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Schwartzcough posted:Lancers don't seem like they would be that great in 1 on 1 fights in Tactics.
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Feb 19, 2013 01:41
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Archael posted:Everyone always critizes Ramza's Squire class, but it's actually one of the best jobs to be in for a 1v1: Haste, Regen, +1 PA, Shields, Crossbows. When FFT was first released (that's Vanilla), I know there was quite a bit of silly "Orlandu is much better than Ramza!" discussion, but I kind of thought by now people (or at least anyone who uses the internet anyway) were pretty aware of Ramza's strengths.
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Feb 19, 2013 03:01
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Davzz posted:When FFT was first released (that's Vanilla), I know there was quite a bit of silly "Orlandu is much better than Ramza!" discussion, but I kind of thought by now people (or at least anyone who uses the internet anyway) were pretty aware of Ramza's strengths. Yeah. I feel like Square meant for him to be a "support" character and gave him a bunch of leadership-sounding skills, but weren't expecting everyone to have him buff himself and become a physical god.
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Feb 19, 2013 03:26
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Tallgeese posted:Don't all these tactics mentioned involve hoping the RNG doesn't roll certain weapons or skills? I could have sworn Wiegraf has at least one physical weapon option. This is also a criticism that has been leveled at the 1.3 incarnation of the Deep Dungeon: The fight variety is vast, but the setups ideal for each fight are quite a bit different, meaning you only sort of know whether you're going to be prepared for any given version of each map. So you either reload until you get the fight you actually prepared for, or just try to roll with the most general setup possible, which tends to be very disadvantaged in the DD because of how insane the fights get.
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Feb 19, 2013 04:13
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Archael posted:Lancers rock in 1v1, as long as you know when to wait in place and how to read CT. But I mean, do they offer any advantages beyond their equipment options (which I don't remember being all that amazing) and a 1.5x damage physical attack in Jump? You can't take advantage of Jump's invincibility in 1v1 because the enemy needs to get a turn for you to avoid an attack, but if they get a turn they are going to move and you will miss. Now if you were dealing with a spellcasting enemy, that'd be one thing; but Wiegraf doesn't have charging moves. I mean, I guess a class with heavy armor, shields, and a 2-range attack is good, but...
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Feb 19, 2013 06:31
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Schwartzcough posted:You can't take advantage of Jump's invincibility in 1v1 because the enemy needs to get a turn for you to avoid an attack, but if they get a turn they are going to move and you will miss. Hmm, good point. I always taken the "Lancers good in 1v1" thing for granted... but I never really used Lancers. I just think Jump is a really boring skillset so I don't have personal experience. For the people who did use Lancer in this battle, does the AI basically just go "durrr" and stands still to receive your Jumps because there's no valid targets on the map? Or is there some kind of perfect CT timing trick to pull off being in the air during the enemy's turn AND still landing your jump?
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Feb 19, 2013 06:51
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Davzz posted:Hmm, good point. I always taken the "Lancers good in 1v1" thing for granted... but I never really used Lancers. I just think Jump is a really boring skillset so I don't have personal experience. You'd have to immobilize or predict, since the AI always moves if it can.
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Feb 19, 2013 07:12
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And most 1 on 1 bosses are likely to be immune to Don't Move. Plus, I think the AI is smart enough not to move to a space you've targeted for jumping unless it's got a drat good reason to move there, so predicting doesn't help.
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Feb 19, 2013 07:18
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It seems like in theory you could capitalize on Jump invincibility if you were faster than them by a bit. Keep jumping without moving to save CT and dodge attacks without doing damage, secure in the knowledge that eventually you'll be able to sneak in two. The applicability of that to 1.3 is...questionable at best.
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Feb 19, 2013 07:47
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Sorites posted:It seems like in theory you could capitalize on Jump invincibility if you were faster than them by a bit. Keep jumping without moving to save CT and dodge attacks without doing damage, secure in the knowledge that eventually you'll be able to sneak in two. Except that while you're in the air, the opponent will move, not act (because the AI won't act if there's nothing to do, of course), and start the count with 20 CT instead of 0 while you have to work with a full 100. You'd need to be significantly faster than your opponent for such a plan to work (such that 80/theirspeed is less than 100/yourspeed) Wiegraf having 9 speed means you'd need to have at least 12 speed to pull this off. That might be possible, but I'm not sure. Either way, if you were managing to outspeed Wiegraf by that much, getting four turns to his three, I don't think you'd be having any issues with most any strategy.
