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Yuns
Aug 19, 2000
Old Man of the Forums

WayneCampbell posted:

I have a concept question. How do I effectively control the opponet's bottom leg from top half?
Step to the side.

If you do so in the direction of your free leg, this brings the bottom leg knee down to the mat where it can be controlled.

If you do so in the direction of you trapped leg this points the bottom leg knee up to the ceiling (and also helps lose a z guard shield) and you can then shuck the knees by and drop back into a knee slide.

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Novum
May 26, 2012

That's how we roll

I wish I wasn't so bad at bjj so i would learn how to submit someone instead of sprawl and brawling everyone all the time. Do i need gi based training or is nogi cool

Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


Novum posted:

I wish I wasn't so bad at bjj so i would learn how to submit someone instead of sprawl and brawling everyone all the time. Do i need gi based training or is nogi cool

Both are good friend.

spacetoaster
Feb 10, 2014



Novum posted:

I wish I wasn't so bad at bjj so i would learn how to submit someone instead of sprawl and brawling everyone all the time. Do i need gi based training or is nogi cool

My gym does both. Just different times. You pick the classes you want to go to.

And there's good reasons to learn both. I mean, if you ever get in a real fight the person will probably be wearing clothes and not a spandex bodysuit.

Also, people, wash your poo poo. Most washers have a quick wash setting that'll clean it pretty quick. Then just hang it up til the next day.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Drewjitsu posted:

1) depending on ruleset, player b has to be more concerned with heel hooks. But I digress. Without some form of attachment by B, player A can most definitely stand up to work and open guard pass/game. (I think? Depending on the amount of pressure you can generate with the knee, it might be difficult to just stand up.)

2) if player A is confident in his ability to to smash pass, they might prefer to work passes from z guard. At the end of the day, z guard is a half guard variant, so guy on top is in the superior position. Standing up resets things to a more neutral position.

So how horribly wrong am I on this?

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

I think you can only stand if you can make them uncross their feet, first. And if they curl their toes around your bottom leg, you can't stand either (at least not easily):

In the top image he's keeping his top leg unclamped to show details, but the top knee would be clamped down hard. Craig Jones uses both interchangably depending on what he's doing, Lachlan Giles always does the toe-curl because he uses a higher knee position.

See, when we were playing with this yesterday, I was letting my partner (who is a superior grappler to me in nearly every way) do everything he could to close up and tighten that z/half guard, even to the extent that he was getting pressure around my hip with the feet crossed. It didn't feel like he could do anything to prevent me from pulling my weight back and threading the knee of trapped leg through. If he continued to hold on with the legs, he could sometimes hold onto my foot and calf once I was standing up.

I wish I had kept better notes of what I was doing - I just went and pantomimed the escape motion a few times, but I'm not 100% sure this is how we were doing it (Left leg trapped): I control my opponent's top ankle as much as possible with my left hand and the bottom knee with my right. My right knee comes back 45 deg, left foot comes up to the ball, bringing left knee up to a pseudo combat base forcing opponent's top leg up, right leg pivots into standing while, dropping the left knee down onto opponent's bottom leg, then left knee comes up. I'm left standing at a 45 degree angle to my opponent. At none of these points am I really dropping a lot of weight down through my left leg - that's just the general path my knee follows to wiggle out.

Does that make sense and seem plausible the way I've written it?

When I write it out, I wonder if there's a point at which my opponent might send me backwards and to my left by swinging his legs across once my left leg comes up, but I've been doing this to the two best bottom game guys in my club. It could be that they're trying something like that but not succeeding, as one of the things that I'm pretty good at is resisting and avoiding little trips and dumps like the dummy/lumberjack sweep. The one guy who I haven't asked about this yet may also be letting me up to get a heel hook, which he has done more than a couple times.

heeebrew
Sep 6, 2007

Weed smokin', joint tokin', fake Jew of the Weed thread


Heard Geo had the flu during EBI and was puking between his matches. Respect to Calestine though. That was the most exciting EBI IMO. Lots of quick finishes. I was REALLY impressed with Nick Honstein surviving and getting out of Ben Eddy's RG attacks.

Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.


CommonShore posted:

See, when we were playing with this yesterday, I was letting my partner (who is a superior grappler to me in nearly every way) do everything he could to close up and tighten that z/half guard, even to the extent that he was getting pressure around my hip with the feet crossed. It didn't feel like he could do anything to prevent me from pulling my weight back and threading the knee of trapped leg through. If he continued to hold on with the legs, he could sometimes hold onto my foot and calf once I was standing up.

I wish I had kept better notes of what I was doing - I just went and pantomimed the escape motion a few times, but I'm not 100% sure this is how we were doing it (Left leg trapped): I control my opponent's top ankle as much as possible with my left hand and the bottom knee with my right. My right knee comes back 45 deg, left foot comes up to the ball, bringing left knee up to a pseudo combat base forcing opponent's top leg up, right leg pivots into standing while, dropping the left knee down onto opponent's bottom leg, then left knee comes up. I'm left standing at a 45 degree angle to my opponent. At none of these points am I really dropping a lot of weight down through my left leg - that's just the general path my knee follows to wiggle out.

Does that make sense and seem plausible the way I've written it?

When I write it out, I wonder if there's a point at which my opponent might send me backwards and to my left by swinging his legs across once my left leg comes up, but I've been doing this to the two best bottom game guys in my club. It could be that they're trying something like that but not succeeding, as one of the things that I'm pretty good at is resisting and avoiding little trips and dumps like the dummy/lumberjack sweep. The one guy who I haven't asked about this yet may also be letting me up to get a heel hook, which he has done more than a couple times.

So like a combination of the two following passes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1FF3dgqhs4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPgQ5Uxs2Hk

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Drewjitsu posted:

So like a combination of the two following passes?

More like the Mendes one, but moving up and away into a standing position instead of using it to slice forward.

Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.


CommonShore posted:

More like the Mendes one, but moving up and away into a standing position instead of using it to slice forward.

Neat!

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014





Play around with it at some point, if you remember, to see if you can find it and note the flaws in my understanding. For the last couple of weeks I've been preferring to take the standing position and looking to pass vs entering my opponents' guards. I basically found this as a way of standing up out of z-guard because I was getting promptly destroyed whenever I stayed there against one buddy.

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



So you’re essentially using a leg weave pass to stand up? Is your arm still trapped when you stand? I tangle that arm up pretty hard when they weave and I imagine you’d be kinda vulnerable?

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




02-6611-0142-1 posted:

So you’re essentially using a leg weave pass to stand up? Is your arm still trapped when you stand? I tangle that arm up pretty hard when they weave and I imagine you’d be kinda vulnerable?

I never put my arm in for the full weave - if my left leg is trapped, my left arm controls their ankle.

Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.


CommonShore posted:

Play around with it at some point, if you remember, to see if you can find it and note the flaws in my understanding. For the last couple of weeks I've been preferring to take the standing position and looking to pass vs entering my opponents' guards. I basically found this as a way of standing up out of z-guard because I was getting promptly destroyed whenever I stayed there against one buddy.

Yeah, z-guard is annoying, but I get around it by being a dirty leglocker (the threat of a heel hook really causes most people to bail out on the position) or smash passing it. For all the grief that I give the other people with my z-guard, it hasn't really caught on too much at my gym.

I'll keep the stand up in mind though, that seems cool.

EDIT: also, from what I understand about the counterplay on the bottom (aka how not to get heel hooked) is 1) be alive to the threat of the opponent raising their knee behind your z-guard and bail out accordingly, 2) crossing your ankles also prevents the heel hook - looking at the lachlan guiles vs Craig Jones match, when Craig goes into z-guard against a known heel hook guy, he crosses his feet so that the bottom leg protects the top one (which is the one that gets attacked from that position).

