The Toyobaru thread: We got the car we asked for, and WE'RE ALL ANGRY ABOUT IT

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 3, 2011 15:34

dreesemonkey posted:

M
Around $30k on the high end is crazy considering you're getting into WRX money

WRX's start at $25k.

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bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 3, 2011 21:15

Rabble posted:

Miata starts around $22k. Considering that it's the first car on the comparison chart it would make sense that the FRS would be comparable price wise.

One thing though. I know the comparison to the Miata makes sense from a small RWD car perspective, but I don't know if I would consider it a full direct competitor simply from the fact that this is a coupe and not a convertible.

Yes, there is a large amount of overlap. However, I would say that this serves as more of successor to all the various FWD coupes that were so prevalent until recently like the Celica, RSX, Civic Si, or Tiburon; only in this case it happens to be RWD.

In that respect, I don't think it even has a direct competitor on the market right now. The Audi TT was mentioned before and I think it's an apt comparison, the same could be said for the Z4.

I wonder where the people who think the Miata would be the obvious choice over this car live because in less temperate climates a convertible holds limited appeal. One of the things I love about a car like this is I could drive it in the dead of winter as long as the roads were clear of snow (and even in the snow if the right tires were on the car.) I wouldn't have to worry about 8 inches of snow and ice sitting on a soft top overnight and developing leaks.

Impossible to use a convertible in such conditions? Not at all. Would I want to daily drive a full winter in a convertible? Hell no.

What can I say, I don't like having to put my toys away for a season.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 3, 2011 21:53

Geoj posted:

I think the Miata is a good comparison from the standpoint that they're both lightweight RWD "sports cars" in the sub-$30k price range. Unless Mazda is being grossly unrealistic with what they can do with the Skyactiv platform, given a choice between the two I'd take the Miata if its really under 2000 pounds dry.

A 2000lb dry miata, if they can pull it off, is an amazing thing. However, it still doesn't address any of the convertible shortcomings I mentioned. I really don't live in an area where I can enjoy a convertible. If they made such a thing into a coupe, it would be incredible.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 3, 2011 22:12

powderific posted:

I daily drove a mazdaspeed mx-5 for a few Nebraska winters. Though our winters aren't the worst out there, our snow removal leaves a lot to be desired. I regularly had it out around town in 8" plus snowfall blizzards and drove it up to South Dakota a few times in similar conditions. I guess I did clean off the whole car every time I got in. Somewhere like buffalo that gets a million inches of snow a year might not be the best for a convertible, but I enjoyed the poo poo out of mine despite the wintry months and know others who do the same.

I knew someone was going to talk about how they daily drove in the winter. That's fine. The point is I WOULDN'T want to and a lot of people feel the same way.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 4, 2011 02:33

TrueChaos posted:

You know, you can get them with hard tops...

But that was kind of the point. People were complaining about the price compared to the Miata. It takes a 30k Miata to overcome that shortcoming, so the price advantage is lost at that point.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 8, 2011 23:59

Here is the exact quote on the transmission.

quote:

The engine drives the rear wheels through a choice of two Aisin six-speed transmissions, one a manual, the other a conventional planetary automatic with manual actuation via steering wheel-mounted paddles. The transmission is the same one used in the Lexus IS 350, among others.

Due to the use of the singular on transmission, we can only infer that the auto is coming from the Lexus. However, it does say that both transmissions are Aisin so even the MT doesn't seem to be Subaru (just not necessarily from the Lexus).

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 9, 2011 00:40

IOwnCalculus posted:

Are Subaru's manuals an actual in-house design or are they really Aisins too?

I tried looking that up because that was my thought too, but I can't find any link online to Aisin and Subaru transmissions.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 29, 2011 06:59

I can't help but feeling that a BRZ in WRB would be the perfect replacement for my '02 WRX. Sure it would turn my '11 into the winter mule, but they seem like such perfect complementary cars.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 29, 2011 18:21

Even today, I don't think anyone would call the 2.0L WRX "slow".

227hp, 3085lbs.

That gives you 13.59lbs/hp which is worse than the BRZ.

Yeah, the BRZ is down in torque (150 vs 217), but how quick it feels is also going to be down to the gearing.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 29, 2011 23:46

Hell, they could probably just bump the displacement up to 2.5L. With some tuning/better understanding of the engine design, I wouldn't be suprised if they could get around 240hp out of it.