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Feb 19, 2013 08:10
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Oh. Right. My little theory was operating on the assumption that he's charging an attack for you to dodge, but that's a bit of a stretch. Never mind.
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Feb 19, 2013 08:22
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Schwartzcough posted:But I mean, do they offer any advantages beyond their equipment options (which I don't remember being all that amazing) and a 1.5x damage physical attack in Jump? You can't take advantage of Jump's invincibility in 1v1 because the enemy needs to get a turn for you to avoid an attack, but if they get a turn they are going to move and you will miss. Now if you were dealing with a spellcasting enemy, that'd be one thing; but Wiegraf doesn't have charging moves. You are looking at it all wrong (vanilla mentality?) quote:but if they get a turn they are going to move and you will miss. Are Lancers really that under-appreciated / misunderstood? Borderline OP job if you ask me :| Archael fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Feb 19, 2013 |
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Feb 19, 2013 08:29
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Archael posted:Lancer is good in 1v1 not because of the air-time invincibility (obviously), but because you have a fast, high HP, high evasion stack tank with a no MP no charge time unevadeable 6 panel range attack, that you can spam all while not needing to move, saving CT vs a dumb AI that moves around every turn - aaand still has a free Support Ability slot free for whatever it wants. Well, Jump DOES have a charge time (arguably the most irritating of charge times, since you have to calculate it in your head, as opposed to other skills where you can just see where it'll execute in the AT list; plus, you can't speed it up with Short Charge), and it can be blocked by at least Blade Grasp, so it's not totally unevadeable. Also, I'm PRETTY sure Jumping does not benefit from not moving- you land with 50 CT normally, or 75 CT if hasted, regardless of whether you moved or not before jumping. This actually leads to problems if you and your opponent don't have the same speed, since you'll start getting offset turns where you will either have to stand around waiting while they attack you, or jump knowing that you will miss. I'm not saying a 1.5x strength regular attack at range with a long charge time is BAD, but I don't see it as being all that impressive compared to other options either. Especially when that is the Lancer's ONLY trick, compared to the versatility of most other skillsets. Edit: ALSO, Lancers have really poor synergy with the main physical support skills. Jump is not improved by Attack Up, Martial Arts, or Two-Handed. As stated, Short Charge doesn't help. They can't use Two Swords, and Two Handed removes their shield advantage. Spears don't tend to have amazing WP or abusable gimmicks. Lancers have crappy MA and MP and so make terrible carriers of magical secondaries. To exacerbate this, 1.3 removed their ability to equip robes, so they're not even particularly good with faith-based magics like Time Magic or Yin-Yang due to their horribly low MP. I would not call them overpowered at all. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Feb 19, 2013 |
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Feb 19, 2013 08:51
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Archael posted:quote: but if they get a turn they are going to move and you will miss. I think when he was saying this, it was focused on the 1v1 applicability. And in 1v1, you don't have the option to cherry-pick targets. If the CT works out that the opponent gets a move before Jump lands, you're stuck with either using a Jump that's guaranteed to miss (hope that Wiegraf doesn't Chakra or use a Swordskill timed to go off right after you land) OR using Wait and eat the damage.