Drewjitsu fucked around with this message at Feb 20, 2018 around 01:43

WayneCampbell
Oct 7, 2005
You got me a gunrack?!? I don't even own a gun, let alone alone enough to nessecitate an entire rack.

Novum posted:

I wish I wasn't so bad at bjj so i would learn how to submit someone instead of sprawl and brawling everyone all the time. Do i need gi based training or is nogi cool

Both. It's like two different sports. They're both fun and compliment different aspects of your grappling. Gi sharpens defense (hard to escape subs), no gi sharpens offense (easier to escape subs).

Yuns posted:

Step to the side.

If you do so in the direction of your free leg, this brings the bottom leg knee down to the mat where it can be controlled.

If you do so in the direction of you trapped leg this points the bottom leg knee up to the ceiling (and also helps lose a z guard shield) and you can then shuck the knees by and drop back into a knee slide.

Thanks

Whiskey A Go Go!
May 7, 2007

For legal reasons, the answer is no. For anecdotal reasons...sure why not.

CommonShore posted:

The only reasons that anyone has had a dramatic split from my school is 1) being dangerous in rolls, even with new people, even when told to stop 2) decides that being friends with danger roll guy is important and leaves with him, and 3) being creepy to female members.



I think those are all good reasons. A good hugfight club, even if we're small potatoes.

I am glad I am not a female in grappling. My girlfriend has told me so many stories of the new creepy guys who come in and can't handle fighting women. One guy asked the head instructor how can he fight a woman without getting a boner and grinding it on her. This resulted in him getting kicked out.

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000
Old Man of the Forums

CommonShore posted:

See, when we were playing with this yesterday, I was letting my partner (who is a superior grappler to me in nearly every way) do everything he could to close up and tighten that z/half guard, even to the extent that he was getting pressure around my hip with the feet crossed. It didn't feel like he could do anything to prevent me from pulling my weight back and threading the knee of trapped leg through. If he continued to hold on with the legs, he could sometimes hold onto my foot and calf once I was standing up.

I wish I had kept better notes of what I was doing - I just went and pantomimed the escape motion a few times, but I'm not 100% sure this is how we were doing it (Left leg trapped): I control my opponent's top ankle as much as possible with my left hand and the bottom knee with my right. My right knee comes back 45 deg, left foot comes up to the ball, bringing left knee up to a pseudo combat base forcing opponent's top leg up, right leg pivots into standing while, dropping the left knee down onto opponent's bottom leg, then left knee comes up. I'm left standing at a 45 degree angle to my opponent. At none of these points am I really dropping a lot of weight down through my left leg - that's just the general path my knee follows to wiggle out.

Does that make sense and seem plausible the way I've written it?

When I write it out, I wonder if there's a point at which my opponent might send me backwards and to my left by swinging his legs across once my left leg comes up, but I've been doing this to the two best bottom game guys in my club. It could be that they're trying something like that but not succeeding, as one of the things that I'm pretty good at is resisting and avoiding little trips and dumps like the dummy/lumberjack sweep. The one guy who I haven't asked about this yet may also be letting me up to get a heel hook, which he has done more than a couple times.
Sorry CommonShore. I've been thinking of a response to your question but haven't finished writing it up. I'm not a z guard/shield guy so don't want to give any misinformation but do want to share my thoughts on the issue. I will post it in a couple of days.

spb
Nov 11, 2013



Whiskey A Go Go! posted:

I am glad I am not a female in grappling. My girlfriend has told me so many stories of the new creepy guys who come in and can't handle fighting women. One guy asked the head instructor how can he fight a woman without getting a boner and grinding it on her. This resulted in him getting kicked out.

Jesus. Knowing that the girl is trying to kill you and not have sex with you helps to not get a boner.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




Whiskey A Go Go! posted:

I am glad I am not a female in grappling. My girlfriend has told me so many stories of the new creepy guys who come in and can't handle fighting women. One guy asked the head instructor how can he fight a woman without getting a boner and grinding it on her. This resulted in him getting kicked out.

