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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





The World Inferno posted:

Anyone want to take a stab at Eren's logic here? I blame reading this only once a month, but I only feel like I have a cursory idea of what he's thinking, is it "well, it's either us or them so no mercy?"

It's... complicated.

Eren's seen these memories for years, and every time he's tried to go off script, things keep going forward like they always were going to. (It's likely that a lot of his odd Mikasa moments were trying to keep things from being what he knew they'd be.) He's had years of dealing with the almost certain knowledge that, one day, he'd start the Rumbling, that he'd have friends (Sasha at minimum, probably more) die due to his actions, and that he'd have freely chosen his path.

(His yelling at Hange is relevant here. He wanted an out, something to say in bold "Good news, Eren! We'll all be fine if you don't kill millions of innocent people!" and she didn't come through.)

As the deadline got closer, and the world seemed to lean more and more towards genocide, he was more and more convinced this was inevitable us-or-them, because he knew he'd decide to wipe everyone out in the future. Basically, it's precognition reinforcing existing reasoning.

And it's even worse, because before he knew all the reasons he'd do it, he knew he'd go on a killing rampage, which meant he had to fill in every reason he might, had to admit every other possible motive... which lead to his telling the kid this chapter that one of his motives was probably just a childish wish to have an empty world to explore. This unforgivably petty thing, as bad as Reiner's desire to be a hero, with even worse results. He knows that that isn't worth killing over. But... he saw it happen anyway.

(There's also some major Historia related motives in the mix somewhere. Making it so she wouldn't have to become a titan, trapped in the cycle of child eating parent, was his reason for being sure the 50 year plan wasn't even an option for avoiding the rumbling.)

chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Aug 5, 2020

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





iamsosmrt posted:

Not that I think they'll go into this detail, but I personally believe it's linear rather than a time loop. Meaning, I think Eren's getting information and behavioral mods (from cannibalizing more Titans) as time goes on and creating new alternate dimensions with each action he takes. Mostly because I just don't think Grisha would've gone down his path had he truly known what Eren would do beforehand.

Except he did. And he knew, from how he immediately told Zeke that Eren needed to be stopped.

...And that Eren wouldn't be stopped.

There's something Grisha saw at the end of this Hell that made him go along with Eren's plan despite his misgivings. Some future memory that convinced him to keep moving forward, despite knowing and hating the evil his younger son would do.

There's something beyond Hell, although I don't think Eren knows how he's getting there any better than the reader does. His power just gives him snatches of memory, letting him know what happened without knowing why or how.

(Funny thing is, the most optimistic thing about the cycle of hate prior to this comes from Kenny, of all people. His friendship with Uri was described as a miracle, and it even bore fruit, letting Mikasa and Levi live free of the persecution that hounded their families.

...Of course, Kenny also said that if Uri hadn't been strong enough to stop him, Kenny would have killed him and poo poo in his skull, so it's not like miracles come easy in Attack on Titan.)

One thing that's optimistic-given-the-circumstances about that video is that it suggests there's still people living in the outside world. The bird's lizard disguise wouldn't make much sense in a world without lizards.

Isamaya said that releasing the last panel early was inspired by Breaking Bad. The way the show told you something was going to happen at the start of the season and let you slowly piece things together as it went along. We have all these clues, all this information... but there's still the question of how it all fits.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Asuron posted:

This is a good summary of how itís all going. The worst part mustíve been having to finally accept it and thatís why we get the cold , detached Eren we saw. He gave in to the inevitability, that in the end heíll never be free the way he wanted to be and is why he reacts so angrily when Armin calls him a slave.

He tried to break the loop, but it kept going on no matter what he did and he knows now that he was always a slave to the events now occurring. Much like Reiner , now he has regressed into another personality (his child years) because in the end he simply couldnít handle what heís done.

Want an extra layer of kicker to that one?

That very scene has Eren fighting against fate as hard as humanly possible. He's lying to his closest childhood friends, hurting them, in a last desperate attempt to change something, anything. If Mikasa just ditches the scarf, the future would be different. And, for a moment, she did.

...And then she took it back.

Eren's losing to fate, but he's still trying to fight it. Which makes the accusation he's enslaved hit even harder.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Lamebot posted:

Grisha never learned his lesson and sure did pay for it. First child he used as a tool betrays him to Marley for his own path to Eldian restoration and the second one goes even worse and gets most of the world genocided. Great Dad #1 would sire a child again a+++++

Hey, Eren hasn't destroyed most of the world... yet. He might not even cross the fifty percent mark!