Not a 300hp monster, but even those extra 40 ponies would make it pretty drat quick in that light of a chassis.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 30, 2011 04:47

Ingraman posted:

Some pretty good videos of the BRZ being driven around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nb17h7j5JE&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OetOTYfdJJY&feature=player_embedded

So, $26k for a Premium eh? So a bit less than what I paid for my Premium '11 WRX? And I can get it in WRB?

I may make a very stupid financial decision next year.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 30, 2011 18:45

I really don't know why it's so hard to think someone can afford a new car in the 19-23 yr old range. I bought my 2002 WRX when I was 22, was living in my own apartment, was paying all my own bills.

A $400 /month car payment isn't the most intelligent thing someone can do coming right out of school, but it's not impossible.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 30, 2011 22:06

Octopus Magic posted:

My point being was that you pretty much have to pull at least >50k before you can start thinking about affording a new car+insurance, never mind student loans, housing, food, clothing, actually having a life, which is out of reach for the vast majority of college grads unless you're part of a smaller percentage.

Eh, I was only making $35k out of school and was affording it just fine. Cost of living factors into it a lot. My rent was barely more than my car payment.

To steer the conversation back on track, is there any info about what the wheel specs are on this beyond tire size? I'm wondering if wheels will be swapable between this and my WRX.

bull3964 · # ¿ Nov 30, 2011 23:24

Billy Zane posted:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2056

Woohoo. 5x100 with +48 offset it looks like. That means the 2nd set of 17s that I bought this year with all-seasons wouldn't go to waste if I picked one of these up.

This year it's the '11 with the 17" all-seasons and my 2002 with 16" winters. Next year (or the year after) it could very well be the '11 with 16" winters and a BRZ with 17" all-seasons.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 00:23

Maybe it's just different because of the piping for the intercooler?

I was doing a double take counting the accessories on the BRZ engine until I realized the bottom one was an external water pump. That belt routing looks complicated though. I find it funny that it has the same amount of belt driven accessories, one FEWER belt than my EJ, yet three times the number of idler pulleys.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 00:33

I wonder why they wouldn't go all electric power steering from here on out.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 01:56

Also, that trubo engine pretty clearly has spots to attach coilpacks for spark plugs which the diesel wouldn't need.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 17:21

5x100 and 2 POT calipers basically just means it's using the Impreza hubs and brakes. As mentioned, for a 2600lb car, I don't think that will be much of an issue.

We wanted them to keep cost down right? They aren't going to do that if they start bolting on pieces from a $32k car (STI).

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 17:51

Well, it seems like everything mechanical on this car has been Subaru at this point.

Subaru -> Chassis, mechanicals
Toyota -> Sheetmetal, engine tuning, (possibly) interior

So, it's not surprising that they are using Impreza hubs on this car. I honestly don't see the issue with it, I don't really hear standard WRX people having problems finding wheels.

It honestly delights me as I would be able to continue my trend of having sets of wheels/tires that I can cross between all my cars.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 19:50

DEUCE SLUICE posted:

uh

This is really the only way they could gently caress this car up at this point, and they may just end up doing it. Goddamnit.

Who's saying that? Just last page we had it stated that the BRZ Premium will start at Base WRX levels.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 1, 2011 20:00

DEUCE SLUICE posted:

BRZ at STI price is from here, which was apparently from the Tokyo press conference: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1070072_2013-subaru-brz-pricing-info-new-details-live-photos

Scion price is from here: http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s/2013/2013-scion-fr-s-to-hit-us-showrooms-in-spring-with-under-30000-price-tag.html

I'm just nervous, that's all

I think someone just sucks at translating there. It would probably be easy to confuse WRX price with WRX STI price. Also, as mentioned, they say the 2.0L is turbocharged and we know that's not the case.

It would literally make zero sense for it to be as much as the STI. It's not made out of exotic materials, the engine is less complicated, it physically has far fewer components than even a normal WRX.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 2, 2011 18:56

My WRX is 10 years old, has seen a ton of autocrosses, and has 114k miles on it.

I've had to replace one wheel bearing.

So, I'm really not too worried about it. Besides I though the newer 5x100 hubs with the bolt in wheel bearings were better than the older ones anyways?