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Feb 19, 2013 13:16
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Archael posted:Are Lancers really that under-appreciated / misunderstood? Borderline OP job if you ask me :| Lancers are awesome, but they're really inflexible. Jump demands a particular type of weapon, which limits your other skills to some degree. Jump itself is about spending half the game out of action so that makes some reaction abilities less powerful (mostly the Counter variants, since those improve in value the more you can trigger them. Lancer getting Dragon Spirit is actually a nice touch, it's one of the few Reactions they can make excellent use of, needing no more than one activation to get full value). In addition, Jump always has the same CTR (for a given character build). Where with Charge (oh god what am I doing) you can usually find a Charge option to hit the enemy, and even if you can't you can still attack them normally, Jump is all or nothing: either you hit 50 CT before they hit 100, or you don't make an effective Jump this AT. For other classes, Jump is a ranged physical attack unless they spend a support option of Equip Spear. There's very few classes that are willing to either a) spend their support ability to do 50% more damage with their secondary skill or b) want a ranged (PA * WP) attack. Lancers themselves have few options. They have probably if not the worst magical stats in the game, which knocks out most of the power skillsets (Black, White, Summon, Draw Out) and their poor MP (compounded in 1.3) means that Time and Yin Yang aren't options either. A spear means the weapon range skillsets aren't too hot (Battle Skill and, in 1.3, Precision). Martial Arts is technically an option to work with Punch Art, but then you're basically trading two slots on your Lancer for Chakra and Revive which isn't exactly exciting. Anyway, if healing and revival make you hot then Item/Throw Item is a better set for your Lancer then, as that covers everything you'd want Punch Art for except with real numbers. After that, I guess there's Basic Skill? I mean, Throw's there, but using Throw to chuck stuff at range when you have Jump is still unexciting. In the end, Lancers are basically more durable, more powerful vanilla Archers. They can hit hard, take hard hits in return, and...that's about it. Their skill is parasitic, their equipment options are few, their stat spread is laughable. Their advantage is hitting stuff hard from halfway across the map and being untouchable for half the battle. That's pretty powerful, and pretty useful, but it's still a one trick pony.
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Feb 19, 2013 13:40
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Several other weapon types have been buffed to the point where you don't have to jump with a spear. For example, Axes work fine for jumping, and so do Magic Guns (so if you want to grind in Mediator for Equip Gun, you can do something like subbing Battle Skill/Precision on a Lancer), if you want to freshen things up a bit. I mean heck, Golem Axe has like a +3 PA bonus... I can see some kind of male Geomancer/Jump axe build. But yeah, Jump's effective but boring.
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Feb 19, 2013 14:30
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Lancer is probably the best itembot in 1.3, but that only really matters in group fights. I don't see its particular advantage over UberSquire for 1v1s, bearing in mind that all 1v1s are fought with Ramza. If your duel character didn't have the ability to equip armor and shields in his base class, have good stats all around, and a great support Primary that synergizes well with lots of different Secondary/Reaction/Support abilities, I could see a case being made for Lancer. But Ramza in particular can do a lot better, and you never really 1v1 as anybody else, so who gives a poo poo? For AI battles, I don't know exactly. I know Archael made a Lancer support unit for some of the various FFT AI tournaments and was always effective, so I see his love for the class, but those were usually team setups where his character could shine as a tanky support.
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Feb 19, 2013 15:27
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Schwartzcough posted:Well, Jump DOES have a charge time (arguably the most irritating of charge times, since you have to calculate it in your head, as opposed to other skills where you can just see where it'll execute in the AT list; plus, you can't speed it up with Short Charge), and it can be blocked by at least Blade Grasp, so it's not totally unevadeable. Also, I'm PRETTY sure Jumping does not benefit from not moving- you land with 50 CT normally, or 75 CT if hasted, regardless of whether you moved or not before jumping. This actually leads to problems if you and your opponent don't have the same speed, since you'll start getting offset turns where you will either have to stand around waiting while they attack you, or jump knowing that you will miss. It sounds to me like you are theorycrafting about how Jump would work in a 1v1 scenario based on what you've read about Jump mechanics instead of actually using the skill itself while playing with the CT system. If you plan to tank your enemy in the first place, Jump becomes absolutely brutal. quote:Lancers lack versatiliy, one trick pony, etc etc Archael fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 19, 2013 |
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Feb 19, 2013 18:48