Really, it's hard to blame Grisha for trying again. Sure, his first attempt went incredibly bad, but he was a terrible father that time, using his son as a tool and letting someone else take the all important role of teaching Zeke how to play baseball.

It's understandable that he assumed raising Eren like a normal kid would go better. And by the time he started to realize just what he had on his hands, Eren was already teaching the neighbor kids about the cool crime of manslaughter.

Adopting Mikasa, though? That one's a clear lack of pattern recognition.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Conspiratiorist posted:

Eren intervened. The point of the scene is that in the future he saw he'd help the kid - but helping him would be hypocritical since he's going to kill them all, so what's the point?

So he tries to walk away, but he can't bring himself to do so. He compares himself to Reiner, a "half-assing piece of poo poo" for caring and getting involved despite having resolved himself to massacring them.

I've said it before, but I believe the theme here is that it's impossible to change the future Eren has seen - not because of some immutable order to the universe, but because every vision he's seen is a consequence of the decisions he's made leading up to them, and given the same circumstances he'll always make the same choices. It's just who he is.

It's the center of him comparing himself with Reiner, and his big speech to Falco.

It's not clear if anything else was possible. If he did nothing, he might still go along the same path. His only real choice was if he was going to be forced through this, or if he'd volunteer.

By volunteering, he keeps some measure of freedom, but also all of the guilt. Like Reiner, he's a real piece of poo poo. But by choosing to plunge in... he can see something beyond this Hell. And that's the only way he's able to keep moving forward.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Minion of Freya posted:

A wild thought occurred, Eren had to touch Historia a lot to conceive a child. That must have let let tap into his full titan power of future memory access. This poo poo could end like that one Nick Cage future sight movie. The tears from episode 1 was Eren crying during sex, because of course he does. It would be a really hacky way to go about it, but we haven't seen how it went down when Eren had to touch Historia for what I'm assuming was more than a couple seconds. Does it not matter because by that point there was nothing left for Eren to see?

Assuming you're making an actual theory rather than a dumb joke, that seems to be ignoring what's in front of us right now for a lot of unsupported assumptions.

Currently, Kid Eren is in paths seeing freedom, which probably means he'll go on to see some of the actual consequences of his actions, and maybe the deaths of some of his closest friends. That's going to be the dream he woke up from at the start of the series that made him cry. (Mikasa's odds of survival really depends if we lean harder on Kruger's words or Eren trying to get rid of the scarf).

No weird assumptions about Eren crying during sex required.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





redsniper posted:

Whatever happened with the story of the miner?
Was there wall material under the entire walled territory? We didn't see titans erupting out of the ground when the rumbling happened.
Is the entire island titans? It's plugging up the entrance to the hollow Earth. Everyone is trapped on the inside which is why the continents are mirrored. The whole Earth is the real walls.
I've been waiting on this Chekov's gun since S1. Isayama doesn't seem like the type to set something up and then just forget...

It explains how millions of titans fit in a space supposedly only big enough for hundreds of thousands, at minimum. So that's handy.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Bilirubin posted:

Just binge read volume 125 to present and holy poo poo

When the main character's head gets blown off with a sniper rifle comes at the start and things only escalate from there, you know you're in for a good time.

It's pretty interesting to look up the reactions to the End exhibit when it first showed up. The rumbling getting this far was not seen as a very likely event.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





In It For The Tank posted:

Zeke can't die until Connie and Levi get their respective revenges.

He's probably somewhere inside Eren's titan form. His last appearance was looking defeated in the background of one of the shots in the Paths Dimension during Eren's declaration.

I mean, I think we haven't seen the last of him either, but Attack on Titan very rarely lets people get what they want.

And speaking of dead people! I was looking at old talk about Willy Tybur, and a lot of people seemed to think he's completely full of poo poo... but I'm inclined to think he really had done some good for Eldians in Marley.