Our gym has started a women's only class, and it's crazy loving popular. I'm actually quite proud of how open and welcoming our club has become to non-stereotypical grapplers. Three years ago when I joined it was "bad boyz fite club" and now, between a few of the "Bad boyz" having kids and growing up, some bad elements being removed, and a few confident women coming in and changing the culture, it's a totally new place. Even the regular bjj classes are getting up to 25% women, and the kickboxing classes are even surpassing 50% on many nights! The head instructor - who is great but kind of a passive personality - realized how much healthier this makes the environment for everyone, and he's now totally on board loving how busy and happy his school is.

Yuns posted:

Sorry CommonShore. I've been thinking of a response to your question but haven't finished writing it up. I'm not a z guard/shield guy so don't want to give any misinformation but do want to share my thoughts on the issue. I will post it in a couple of days.

No rush. I played around with the position last night and it's seeming even simpler than yesterday when I was posting. Nobody who I tried with - white, blue, purple, or brown belt - could stop me from just standing up out of Z-guard without some kind of serious loving control of my upper body. Feet crossing and relative size made no difference whatsoever. I just pop up on my free foot, switch my hips a bit, and the knee is free.

I guess the new version of the central question is "why on earth would I want to stay in someone's Z-guard if I can get out that easily?"

omg chael crash
Jul 8, 2012




02-6611-0142-1 posted:

By the way, these shirts are finally available:



http://wyrdapparel.com
Checkout code HIREDGOONS for 10% off.

I've tried to make shipping as competitive as possible but I'm sending from Australia which is essentially a fiery wasteland at the end of the earth, so the rates might be a bit high. I've calculated prices for Australia, USA, Canada and UK. Mainland Europe and South America I've just put averaged pricing on, but if you send a message I'll calculate better specific prices for your country.

Looks like you're Instagram jiu-jitsu meme famous:

Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


Just got my south american ground karate patch. Very satisfied

02-6611-0142-1
Sep 30, 2004



omg chael crash posted:

Looks like you're Instagram jiu-jitsu meme famous:



Yeah, reddit went nuts for it! Now I have to transition from "guy starting a basement business" (which is easy) into "guy successfully maintaining a basement business" (which is probably way harder)

Digital Jedi
May 28, 2007

Wow....that feels good



Fallen Rib

Defenestrategy posted:

Just got my south american ground karate patch. Very satisfied

Got mine last week and had to sown on professional and so far it's a big hit at my gym.

I love it

vvvv Will second that long-sleeved rashgaurd

Digital Jedi fucked around with this message at Feb 21, 2018 around 03:08

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014




I would buy a knee reap rashguard; doubly so if it's long-sleeved.

butros
Aug 2, 2007

I believe the signs of the reptile master

Ooh ooh! Is there a chance for a South American Ground Karate rashguard?

:takemymoney.bmp:

Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


butros posted:

Ooh ooh! Is there a chance for a South American Ground Karate rashguard?

:takemymoney.bmp:

This please.

Drewjitsu
Sep 2, 2007

Muay Thai is great but Buttscoot-Shin-to-Balls Style is undeniably better.


Make it a longsleeve, and I'm yours forever. (Also if you make satan spats, doubly yours forever.)

JaySB
Nov 16, 2006





02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Yeah, reddit went nuts for it! Now I have to transition from "guy starting a basement business" (which is easy) into "guy successfully maintaining a basement business" (which is probably way harder)

If you have any desire to learn about sourcing items from China and getting them warehoused in the US let me know.

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VRViperII
Mar 17, 2009


02-6611-0142-1 posted:

Yeah, reddit went nuts for it! Now I have to transition from "guy starting a basement business" (which is easy) into "guy successfully maintaining a basement business" (which is probably way harder)

Great fit, good material, correct length. Very happy with mine thanks. My brother and I were a big hit matching in them at the weekend tourney.

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