland security also? Yeah, its Customs bag usually for seizures of illegal imports, although I think it falls under Either way, Malone tuning is probably going to be making bank of this. Seriously, if the NHTSA/Customs/EPA started saying 'Welp, turn in your vehicles to be crushed' VW would have to go bankrupt and the effects market wide would be catastrophic. In a country that bailed out GM, Chrysler, and other automakers, I sincerely doubt the EPA is going to be allowed to get that blood thirsty. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:48
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Well the EPA isn't the ones footing the bill for it and they have VW bent over a $39k per car barrel. I read 500k affected vehicles in the US. I eagerly await VW opting for the overly complex German Engineering solution and doing some ridiculous like an engine and fuel system swap in all cars. 2.0s for everyone! 
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Sep 23, 2015 18:50
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Shifty Pony posted:Well the EPA isn't the ones footing the bill for it and they have VW bent over a $39k per car barrel. I read 500k affected vehicles in the US. Again, the EPA would not likely be willing to go to that level outside of fines for VW and mandatory offers of repairs/flashes. I think, ironically, they would leave it up to VW on how to best deal with the issue of doing so as long as it meets the required year model emissions requirements, and I doubt VW is going to just destroy the vehicles and give people back the money. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:51
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, its Customs bag usually for seizures of illegal imports, although I think it falls under They were usually seized because of the crash test data and all that jazz, you can make a foreign car emissions compliant. Its just expensive. Ahh nvm see your edit. fake edit: anyone here have the malone dpf and egr delete / with dsg tune and fuel tune? Is it really as good as literally every review says? Also, anyone know of a good custom tuner in the PNW?
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Sep 23, 2015 18:52
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:They were usually seized because of the crash test data and all that jazz, you can make a foreign car emissions compliant. Its just expensive. Ahh nvm see your edit. At this point, I think the EPA is just going to expect VW to fix the issue and pay the fine. I doubt it'll go any further than that. I mean, as if that fine isn't big enough. Not to mention the pending criminal charges.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:53
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The question is CAN they fix it? That's the big lingering issue. The cars may very well be undrivable long term with fixes in place. It may very well be cheaper for VW to buyback rather than fix, especially the older ones that have depreciated like mad. It's a complex issue that hasn't been seen on this scale before. I do think people are being a bit dismissive and naive to think this is going to be a simple ECU flash that they can pay someone to revert and life will go on as normal.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:03
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Will this affect my coilpacks? 
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Sep 23, 2015 19:05
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bull3964 posted:The question is CAN they fix it? That's the big lingering issue. The cars may very well be undrivable long term with fixes in place. It may very well be cheaper for VW to buyback rather than fix, especially the older ones that have depreciated like mad. They can fix it, because other manufacturers of bigger engines are capable of meeting the emissions standards. VW may offer a buyback, but I don't think it will still approach the scale of what you insinuated with GT-Rs and illegal imports And yes, it likely can be resolved with a simple ECU flash that disables the mapping modification and EGR/DEF changes. That's not the issue at hand, the issue is that the cheat was ever an option to begin with, that's all.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:09
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It won't shock me if California twiddles its emission testing to catch unflashed diesels. Apparently the disable trigger includes unturned steering wheel + distance driven + variations in speed.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:25
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During the test the tech will have to sit in the seat turning the steering wheel and making "vroom" noises.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:29
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It won't shock me if California twiddles its emission testing to catch unflashed diesels. Apparently the disable trigger includes unturned steering wheel + distance driven + variations in speed. hahaha holy poo poo. I can't wait to see how high up this went. (as in explicit knowledge of what was actually being done, not just 'ok we figured out how to meet EPA standards *WINK*WINK*)
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Sep 23, 2015 19:33
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Dick Trauma posted:During the test the tech will have to sit in the seat turning the steering wheel and making "vroom" noises. Techs will now be required to respond in exasperation to an automated phone call replicating their parents.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:39
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bull3964 posted:The question is CAN they fix it? I still think it doesn't matter, that series of VINs should be marked as void and unregisterable, seize crush etc. Yes it sucks for the consumer, go sue VW.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:48
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blugu64 posted:I still think it doesn't matter, that series of VINs should be marked as void and unregisterable, seize crush etc. lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 23, 2015 19:52
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CommieGIR posted:They can fix it, because other manufacturers of bigger engines are capable of meeting the emissions standards. VW may offer a buyback, but I don't think it will still approach the scale of what you insinuated with GT-Rs and illegal imports Which bigger engines? the ones that go in trucks and are probably not subject to the same standards as a TDI car? If they could fix it with a reflash, I think the update they tried over the summer would have worked. We're looking at another tune, a retrofit kit for urea, decrease in mpg and engine performance, all of which are probably pretty expensive to install on the cars at this point.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:56
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CommieGIR posted:They can fix it, because other manufacturers of bigger engines are capable of meeting the emissions standards. With a ground up design and urea injection. If it was a simple engineering matter to retrofit the current engine to be viable power plant in a consumer vehicle, they would have done it and not risked this in the first place. This went on for seven years. Any simple fix to improve the situation would have been explored by now. A simple ECU flash is likely to cause massive changes in drivability and anything beyond that (urea retrofit) is going to be massively expensive and invasive. There's no easy escape for this.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:59
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bull3964 posted:With a ground up design and urea injection. If it was a simple engineering matter to retrofit the current engine to be viable power plant in a consumer vehicle, they would have done it and not risked this in the first place. This went on for seven years. Any simple fix to improve the situation would have been explored by now. They are still unlikely to simply scrap the vehicles.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:06
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I could see California refusing to renew registrations at some point though, particularly if the EPA lets Cash Money settle this at the federal level.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:09
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bull3964 posted:The question is CAN they fix it? I think if they could fix it without having a noticeable effect on power/mileage/longevity of the engine they would have rolled something out a long time ago. My money is on them putting in the defeat to get the engines out on time and working on a fix to install at a later point. The fact that there was no fix at a later point is pretty telling. Jealous Cow posted:I could see California refusing to renew registrations at some point though, particularly if the EPA lets Cash Money settle this at the federal level. Pretty sure this is already being talked about. Won't be able to renew registration on an affected car without whatever update they come up with. Tuning sounds like a great option until you realize you're probably going to have to send your ECU somewhere to get it done.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:12
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fknlo posted:I think if they could fix it without having a noticeable effect on power/mileage/longevity of the engine they would have rolled something out a long time ago. My money is on them putting in the defeat to get the engines out on time and working on a fix to install at a later point. The fact that there was no fix at a later point is pretty telling. I think the assumption being they got preoccupied with producing new vehicles and forgot about the need for the fix.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:13
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Yes they "forgot" about a costly fix that would leave them tied up in lawsuits for a decade
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Sep 23, 2015 20:20
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go3 posted:Yes they "forgot" about a costly fix that would leave them tied up in lawsuits for a decade Liars/Cheaters tends to have a hard time following up/covering their tracks.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:24
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CommieGIR posted:They are still unlikely to simply scrap the vehicles. It all depends on the costs involved. A buyback of this scale is not unprecedented. Toyota did it with Tacomas. If the cost of fix + cost of class action suit due to 'loss of functionality' + cost of increased maintenance is even close to the value of the vehicle, a buyback is going to be preferred from VW's perspective. It's better for PR, they won't have to re-certify the fuel economy on all those models, and I'm sure the EPA will prefer it as well since it gets the problematic vehicles off the road so they may be willing to cut them a break on the fine if they do so.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:33
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