It's not just the last act of his life, to be clear. It's more comparing flashbacks to the Marley arc. Within Zeke's lifetime, opinions seem to have shifted a bit. There's still a lot of people within Marley treating them as devils, but you also see Panzer Squad openly crushing on Pieck, and they don't seem to suffer for it, unlike Reiner's parents or Tom's wife and child. The gate guards are Gabi's friends, not monsters like Gross who treat Eldians as dogfood. And Zeke's opinion is actually valued in council meetings, to Colt's shock and satisfaction.

Looking at it that way, it's easier to understand Tybur's remark about how now the family isn't just sitting on its rear end. (And his guilt complex) If that much could improve in a decade, then it's pretty clear a lot of Eldian suffering is on his family's head for refusing to step in.

It also helps frame Gabi's delusional hopes. If things were so bad in the old days, and are still bad in other countries, then obviously it was the actions of the Warriors like her beloved war hero cousin that lifted Eldians, and if they can just prove they're good people more, then some day they'll have made up for their sins and things will be made right. (Meanwhile, the people who pay attention know how wrong she is. But there's enough to explain why she has those hopes in the first place.)

There's a lot of nice little touches in this manga, basically.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

Yeah, I figured the second one, and something to do with Annie's father. And while it's not totally necessary, we might also get a hint at who her real daddy might've been, but it might be a bit late for that. I remember some folks suspecting Kruger on that front.

It gets sketchier, since we saw the beginnings of a revolt against the guards, but none of the action. Assuming they managed to get to the sea or airships, they could run into Annie and the others on their way back to Paradis, providing the long awaited reunion between Annie and her father.

I won't claim to actually predict too much beyond that, but it seems pretty important to note that no-one on the ship is from the island. If I was going to try to gamble, though... this seems a good place to put a small scale version of the wider conflict, where Gabi, Falco, and Annie have to try to stop Marley's remaining forces from trying to wipe out Paradis in retribution.

(It'd also offer an obvious role for Historia as the protector of the unwanted as they wash up on Paradis's shore.)


Speaking on a broader scale, it's interesting the conflict the manga's currently running on a meta level, with the manga all but explicitly presenting two (apparently) contradictory thesis.

1) Eren can't be stopped, and will accomplish everything he set out to do.

2) Armin's going to be the one who saves the world.

I think, whatever else happens in the final requiem, we're going to have to see both of those fulfilled.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Turin Turambar posted:

Yeah, I also disliked it. Until now, in all these past volumes, dead people were dead and that's it. No even a glint of reason to think afterlife is objectively a thing in this world.


...Is this where I bring up the two thousand year old goddess who Eren's hanging out with right now?


Even taking the scenes of the survey corps's ghosts appearing to force the ones who came after them into action appearing as pure symbolism (fair enough on that), we know that Ymir Fritz's torture continued on long after her body was devoured. We also know that all her children to the hundredth generation have walked the same paths.

Considering everyone we see in the picture (including Sasha) is Eldian, (and no-one in the group we see is a Titan Shifter, whose wills seem to shadow the ones who take up their legacy) the metaphysics of the setting seem to line up with no issue.

chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Sep 8, 2020

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





iamsosmrt posted:

I'm fine with the idea overall, but I'd preferred it to be saved for the final chapter. The stakes have been raised extremely high up until this point, and knowing that Hange literally went to her peaceful afterlife undercuts some of that. It's like how death is so meaningful in DBZ from gross abuse of the wishes.

Yeah, that's fair.

This is probably the best point to show it for Hange's story, but it makes future deaths among our protagonists sting a bit less, which can hurt the rest of the story overall.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





GodFish posted:

Is there some reason to assume this is literally heaven as opposed to like, her dying thoughts/hallucination? That's what I took it as, not sure if I missed something or not.

A couple.


First, we see Hange die of stomping before we see her with Erwin, but she still sees the plane fly away.

Second, we see Shadis there, who Hange didn't see die, or even hear about dying. The only person who saw him go was Magath, who wasn't exactly in any shape to tell people about it after.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Conspiratiorist posted:

I'm sure Isayama has the balls to have Eren "win".

That's one of the few guarantees we have. Grisha outright said that Eren will win, and most of the bits of ending foreshadowing we have (the last panel, Requiem) suggest that Eren will accomplish his main objectives.

The question isn't if he'll win, really. It's what Eren winning will look like.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Eej posted:

Outside of the part where it involves using mental coersion over an immortal slave woman to neuter her people, maybe we

It does however mean you are putting the punishment on the oppressed people and sacrificing them for the oppressor's sake

Zeke's plan is interesting in that it's the plan that kills the fewest people of the options known so far on the one end, so people can think of it as "the best" plan morally. But at the same time, it's the plan that's the least in keeping with the overall morals of the series.