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Davzz posted:Several other weapon types have been buffed to the point where you don't have to jump with a spear. For example, Axes work fine for jumping, and so do Magic Guns (so if you want to grind in Mediator for Equip Gun, you can do something like subbing Battle Skill/Precision on a Lancer), if you want to freshen things up a bit. I mean heck, Golem Axe has like a +3 PA bonus... I can see some kind of male Geomancer/Jump axe build. With Axes, maybe, but you're still usually going to do more damage with a spear thanks to the 1.5 multiplier. Plus spears are 2-range weapons for normal attacks, which allows you to avoid a number of counters; in most instances I find that more useful than an Axe. As for guns, they already have an instant 8-range attack compared to the Lancer's charging 6-range attack, so the utility of combining guns and Jump is questionable. Plus, the magic guns require a high faith for normal usage, which is mostly just a liability on a Lancer who can't use any other faith-based skills reliably. Another problem with Lancers in 1.3: their increased speed. I know, it's crazy, but hear me out. In an optimal scenario, your units with charging offensive skills have the exact same speed as the enemy units. When two units get a turn at the same time, the AI gets priority. Maps are usually big enough that the computer usually won't be able to reach you on its first turn, so they'll advance and wait or if you're lucky, start charging. Now you'll get your turn and have an entire turn's worth of time to charge your own skills on the enemy, sure in the knowledge you will hit them. If you're lucky, you'll hit them mid-charge for extra damage. On the next turn, the same thing repeats, and you can still be sure to hit them even if they advanced and waited last turn. Since the AI always moves and acts, and Jumping counts as moving and acting, this will likely continue for the battle. Even if you're slightly slower than the enemy, you can probably count on getting several jumps in before their speed advantage starts screwing things up. But if you're faster, the opposite happens. You get the first turn- if you jump, you know you'll miss because they'll be moving soon. So you can just "Wait" to start with 40 CT. Now the CT of you and the enemy is wildly out of whack, and you have to start crunching numbers to figure out whether your future jumps will will work. And if you're faster, you and the enemy will have a different CT every turn, require constant CT monitoring to figure out when your jumps will work. Edit: Archael posted:Jump is instant in a 1v1 scenario if you know how to use the skill. Well, by that logic, Holy or Meteor can be "instant" too. Schwartzcough fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Feb 19, 2013 |
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Feb 19, 2013 18:57
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Archael posted:(vanilla mentality?) Is this what an FFT  looks like?
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Feb 19, 2013 18:59
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Schwartzcough posted:Well, by that logic, Holy or Meteor can be "instant" too. Sure, you can get a 1 turn Holy or Meteor, but they'd still not be as effective as Jump is in a 1v1 scenario.
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Feb 19, 2013 19:16
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Archael posted:No. Magic leaves you vulnerable while you're charging, and spells like that are much slower (even with Short Charge) and harder to manipulate in the CT environment, unlike Jump. Archael, could you perhaps clarify for those of us reading the thread who don't have an extensive knowledge of the game mechanics why the Lancer (and more specifically, Jump) is so good in a 1v1 situation? You've mentioned that the lancer gets good gear equips innately, and so can end up very tanky and evasive. What I'm not understanding is how you leverage this into an advantage over using, say, magic or a different physical class. Unless you're doubling the enemy's speed, it seems that in most circumstances using Jump you're limited to jumping only when the enemy will not get an action before you land - thereby restricting you to acting at the same rate as the enemy, so your speed advantage is ignored. Basically could you break it down for us newbies?
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Feb 19, 2013 22:34
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Archael posted:I'm not saying the Lancer is the master of synergy or a jack of all trades, only that they are very effective in 1v1 due to the way their skillset interacts with the CT system. Oh, of course, but you were asking why Lancers were unpopular, and that's pretty much why. In a game that enables all sorts of different options, Lancers and Jump are painfully straightforward. Effective, but straightforward.
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Feb 19, 2013 22:36
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Archael posted:No. Magic leaves you vulnerable while you're charging, and spells like that are much slower (even with Short Charge) and harder to manipulate in the CT environment, unlike Jump. But, wait. I thought the point many people are raising is that you have to one-turn with Jump, or else the enemy will move and you will miss. Because enemies always move if they are able, due to a quirk in the AI. So yeah, the spells are slower and that's definitely a downside, but either way you're having to use the exact same CT manipulation to guarantee your spell/jump goes off before the other person's turn. Otherwise it's wasted.
