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Chortles
Dec 29, 2008


That's what the impassable shallows at the bend of the Yellow River near Tong Pass are for.

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Estraysian
Dec 29, 2008


disjoe posted:

Is it just me or have the generic Yellow Turbans been on steroids since the DLC, especially around the Luoyang/Changan area? I think it has something to do with the gates but Iím not sure.

Generic Turbans will rebel from all the gates Big Dong gets since he has a public order penalty.

Chocobo
Oct 15, 2012


Here comes a new challenger!


Oven Wrangler

I'm giving illnoob 8 bucks to get that damned early access. Can't play this game without MTU and I'm out of patience.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer


Where's the logic in this? Why would Yuan Shao pay me over 700 gold per turn for suggesting he go to war with Liu Chong? I mean, I'm not complaining, but I don't see why that makes sense.

The Chad Jihad
Feb 24, 2007



He wants to go to war with them anyways, and you using a proxy war uses up your own special resource, so the cash is compensating for that, although it does feel gamey

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Dramicus posted:

It's actually a pretty elegant solution to having defensive and offensive armies. I like that you can mostly focus on your offensive armies and just use administrators to garrison border cities for free.

I'd really like it if you could move (maybe on a one-turn redeployment/cooldown) the settlement within the commandery that the garrisoning administrator is currently in as a representative of them being able to move their defensive forces around the commandery as part of patrols or something.

Also to be able to add to retinues when they're not deployed.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

The Chad Jihad posted:

He wants to go to war with them anyways, and you using a proxy war uses up your own special resource, so the cash is compensating for that, although it does feel gamey

It sort of makes sense, it just seems strange that I can effectively force people into war in addition to taking a significant chunk out of their income. I'm sure it doesn't make waging the war any easier, I also got Kong Rong to declare war on Gonsunsan and he paid me just shy of 1000 gold per turn for the privilege.

lurksion
Mar 21, 2013


Basically if he didn't want to go to war he'd have negative modifiers that the +10 makes up for

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Anyone here use the Let the AI control mod for 3k? Seems like it might be useful for cutting down the micro in larger battles.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

lurksion posted:

Basically if he didn't want to go to war he'd have negative modifiers that the +10 makes up for

I understand he wanted to go to war, I'm just saying its dumb that instead of just declaring war, he pays me to tell him to declare war.

Flipswitch posted:

Anyone here use the Let the AI control mod for 3k? Seems like it might be useful for cutting down the micro in larger battles.

One of the advanced arts of Total War is designing your army in a way that minimizes micro. If you can't easily split your army into 3 control groups, then you might want to reevaluate your composition and strategy.

The Chad Jihad
Feb 24, 2007



Yeah it's basically the AI seeing it as you 'paying' them with credibility, and it also gives some encouragement to use it on wars that are likely anyways to get some extra cash or diplomatic rep out of it. Mental fluff I use is that Cao Cao is handing a 'completely legitimate' casus belli to them, without any need for them to work up a justification and the diplomatic and administrative momentum for it themselves

Or in short
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SPk3NjYfmQ

The Chad Jihad fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Sep 13, 2020

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Dramicus posted:

I understand he wanted to go to war, I'm just saying its dumb that instead of just declaring war, he pays me to tell him to declare war.


One of the advanced arts of Total War is designing your army in a way that minimizes micro. If you can't easily split your army into 3 control groups, then you might want to reevaluate your composition and strategy.
Not so much when you have two reinforcing armies, potentially into a large siege however.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Flipswitch posted:

Not so much when you have two reinforcing armies, potentially into a large siege however.

It's going to be more work, yes. But you can still design your armies to fit into 3 control groups. In a siege it may not be so practical to insist on only 3, but for most of the fight you won't be using several types of units (cav, shieldless infantry, etc) so during the initial assault you can still have a very manageable workload, and since massing ranged units and having overwhelming fire superiority is so powerful, I still think having your reinforcements meet and attacking one point is going to be most effective. You will be able to quickly burn away towers, clear the walls and force entry, ideally at a sapping point. 3 armies worth of archers are better off concentrated, so that's 1 group, and depending on how many breaches you have, you are still really only going to have 1-2 control groups for the assaulting infantry, because concentration is superior to splitting your forces. If you want to split the ai, that can be done by just having 1 or 2 cav sitting on the other side of the city. If you only attack one side, the enemy will have all their poo poo on that side, and it will be vulnerable to your archers/crossbows(which you have more of than they do) while your shielded infantry press the breach.