Eren's catchphrase is "Because I was born into this world", something passed down from his mother (one of the few real innocents in the manga), and it's one of the guiding principles of the whole story. Even if life is cruel, painful, and short, the mere fact of being born is an inherent good. Zeke's antinatalist philosophy is thus opposed to the heart of the story.

(Eren also views his plan as a necessary evil, while Zeke views his plan as a good.)

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





ImpAtom posted:

I don't think that's entirely right.

Both Eren *and* Zeke have become what the series calls bad.

Eren has taken on the Colossal Titan's role from the start of the series, just multiplied. (It's not really a coincidence that The Rumbling is nothing but Colossal Titans.) But we know now that the Colossal Titan was the embodiment of a trapped and helpless person who felt they had no other choice because of the way the world was. Eren has been struggling against the idea of being caged (be it by the walls or by the precognitive fate) but there's a stark contrast to what we see of Eren versus what we're presented as imagery. His Titan form now is effectively a giant cage in multiple senses of the word. He hasn't become free, he's effective accepted being caged himself because he thinks there is no way for him to escape. Even as he frees Ymir he cages himself.

Eren is doing what he feels is right and what he feels is necessary but at the end of the day he is doing so by caging himself and by repeating the tragedy that so formed his mindset on a worldwide scale.

Zeke is wrong because he wants to deny freedom to people. Eren is wrong because he wants to deny freedom to himself. This is also why the final conflict is shaping up to be the people closest to Eren in the world saying he isn't acting like himself because if there is one thing Eren has not done it is deny his own desires for freedom. Mikasa and Armin are most likely going to resolve the conflict not by killing Eren but by *freeing* Eren. Because right now the person most trapped in the world, even if he himself doesn't feel it, is Eren.

I think you're mostly right here (and I definitely agree that freeing Eren is a likely endgame), but I'm not sure I'm on the same page for all of it.

Eren's actions are wrong, yes, but I still think they're wrong in a different way than Zeke's, as far as the narrative is concerned. Eren's still trying to pursue freedom even when he's trapped. It's the point of his talk with Falco about the other side of Hell, and an undercurrent in his scenes with Zeke and Grisha. There's something he's chasing, even as he hates the path to it, in the same way he accepted imprisonment (repeatedly) during his time in the Survey Corps, because that restraint was on the path to the freedom he was chasing.

It shows up in a lot of his actions leading up to and within the rumbling, too. Eren says the opposite of freedom is ignorance, and he makes a point of letting the world know why he's murdering so many innocents. He tries to force a different path, even as he fails. And he gives the choice to Ymir, rather than try to force her. Eren still believes in freedom, even as it's stolen from him, while Zeke opposes it.

As Eren's hit endgame, Mikasa and Armin have shifted from "Eren's not acting like himself!" to "...Okay. This horrible thing is classic Eren." Armin was sure that Eren wouldn't agree to Zeke's plan, but when the rumbling kicked off, he, Jean, and (eventually) Mikasa all reached a point where they could see how Eren would do this.

The bit I disagree with most, though, is Eren thinking this is right. He's explicitly said it isn't. It's just the only course he can see where he saves what matters most to him. (Floch wasn't wrong when he said Eren was Eldia's own devil.)

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

Reminder that Zeke (and even little nice boy Armin) supported using the Rumbling to destroy Marley's military invasion fleet... just not the entire world. For Zeke, it was just to say "don't gently caress with us", so then everybody could die off in a generation before they inevitably came back and killed them.

It wasn't just Marley's fleet. It was everybody's fleet.

One thing that came up this chapter that I found interesting was Annie saying that Eldians were doomed even if they stopped Eren, because Marley was gone.

For Eren and the other residents of Paradis, Marley was The Enemy, but for Eldians outside of the island, Marley was the closest thing they had to a friend. It really emphasizes the root of Eren's desperation, even as it shows the "obvious" fix just making things worse.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Raxivace posted:

I'm not really sure Eren quite "turned into" a monster. Even as a kid he did that serial killer poo poo to those goons that were trying to kidnap Mikasa.