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Feb 19, 2013 23:35
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Olesh posted:You've mentioned that the lancer gets good gear equips innately, and so can end up very tanky and evasive. What I'm not understanding is how you leverage this into an advantage over using, say, magic or a different physical class. What can Wiegraf do vs a high-evasion Lancer? The Lancer can literally wait in place and Jump whenever Wiegraf is below 50 CT, for a 100% high damage 6 range nuke. If Wiegraf is over 50 CT, you just wait in place and let him run around doing not much of anything. You basically won the 1v1 just by being a high evasion Lancer. No PA stacking required, no regen, no haste, not even a reaction or support ability was needed. Now let's say you wanted to 1v1 Wiegraf as a Caster with Holy or another big nuke. Can you already start to imagine the complex list of things you're going to need to mix and match to make that work? Your spell won't be OHKO'ing Wiegraf, so you can't bank on a 1 turn Holy lining up with the CT to save your rear end in one turn. You'd need not only an evasion setup to survive, but also some sort of way to make sure you don't get mid-charged consistently so you can land your magic. (Assuming he doesn't just MP break you if his AI notices you casting too much stuff.) Let's say you wanted to 1v1 Wiegraf with another physical job, you'd basically try to mix and match Monk, Marksman, Geomancer, Knight, or something else to mirror the elements that the Lancer brings to the table innately. Specifically, for Monk you'd want Equip Shield + Mantle + Repeated Fist Spam (100% but limited targeting). For Knight, you'd want Concentrate as well as a way to chase him around the map in case you PA ruined him and he reverted to Shock spam. For Geomancer, well, actually, Geomancer could also kick rear end 1v1 due to their innate equips and 100% attacks, so Geomancer would also be very good 1v1. Remember that Wiegraf can heal. You guys should go test stuff out vs him in 1v1 to get a feel of what I'm talking about. If you don't Accumulate spam, it really is a full blown duel. His only options aren't just offensive ones. quote:But, wait. I thought the point many people are raising is that you have to one-turn with Jump
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Feb 20, 2013 00:27
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I've never bothered to Accumulate Spam for Riovanes #2; the past playthroughs have been Squire Ramza with xbow or Elemental. I can see how Lancer would be roughly as good as Squire or Geomancer in Ramza duels, especially as the spare support slot lets you do things like Item + Throw Item, or Punch Art + Martial Arts. Just musing, but if Lancers had innate Two Hands and/or Equip Change then they could swap between tanky-jumper and pointy-stick-murderbot. That or give the Lancer skillset a couple abilities for versatility (nothing comes to mind right now). Corvinus fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 01:48
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Corvinus posted:That or give the Lancer skillset a couple abilities for versatility (nothing comes to mind right now). Lancet, or some of the breath attacks they get in newer games? I guess they'd basically become Reis.
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Feb 20, 2013 02:12
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I don't know if there's any balance issues into making the Lancer even stronger, but technical side: Jump is one of those very hardcoded skillsets along with Charge and Item that doesn't play well with putting other skills in. (Before someone says Precision, Timed Strike actually doesn't completely follow normal Charge functionality. It's just an ability which looks really similar to a Charge attack. For example, one difference is that it only uses a PA formula even if the original weapon doesn't)
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Feb 20, 2013 03:24
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Davzz posted:I don't know if there's any balance issues into making the Lancer even stronger, but technical side: Jump is one of those very hardcoded skillsets along with Charge and Item that doesn't play well with putting other skills in. True, the specific spells that are Horizontal/Vertical Jump are hardcoded, but additional skills can be pilfered from other skillsets and added.
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Feb 20, 2013 03:35
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Innate Two Hands would probably make Lancers a more popular pick. I'd like to use an endgame spear on one of my characters instead of a knight sword or katana, just to switch things up. But you need to be either Samurai with Equip Spear or Lancer with Two Hands, which leaves no room for Concentrate or Attack Up. (Not that they improve Jump) With plenty of bosses and mini-bosses having innate Defense Up, one-handed spears end up plinking for around 80 damage or so, and that just doesn't cut it later on. Plus you could always use a shield if you need evasion instead of damage.
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Feb 20, 2013 03:38
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Archael posted:Are Lancers really that under-appreciated / misunderstood? Borderline OP job if you ask me :| I suspect the CT system in general is pretty arcane to most people even after being told it's important to track. Witness beginners to 1.3 flailing in chapter 2 because they can't read the CT order and end up sandbagging themselves into a corner. FWIW Lancer is how I did this duel in 1.3, and how I've always done this duel since I was like 12 years old. Except when I was 12 I used jump every single turn cause what the gently caress is CT when you're that young?!