In most situations you can work just fine with 3-4 control groups, anything more is usually just for special cases.

Airspace
Nov 5, 2010


Whut.

There are Nanman in my pre-expansion game?!

I also randomly got an achievement for winning a battle against an opponent fielding an elephant unit, and today I entered no battles at all. Playing as Kong Rong.

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

How often do you have two reinforcing armies that doesnt result in a decisive victory autocomplete lol

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

How often do you have two reinforcing armies that doesnt result in a decisive victory autocomplete lol

That is also true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqtBDU7-O0g

This is a good summary of tactics fundamentals in 3k. I agree with 90% of what he says, I think he is too pessimistic about sieges though.

Funky See Funky Do
Aug 20, 2013
STILL TRYING HARD

These gates are so frustrating. They don't do anything! They're just a settlement the AI avoids. If they actually blocked off access that'd be great but every single gate has an alternate path practically right next to it. The AI just goes around every single time. I haven't had them attack a single gate 100 turns in.

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

How often do you have two reinforcing armies that doesnt result in a decisive victory autocomplete lol
Sometimes I wanna play them. Options to do so without it being a huge mess is nice. I've also had a couple where it's 6 stacks facing off in a 3v3 but a way to smoothen that would be neat.


E: Has anyone tried Yuan Shu since the changes to his abilities? I'm going to give his 194 a go later I think.

Flipswitch fucked around with this message at 08:48 on Sep 13, 2020

The Doomhammer
Feb 14, 2010



Playing Yuan Shu right now, going all-in on his unique units (and the generic saber warriors Dead Baron added) because SHIELDS ARE FOR WEAKLINGS. I usually play on the defense so basically having to attack and keep all my units in melee so they don't get pincushioned to death is fun, and the cheaper melee infantry and charge bonus definitely fit with that. The cheaper resource buildings is nice, but whether its a buff over his old straight 20% buff on commerce/industry probably depends on how many you have.

Map wise he's similar to what was before, need to make sure you don't screw up your early diplomacy. He gets more legitimacy based on his rank now which is nice but doesn't help you much at the start. His dilemmas are my favourite in the game because they have some real stakes to them. Choosing to face Liu Biao early is pretty hard (unless his vassals have turned on him, as they sometimes do) but Sun Jian is literally the only person in the world who seems to like you, and is your best source of legitimacy early on so its not a great idea to screw him over. Announcing your ambitions pisses everyone off, but the buffs are so strong it always almost seems worth it, and maaaybe if you're set up well enough you can deal with it this time...

194 Yuan Shu has a much easier start than 190, you start off with Sun Ce and Wu jing as vassals (though they don't give you legitimacy because they're not the right kind of vassal...) and as long as you remember to annex Sun Ce after 10 turns (and prepare for Wu Jings inevitable betrayal) it's pretty smooth sailing.

The Doomhammer fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Sep 13, 2020

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



Just won the Emperor's seat victory as Shamoke.

Overall a cool campaign, and the end game was actually fun against Yuan Shao's vassal swarm.

I'd recommend giving it a go since it was a fun challenge, trying to keep people pleased whilst Shamoke tanks satisfaction. Just don't be like me and only realise halfway through that cities don't give Naman prestige, you have to build the yellow line buildings for that

Think I'll wait until the next hotfix/patch now though. The walking bug and disappearing items bug almost killed my drive to finish.

Edit: Also one of my favourite things about the Nanman campaign was the elephant idle animation where the elephants asks for food

Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Sep 13, 2020

Captain Beans
Aug 5, 2004

Whar be the beans?

Hair Elf

Airspace posted:

Whut.

There are Nanman in my pre-expansion game?!