That poo poo was practically the backstory to an 80's slasher villain.

And right after, he gives Mikasa his scarf and welcomes her to his... no, their home.

That's the really fun thing about Eren there. In no time flat, he goes from "I killed animals that happened to look like human beings." to offering his home to a girl he just met because she was in need.

It's actually a pretty fun parallel to current events. Eren is the first person to show kindness to Ymir, not just for his objective, but because he sees someone suffering, someone who believes that she should never have been born, and he needs her to know that's not true. She has the right to freedom, the same as anyone.

And then, like with Mikasa, it leads to horrific violence, only this time it's being inflicted on a lot more people, most of whom don't have it coming.

The big difference this time is that now, Eren can't ignore the weight of his sins. He's killing people, no different from him, his mother, or his unborn child. That's the core of his talk with Reiner and Falco. He used to have a black-and-white worldview, where he was good, and his enemies were bad. But now... now he's grateful to see Reiner, because he knows they're both the same. Half-assing pieces of poo poo.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





No Wave posted:

If Ymir weren't an Eldian he would be happily crushing her under his feet right now. I wouldn't praise his kindness.

Yes, "happily".

That's why, after saving Ramzi, he broke down sobbing, begging for forgiveness for what he knew he was going to do.

The whole Ramzi scene reinforced that Mikasa's not all wrong in the Eren she sees. Eren may be a violent loudmouth with what could charitably be described as "homicidal tendencies" and "A freedom boner visible from orbit", but his kindness is real.

As for Eren dying... I'd bet money against. The final panel and the Requiem both suggest he's seeing how this ends with his own eyes.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Shinjobi posted:

Where's Eren?

Where's Eren??

wHeRe'S eReN????



Basement.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Fister Roboto posted:

I constantly get Armin, Yelena, and Floch mixed up. Sometimes Annie too.

That might be why anime Floch is a redhead instead of blonde. Makes distinguishing everyone easier.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

The Shiganshina arc is loving incredible, and like every other arc, was improved by the pacing and presentation of the anime.
The response to that five-week long battle was actually super positive among anime viewers, as was Midnight Sun, which was more controversial in the manga. And I see a lot of folks saying that Attack on Titan is pretty much the only series where the Mystery Box approach actually paid off. And they're gonna see it double pay off when the anime reaches the PATHS dimension.

The real low point was the manga version of Uprising, which was drawn out and poorly paced. Lots of readers quit there because it just seemed to be meandering from one plot thread to another. Again, the anime improved this, but nerds got mad because stuff was cut.

I mean, reading Uprising all at once, it flows pretty well. There's also a lot of good character stuff that got cut, some of which (like the Eren and Historia interactions) is pretty clearly going to be important come endgame. Uprising is the arc where Eren finally comes together as a character, it builds up the supporting cast and gives them plenty to do, it shows the world, all kinds of good stuff. The anime loses some of that, even if the cuts were probably the right call with the resources available.

I'd say the problem with the manga arc is less that it's bad, and more that it...

Well, a manga called "Attack on Titan" went for more than a year without anyone attacking any Titans. Watching the anime or reading the manga in trades, you know things are getting back to the main action soon enough, so you can enjoy the ride until then. But reading it monthly, there was no way of knowing how anything would pay out or when they'd actually get to the loving basement. A chapter on how the newspaper business works inside the walls, or a full arc for the corrupt merchant Mikasa threatened back in the battle for Trost? Great as part of a wider experience. Incredibly frustrating when it's all you get for the month.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Asuron posted:

I think weíll be lucky if we donít get anything post timeskip cut. There is just so much to cover and itís all important, trying to cram it all into two cours seems impossible, even with some added episodes

Yeah, the anime got in enough Historia and Eren moments for the fourth season to make sense, especially with Isayama sitting in on recording to make sure all the lines played out like he needed them to. It'd be nice to have more, but... well, with the estimated lengths, everything should just fit without being too crammed. Trying to fit in scenes from earlier in the manga would make a difficult job even harder with limited benefit.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Ethiser posted:

For real, outside of Mikasa and Levi are any of them even good enough to do anything? Turning into a titan seems like a hindrance, it just makes it easier for the giant titans to grab them. If they all just jump onto Eren from air he can just use the warhammer titan powers to get them pretty easily.

Armin could clear some space with a colossal explosion, at least.