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Feb 20, 2013 17:11
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Episode 31: On the Roof of Riovanes Castle In the last episode, we killed our rival Wiegraf and the Lucavi of the Aries stone, Velius. Meanwhile, Vormav, after killing just about everyone in Riovanes, including his own son Izlude, kidnapped Alma, who it turns out is some key piece in a mysterious prophecy.  There's still plenty to do in Riovanes, however, and to wrap up Chapter 3 we're headed to the roof.  Rafa confronts the Grand Duke, who has fled here to escape the carnage that Vormav is wreaking down below.  Now, Barinten has been grooming the Galthanas twins all their lives to be his personal tools of murder and intimidation.  Even with any possibility of an alliance with the Church (and therefor his ambitions to the throne) shattered, not to mention a Lucavi rampaging through his stronghold murdering his troops, the Grand Duke seeps arrogance.  Rafa, however, is out for blood, and she probably deserves to shed some.  Sick of mincing words, she pulls a sword on her former foster father. (  Heaven Knights can't equip Swords. ) Barinten, however, has never believed in fighting fair. He's brought a gun to a sword fight.  Now, there are many kinds of evil in Ivalice, as in the world.  Dycedarg is scheming, callous, and ambitious. Wiegraf was spiteful, arrogant, and vengeful. Gafgarion killed for money; Vormav kills dispassionately.  In a world packed full of grand villains, Barinten is just a scumbag.  Right on cue, Malak makes his entrance.  This was likely Rafa's plan all along. Had she simply killed Barinten, her brother may have never forgiven her. Instead, he had to hear how vile the Grand Duke is for himself.  With Barinten's true face exposed, Rafa can now put a sword through it. Of course, there's the matter of that pistol pointed right at her heart. (Remember, this is a cut-scene gun, so one shot is all it takes.)  Rafa prepares to lunge, Barinten prepares to fire, and Malak...  ...shoves his sister out of the path of the bullet.  The Hell Knight falls to the floor (ceiling?) and stops moving.  Well, good thing we showed up just in time!   Barinten seems to believe that the Zodiac Stone is the only trump card he might be able to play right now. I'm not sure about the wisdom there: he knows it's got powerful magic, but clearly doesn't know how to harness that power. I suppose with Vormav carving a bloody path through the Fovoham army below, the Grand Duke is scrambling for any out he can find.  He's so intent on getting his paws on the Stone, in fact, that he doesn't notice the well-dressed young lady walking up behind him.  Of course, when that young lady grabs him by the throat and lifts him into the air with one hand, then he notices.  Without a word, the mystery woman flings the Grand Duke Barinten, one of the most powerful men in Ivalice, off of the roof of his own castle. If poo poo got real before, it just got a whole lot realer.  Enter the Marquis Elmdor.  Now, the audience has every reason to be surprised by the Marquis' appearance, since “What the gently caress is he doing here and who the hell is that woman?” is an entirely valid line of questioning. On the other hand, Prufrock should be doubly surprised. What the game doesn't tell you (unless you ask around for rumors at a tavern) is that the Marquis was recently killed in battle.  This line makes a little more sense when taken in that context.  Even among the formerly-dead, newly-resurrected, likely-demonically-possessed aristocrats demographic, our hero has made quite the name for himself.  One place I find FFT's script to be somewhat weak is giving Elmdor a voice.  I think he's supposed to sound smooth and silver-tongued, but they really should have gone full Seymour and hammed it up.  Anyway, Prufrock is back to listening people demand things in exchange for his sister (who he doesn't know is part of some thousand-year destiny).  This time though, he's done. We just hauled rear end halfway across the country and through a warzone, so gently caress 'em. Besides, hellspawn aren't exactly trustworthy.  We're two for two on Lucavi. Let's do this thing.  The mission objective says that in this battle, we've got to save Rafa. The mission objective is lying: in this battle, we've got to kick rear end. As soon as any of the three enemies drops to critical, the fight is won. Since Rafa is very fragile and her AI isn't exceptionally smart and all three of our opponents are bona fide murder machines, this battle should never last more than one round. (By the way, if you're wondering where Malak's body went, and why Fluellen appears to be deceased, it's because of the way the Onion Knight was added to the game.)  The two lovely ladies are Assassins, an enemy-only special job that packs a ton of nasty tricks.  Shadow Stitch is a ranged, instant, free, 100%-accurate Stop. And that's only the beginning of the bullshit they can pull, though that all will have to wait for a later time and place.  Elmdor, meanwhile, is basically a souped-up Samurai.  