I also randomly got an achievement for winning a battle against an opponent fielding an elephant unit, and today I entered no battles at all. Playing as Kong Rong.

yea they got patched into everyone's game even if you don't own the dlc, along with the map updates.

if you want to roll back you can downgrade to the pre-expansion patch using steam -> right click three kingdoms -> properties -> betas -> 1.5.3 old


Flipswitch posted:

Anyone here use the Let the AI control mod for 3k? Seems like it might be useful for cutting down the micro in larger battles.

I use it simply because it seems to generate more interesting battles when I give control of 1 or 2 retinues to the friendly AI. If you have played RTS games for years the AI isn't really much of a challenge in battles, but that's just because if you have 100% control over all your units you can micro the AI to death too easily. I also find it an interesting way to increase the difficulty without using the battle difficulty slider past HARD, it's not really 'harder' to have the AI get magical stat bonuses so your elite melee troops get whooped by militia, just annoying and makes you rely on missile troops more. But giving control of your units over the AI certinally increases the difficulty in it's own way.

Yea sure the AI is kind of stupid when it controls your units, but personally I consider that pretty on brand for drunken aggressive generals of the Three Kingdoms period anyway.

Captain Beans fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Sep 13, 2020

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Thanks! I'll give it a go with a Yuan Shu campaign. Looking forward to trying him.

Airspace
Nov 5, 2010


Captain Beans posted:

yea they got patched into everyone's game even if you don't own the dlc, along with the map updates.

if you want to roll back you can downgrade to the pre-expansion patch using steam -> right click three kingdoms -> properties -> betas -> 1.5.3 old

Eh, I'm almost as far away from them as you can get, but that doesn't explain how I got the achievement. I did vassalize someone down there so my guess is that my vassal killed the Nanman army that I saw.

I'm just super impressed they managed to make them work with pre-expansion saves without anything going wrong.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Oh wow, I wish I had played more with the espionage system in 3 kingdoms. In my current Cao Cao game the Dong Zhou assassination event never happened, so he has spent most of the game in a hell-war in the northern mountains with an alliance of Yuan Shao and Zhang Yan. I randomly check the spies and Dong Zhou's wife is listed as a potential turn-coat. So I recruit her, because I thought it would be funny and I notice I can get her to piss off Lu Bu, so naturally I do that. Next turn Lu Bu shows up as a potential turncoat, so I recruit him and his cover grows so quickly that I'll be able to have him assassinate Dong Zhou in a couple turns.

It looks like you can steal characters by infiltrating a faction and discrediting them. I'm going to make a lot of use of this in the future.

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


Dramicus posted:

Oh wow, I wish I had played more with the espionage system in 3 kingdoms. In my current Cao Cao game the Dong Zhou assassination event never happened, so he has spent most of the game in a hell-war in the northern mountains with an alliance of Yuan Shao and Zhang Yan. I randomly check the spies and Dong Zhou's wife is listed as a potential turn-coat. So I recruit her, because I thought it would be funny and I notice I can get her to piss off Lu Bu, so naturally I do that. Next turn Lu Bu shows up as a potential turncoat, so I recruit him and his cover grows so quickly that I'll be able to have him assassinate Dong Zhou in a couple turns.

It looks like you can steal characters by infiltrating a faction and discrediting them. I'm going to make a lot of use of this in the future.

The initial spy system had a lot of flaws which have probably kept people from playing with it after the overall but it can be very powerful when you get it going. During my Sima Lun campaign I utterly crippled Jin Empire, gouged it of oodles of cash while splitting it in two with a civil war. During my Liu Chong gang I completely crippled Yuan Shu and had administrators turn over their commanderies three times to me. When you can get it working it's amazing.

The spy reforms being way better now went a long way to helping spycraft.

The Doomhammer
Feb 14, 2010



Yeah, I usually take all the spy reforms because it feels good to utterly cripple your biggest rival with a few well-placed assassinations or spamming poison/deny supplies and watch their invading stacks vanish before your eyes.

Also very good for Yuan Shu because turncoats are the only way he has to recruit officers by spending cash instead of legitimacy.

Meyers-Briggs Testicle
Aug 13, 2012

But without the hero, there is no Event.


Buglord

Cao cao with spy reforms is the ultimate puppetmaster playthrough, it rules

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

So I had a change of plan, I let Dong Zhuo's wife kill him and get captured in the process, and told Lu Bu to escape to my faction. I'm sure nothing bad will come of this, surely Lu Bu won't betray me.