Overall, this really feels like Eren's still leaning hard into a false binary. His friends can kill him, or they can let the world be destroyed. Both options suck, but he can't stop. He wants to destroy the world for Paradis. Armin wants to save the world. It's the fated showdown between the two leads, for all the marbles, and...

Wait.

Wait.

Time out.

Weren't there three leads?

Pretty weird with only two options, right?

Eren saves Ymir.

Armin saves the world.

Which leaves Mikasa in position to finally do what she's been trying to do since she was nine. Save her little brother, just like he saved her.

You don't usually present an A-or-B like this one unless it's a feint so the audience doesn't see all the obvious groundwork for C.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Beefstew posted:

For Grisha, I interpreted it as him going "gently caress it, yeah, kill em all" after Eren told him that Carla had died. Babbo Eren accidentally caught him in a moment of weakness. As for the future memories, reminder that the while the Attack Titan can see them, The Founding Titan can change them. It's possible that something down the line changes the memory of the actual event to close some causality loop or something.

Except Grisha also followed up by passing the powers on to Eren. That's after telling Zeke to stop Eren.

And Eren seemed to think there was something important there from how he was going to show Zeke.

It feels like there's still at least one thing we haven't been shown. And it's probably important.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





One thing I've noticed about most of the accusations of fascism for Attack on Titan is how devoted they are to Morton's Fork. No matter what happens in the manga, it's more evidence for the theory.

Attack on Titan's final arc has the leader of the most fascist group in the manga get beaten up by a middle aged woman while looking like an idiot, has the heroes kill a bunch of them, and even makes a point of the manga's protagonist not agreeing with their racist doctrines or caring about their plans for empire even when he's gone completely round the bend to the point where he's murdering billions of people.

Attack on Titan's not been subtle with some of its themes in the endgame. Instead it's been having people turn to the camera and say things like "Racism is bad", "The cycle of hatred hurts everyone", "Fascism sucks", "Governments refusing to be honest empowers totalitarian rebellion"...

But no. The internet hot take factory has warmed up, and the message must be repeated no matter how much evidence there is against it. (Similarly, 4chan's actual Nazi types stubbornly insist on idolizing Floch, a guy who spends most of his panel time being a tool and a failure before he died without managing to achieve anything.)

I suppose it's true. The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





They also added a cameo from Jean, it looks like.

The last shot of the episode is a man with his eyes concealed buying a newspaper. Not a lock, but the haircut and the facial hair match up pretty well.

Interesting to see him before we even get Eren.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Not Keyser Soze posted:

I think more than anything else the moment from the first half? of this season I'm looking forward to the most is the scene where the kind family daughter tries to stab Gabbi because it's one of the few moments where the cyclical and irrational nature of hate is blatantly called out. One of the problems of SnK is that it has a realistic portrayal of the insidious and creeping nature of fascism and racism, which results in the aforementioned over-serious think pieces about "the anime you like is bad, actually". It's a rare moment of moral clarity for a character like Gabbi who had been so (realistically) entrenched in her brainwashing that even among regular Eldian folks she was still filter filtering everything trough the idea that her own people were evil.

One of the things about Gabi is that she spends most of her time with Falco, and Falco is maybe the most moral character in the manga despite growing up in the same culture as Gabi. It probably makes her look worse to some people since Falco is seeing through the propaganda, making it easier to think "Man, Gabi sucks" instead of "Man, Falco is a saint."

Also, useful to have the whole "Marley is a military dictatorship" confirmed in black and white like that. I hadn't been quite sure if they had a civilian government we didn't see earlier, so that settles the question nicely.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Turin Turambar posted:

Yep, both the models and the color integration and shading were good enough to make almost seamless, unless you know, you start looking at paused stills.

You could see a little bit of stylistic difference, and the framerate was different. Well integrated, but visible if you knew what you were looking for.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





GimmickMan posted:

We had characters saying that fascism was bad earlier and the OPs were fine. If anything the dissonance made the story even better.

If it worked then, it would still work now, but that ship's sailed already so

I think the issue now is less about fascism than about the more basic question of the conflict. Previously, we switched to Red Swan for the uprising arc, after all.

The Linked Horizon OPs are for humans vs titans, where the us and them lines are clear, and where battle is assumed to be heroic, for the salvation of mankind. The third season's first OP, by contrast, was for an arc where it was human against human, with moral lines being murkier.