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 3, 2011 07:45

Yeah, $24k for the BRZ sounds pretty drat affordable to me. This is especially true when it's supposed to be equipped with navigation, torsen rear diff, and HIDs as base for the premium.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 3, 2011 08:06

DEUCE SLUICE posted:

Once again,

The discs are 11.6 front 11.5 rear, not 16 and 15.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 3, 2011 19:03

hayden. posted:

In my experience power seats have a lot more adjustability. Manual seats will go forward and back, recline, and sometimes have manual lumbar adjustment. Power seats usually go up and down vertically and can also change the angle of the seat itself.

Both my '02 and '11 WRXs have up/down manual adjustment for the driver's seat.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 8, 2011 17:47

Ouhei posted:

Won't the Scion have traditional A/C controls (off, 1, 2, 3, 4)? So all the people that are morally opposed to the more complicated system could just get it over the Subaru?

The fun part is, it will probably be literally the same system with just different switchgear that doesn't show the auto settings and the subtraction of one or two sensors from the cabin.

Added "luxury crap" is added because it's basically a no cost add anymore.

For example, cruise control. If throttle is already drive by wire, adding a few subroutines in to maintain a certain speed and a few switches to control it is trivial and costs virtually nothing more than the raw material of the switchgear plastic.

Same with the climate control. Fan speed and blend doors will already be computer controlled because it's a cheaper and more reliable system than vacuum actuators and physical linkages between the controls and the rest of the system. So, you just add in a few temp sensors and add the control logic to the computer to maintain temp and you have auto climate control. 98% of the work is already done for manual control, you just have to add the extra inputs and logic.

The same with navigation. The most expensive component for that will be the LCD touch screen and and the licensing of maps. I wouldn't be surprised if GPS is integrated on the SoC of a lot of factory radios nowadays, whether or not they actually have a navigation system. So, it's cheaper for them to use a single component when they build the cars and just give navigation to all.

People are operating under a faulty premise that not including these items would lower the price of the car when you are probably looking at MAYBE a $200 cost to include the stuff.

In all reality, they probably have to add stuff like this in to justify the higher price that the engineering behind the car dictates. If Subaru determines that they need to charge around ~$25k to make a profit on this project, increasing the cost by a few hundred dollars and adding features that people expect at that price point makes the car more marketable.

bull3964 fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 8, 2011

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 8, 2011 23:11

mattmofob posted:

Here is what I want to see:

I hope that you are willing to pay a few grand more for that then since they will have to build your car on a specialized line.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 8, 2011 23:28

The Subaru automatic climate control is easy.

It's the same 3 dials as the manual control. On both the fan speed dial and vent selection dial there is an "Auto" selection available. The temperature dial has numbered degrees on it instead the blue to red shading.

If you want to set things manually, it's used exactly the same as the normal manual control. If you want to do things automatically, you just set the first two dials to auto and set your temp.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 8, 2011 23:36

law abiding rapist posted:

So to get just vent air you can just turn the fan off and set the temp to the coldest like normal?

Yup, that's exactly it.

There's one position on the fan dial that's before Auto for completely off. You do that and then sent the temp to coldest and you have flow through from the vents.

This link shows what it's like on the Forester. The styling is a bit different on the impreza, but same functionality.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/attachments/f77/9022d1196261437-plasti-dip-hvac-controls-img_5101a.jpg

bull3964 fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Dec 8, 2011

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 9, 2011 16:47

It's nice that they confirmed a turbo FA20 as the next WRX engine, but it's all academic right now since that car is over a year away at this point. The new WRX won't be out until sometime mid 2013 so if we are going to wait on it to show up in the BRZ after the WRX, we are going to be waiting for a long time.

bull3964 · # ¿ Dec 12, 2011 17:49

kimbo305 posted:

he seems on the upper end of the range for fitting in the car.

He better not be or I will be murdering someone with my rage.

Also, it would be a bad move regardless since the average US male height in the US is 5' 10"

bull3964 fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Dec 12, 2011

bull3964 · # ¿ Jan 3, 2012 20:26

Cakefool posted:

They have different headlight units?

I would suspect that the Scion won't have HIDs, at least not in the lower configurations, that could cause them to use different headlight housings.

bull3964 · # ¿ Jan 12, 2012 23:14

leica posted:

That's the problem though, most of the general public IS doing it wrong. If Joe Blow can get a WRX or Mazdaspeed3 with MO POWA and TURBOS for the same price, the Toyobaru is going to lose every time.