Edit: The "Pacifier of the Han" title doesn't seem to work on him. This is a good start.

Dramicus fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Sep 14, 2020

The Doomhammer
Feb 14, 2010



It should, it just takes a turn to register the change for whatever reason.

alex314
Nov 22, 2007


It sucks that Han generals employed in Nanman faction can't recruit Han units. I wish I could field sword cav to counter enemies and snipe generals.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

The Doomhammer posted:

It should, it just takes a turn to register the change for whatever reason.

I see, I'll keep that in mind next time. This time I did the old "adopt and make heir" trick that works well enough. Besides, Cao Cao's sons are pretty underwhelming. I probably wouldn't have the heart to do it if I were playing as Sun Jian though.


alex314 posted:

It sucks that Han generals employed in Nanman faction can't recruit Han units. I wish I could field sword cav to counter enemies and snipe generals.

You can unlock Cav at the bottom-left of the middle reform tree. Though, I do agree it would be nice to at least have access to basic Han units through Han generals. I understand locking out the more advanced units, but the militia roster should be available to recruit.

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



This Yuan Shu campaign has been really fun.
I crushed Liu Chong and made him into a Vassal and gave him a small territory before letting Sun Ce wander South, opted to not Annex him as it felt a bit fluffy to keep him on the leash but I might Annex Chong for him a d Luo Jun.

Just stormed Liu Biao's turf and captured his general and vassals so my court is suitably massive now with some great generals (Including Zheng Jiang, though I have no idea where Qu Gong or Lu Zheng are, I'll have to hunt them down).

I really like the way Gates work as borders, but I think the mod from Alex Zhao's Gate mod is a must. Otherwise the AI just doesn't know what to do about them and sails past.

Captain Beans
Aug 5, 2004

Whar be the beans?

Hair Elf

Flipswitch posted:

This Yuan Shu campaign has been really fun.
I crushed Liu Chong and made him into a Vassal and gave him a small territory before letting Sun Ce wander South, opted to not Annex him as it felt a bit fluffy to keep him on the leash but I might Annex Chong for him a d Luo Jun.

Just stormed Liu Biao's turf and captured his general and vassals so my court is suitably massive now with some great generals (Including Zheng Jiang, though I have no idea where Qu Gong or Lu Zheng are, I'll have to hunt them down).

I really like the way Gates work as borders, but I think the mod from Alex Zhao's Gate mod is a must. Otherwise the AI just doesn't know what to do about them and sails past.

What changes regarding the AI and gates using that mod?

Funky See Funky Do
Aug 20, 2013
STILL TRYING HARD

Captain Beans posted:

What changes regarding the AI and gates using that mod?

It removes an equipment requirement which apparently will prompt the AI to attack more often. I haven't had a chance to test it myself yet so I dunno if it works or not.

e: It works. Got attacked on my first turn in since installing it.

Funky See Funky Do fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Sep 15, 2020

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Yeah it drops the siege weapons requirement.

puppets freak me out
Dec 18, 2015



That sounds promising. I've got Kui Pass fully upgraded and Badong fortified, and enemy armies just sail by every time. I love the map changes and inclusion of mountain passes, but this is the single rough patch.

McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


puppets freak me out posted:

That sounds promising. I've got Kui Pass fully upgraded and Badong fortified, and enemy armies just sail by every time. I love the map changes and inclusion of mountain passes, but this is the single rough patch.

If Kui is the one right above Badong then even if that space was flat-out clear it would just be ignored. The terrain there is awful and there's no reason to ever walk it.

Flipswitch
Mar 30, 2010



Yeah is that area bugged? It takes a crazy amount of time to march between the two settlements.

Blooming Brilliant
Jul 12, 2010



Think that's by design. Pretty sure that area is a forested mountain pass, and Shu's thing was being surrounded by a bunch of treacherous forested mountain passes.

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McTimmy
Feb 29, 2008


Yeah, attacking Shu directly historically was miserable as all hell. Even Jiang Wei's incompetent rear end was able to hold off ever after he screwed over the defenses and Deng Ai had to launch an incredibly risky raid to slip around the front lines.

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