In the final season, the war is human against human, with Titans acting as weapons, soldiers, and victims rather than as an inscrutable other. Going for a straightforward fight song isn't a good fit, even for irony value.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Viridiant posted:

Someday in the far future of this world there are absolutely goin to be mechs based on the old stories of Titans.

And then one of the pilots will tell a young man that his name sounds like a girl's, and the cycle of vengeance will continue.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





wdarkk posted:

I canít wait to see their explanation for titans working in space.

Reiner tries to kill himself by suffocation.

To prevent this, Ymir ensures that all titans don't need to breathe.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012






I mean, they are trying to save humanity still.

It's just they're mostly trying to save it from Eren.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





hatty posted:

Pieck is the best and most competent Marley warrior

She's the only reason that Marley salvaged anything from their Paradis mission. You could even say she's what pieck performance looks like.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





No Wave posted:

I didn't even realize there were characters I still liked until you brought up Pieck. She's not gonna make it, is she.

Her odds don't look great, no. Unlike most of the Alliance, she's not even Eren's friend, so he's not going to put in special effort to keep her safe in his rampage, and she just got caught when delivering explosives.

Not a guarantee she'll die, but things are bleak at the moment.

(But you still like Falco, right? I mean, Falco's a good kid.)

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Flesnolk posted:

There was that one guy who was all "if we somehow survive this let's renounce racism forever"

Also, the rest of humanity's only hope is a bunch of Eldians. It's not enough to erase the history, but there's a chance at a fresh start. (Especially since Reiner is arguably the highest ranking living member of the Marleyian government. Funny what the apocalypse can do to the chain of command.)

If the Titan powers go away too, then it gives less reason for the old grudges to crop up again. It's not a perfect future forever, but if anything can get people to stop shooting at each other for a few years, it's this.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





bees x1000 posted:

Y'really think a half-Rumble and becoming (even more) powerless would make the rest of the world chill out? As opposed to validating every fear they've ever had? That they'd even entertain the thought that the Eldians are suddenly not walking time bombs? It's a real mess of a situation.

They're not powerless, though.

Paradis took some damage from the Yeagerist revolt, but even after that they have the strongest remaining military by default due to their intact infrastructure.

I'm not saying this will be a smooth process, but if Eren is defeated, a lot of people will be witnesses to the Paradis military saving (what's left of) the world, with Reiner Braun, unquestioned Marleyian patriot right there in the middle of it. Combine that with Tybur's last speech marking Eren specifically as the Devil, with the much feared king being not-so-bad, and Paradis is going to have a chance at being less hated, especially if they're bringing humanitarian aid from a position of strength.

It's not like it erases 2,000 years of ethnic strife, but I think moving things down to "no active genocide attempts" is an attainable goal.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





mightygerm posted:

There was some speculation going around that eren didnít memory wipe or alter dna because he did not want to rob his friends of their freedom. If they chose to oppose him of their own free will, he would let them.

I mean, "speculation" is an odd way to put it when Eren outright said that was why he was letting them fight him in the chapter before last.

Dude loves freedom even more than he hated Titans.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Asuron posted:

Hard disagree. I think those early training moments shape our understanding of why Reiner wants to be seen as a hero so much, because of how much he fails and how much is riding on him succeeding. His failing to be the best in any of the tests and his growing fear at being seen as worthless are really important to understanding why he thinks being seen as a hero is so important, which leads to him trying to justify the slaughter he eventually goes on to cause. It always explains his zealotry to the mission because it was the only thing he saw as worthwhile about himself.

Its kinda there in this episode but really glossed over at the start of the episode in a throw away line by Porco and it's done by the guy who is already hostile to him. It just really hurts the story and especially his character I think by not having it be shown.

We get some quick shots later, and we see Reiner flash back to his own training when Eren's calling himself worthless.

Even if you only see the anime, you get the idea. It's on the rushed side, but considering how much this season is trying to cover, it does the job.

chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Dec 21, 2020

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chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012





Eustace posted:

I just realized that Eren infiltrating Marley, killing their ruling family and stealing their titan mirrors Grisha dong the same on Paradis with the Reiss family

Slaughtering national governments, holding the Attack Titan, plotting coups, having sex with exiled members of the Fritz family...

Like father like son, eh?

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