If that were the case though, Mazda should have discontinued the Miata years ago.

Pricing the base model BRZ (which is the Premium trim) at base WRX pricing makes perfect sense to me. Subaru is going to get most of their buyers for this car as repeat buyers of the brand. I own two WRXs currently and would really like to keep my 2011 as my utility daily driver and sell my '02 and get a BRZ as a replacement. Either or could be the daily driver with the WRX being the primary in the winter.

I look at the Premium trim model for the BRZ and see that it's actually better equipped in quite a few ways than my premium WRX that I paid several grand more for. To me, it seems like quite good value if it's priced at WRX levels.

Subaru doesn't need this to be a super high volume seller, they are going to have dividends repaid for development costs when the next WRX and STI launches on a modified version of this platform.

bull3964 · # ¿ Jan 31, 2012 17:52

DEUCE SLUICE posted:

This thing should be faster than my WRX (not 0-60, but in every other fashion) and a lot easier to drive on a daily basis being lighter and without turbo lag, so I think it'd be fast enough for me for sure. As soon as my WRX is paid off we're getting one (unless my wife is down with just trading the WRX in on it, but I think we need the hauling capacity for now. After we sell the house we may not.)

Hell, it may actually be faster (or at least as fast) as my '02 WRX and handle much better.

I am seriously considering getting rid of my '02 WRX, keeping the '11 and getting a BRZ to complement it. My greatest obstacle right now is I don't have a way to keep two cars under cover and I don't want to put the '11 outside with no protection since it's so new.

bull3964 · # ¿ Feb 8, 2012 16:31

Idiot race posted:

Im so mad that 16s fit under it because I already have two sets of perfect wheels apart from the fact that the stud pattern is 5x100

And I'm very happy as I have 2 sets of wheels that are 16 and have the pattern 5x100.

bull3964 · # ¿ Feb 8, 2012 17:16

Why would you really WANT to go more than 225 for street use on this car? My WRX that weighs 400lbs more has plenty of street grip to be fun at 215 wide.

It's not like you're dealing with keeping a 3500lb chassis glued to the road or trying to put down 500hp.

It would just seem like a crime to deaden the apparently lively steering they put in this thing by trying to cram 245s or something sill like that on it.

bull3964 · # ¿ Feb 8, 2012 23:31

Muffinpox posted:

Autox or track day tires, 205 isn't much tire for something close to 3000lbs there although it probably is hilarious.

If you're going for a specialized setup for autocross/track then chances are you're going to go to 17" with a wider wheel anyways which makes things moot and you do whatever gives you most grip/less weight, to hell with what the speedo reads. Regardless, you should be able to cram 225/50/16s on the stock wheels assuming they don't rub, I did it all the time with my 2002 WRX. I would think going to 235 or 245 would hit diminishing returns pretty quickly with the weight tradeoff.

Anyways that's why I specified street use. 205/55/16 is a pretty popular tire size and there's a wide range of stuff available at decent prices. I think it's a fantastic move to keep the car affordable not just to buy, but maintain in the long run.

bull3964 · # ¿ Feb 19, 2012 00:27

I was at the Pittsburgh auto show and I was surprised that they actually had a BRZ there.

drat it looks perfect in person.

bull3964 · # ¿ Feb 23, 2012 06:02

I'm not sure those L1 and L2 open levels are going to apply to the US on the BRZ. I remember awhile back a Subaru rep stated that even the base model (Premium) in the US will have HIDs and Navigation.

I'm betting 16" wheels won't be on any trim level in the US either for the BRZ (but probably likely for the Scion.)

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bull3964 · # ¿ Feb 28, 2012 17:06

Voltage posted:

I don't get why everyone thinks this is going to be in any way slow, it has 200HP! Does anyone think that is in any way 'slow' or 'not enough for sticky tires'? I for one forsee this being a beast with some suspension/wheel/tire upgrades for autoX and the track. The first thing I am doing is burning up the prius tires for fun and then getting a set of r-comps.

As I put it before, it has a slightly better power to weight ratio (assuming 2600 lbs) as the WRX before they upped the HP to 265 and it will have less drivetrain loss.

It will probably feel quicker than my 2002 in a straight line due to the torque curve being flatter and less rotational mass of 2 fewer driveshafts and related differentials.