Kikuichimoji is a 5-panel, straight line AoE and deals the second highest damage out of any Draw Out attack.  Fortunately, despite his excellent stats, the Marquis isn't set up for full MA stacking. Still, that's easily more than a third of Rafa's total health.  It's possible, through judicious equipment selection, to get immunity to most of the really nasty Assassin attacks, which include Stop, Petrification, and Instant Death.  Further, Prufrock has a pretty low HP total and is already injured, so as single regular attack here would have been enough to K.O. him.  Knowing this, and that the AI doesn't look at reaction skills, it was easy enough to bait into Hamedo, giving Prufrock's team a vital early start in the damage race.  Marche's main purpose here is to sneak around the Assassin's own reaction ability, MP Switch.  A character with MP Switch will, Brave % of the time, shunt any damage they take over to their MP pool instead of their HP pool.  However, multi-attacks like Spirit Combo can deal some direct HP damage with attacks after the first, much like how Two Swords is a good way to get through Damage Split. All told, Marche manages to go for the full four hits here, dealing significant damage.  Speaking of Two Swords, up next is Prufrock who's taken up the way of the shinobi for this battle.  Most of what he needed to do he's done already with Hamedo, and though it would have been nice to connect a second time, it's not necessary. Both Fluellen and Agrias are on deck, and a hit from either of them will be enough to end the battle, so long as it gets through to HP.  Fortunately, MP Switch can only kick in so long as the user actually has any MP left. In retrospect, this might have gone faster if Fluellen had gone first and taken away all the Assassin's MP in one go...  ...but at this point, Agrias can easily bring it home.  With some nice numbers there, too. The Defender, won from Velius, boasts an impressive 16 WP.  As was mentioned, it only takes one enemy in critical health to end the fight.  And helpfully, Elmdor provides us with our next objective! Sorry Prufrock, but your sister is in another castle.   The day is ours.  As the sun  It's pretty sad; she came back here to rescue Malak, but he ended up dying to save her.  Prufrock's thoughts are with his own sister.  Suddenly, the Zodiac Stone begins to shine.  It seems the stones respond to many kinds of human emotion, from Wiegraf's anger to Rafa's grief.  Of course, both times we've seen a Zodiac Stone do anything, a nightmare entity ended up breaking through into the human realm. Prufrock's concern seems justified.  This time does seem different though. No ominous music to speak of.  A beam of red light pours down, surrounding Malak's corpse. (The fact that itt's the same animation as Full Life makes the moment a little less impressive.)  And just like that, Malak lives again.  No crazy demons, no interdimenional Hell rifts, not even so much as an Undead status affliction.   Remember kids: Zodiac Stones don't summon demons, madmen with Zodiac Stones summon demons.   And that's Chapter Three folks!
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Feb 20, 2013 20:27
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Rafa takes three hits? Thanks, Arachel, for toning this battle down.
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Feb 20, 2013 21:53
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Do the assassins still have headgear equipped to their accessory slots in this battle? And sure, it might not SEEM impressive to see Malak revived by a Full Life spell, but he has really low Faith! The caster must've had a crazy Faith score to pull that off.
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Feb 20, 2013 21:57
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Schwartzcough posted:And sure, it might not SEEM impressive to see Malak revived by a Full Life spell, but he has really low Faith! The caster must've had a crazy Faith score to pull that off. Or they'd been trying this whole time and it took all night to finally stick.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:07
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Rafa takes three hits? Thanks, Arachel, for toning this battle down. You forgot one of the best worst lines in the game? "I always though... Stones... More evil?" Or however it goes.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:21
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The "Elmdor died in battle" thing is also automatically appended to the Brave Story encyclopdia regardless of whether you visit taverns, IIRC. Though I don't think I've talked to anyone who knew that before seeing Elmdor again, rather than as a years-later "oh, by the way, you're supposed to be surprised here, did you know that?" They really should have mentioned it on screen at some point, maybe during one of the "war council" scenes.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:24
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Einander posted:The "Elmdor died in battle" thing is also automatically appended to the Brave Story encyclopdia regardless of whether you visit taverns, IIRC. Though I don't think I've talked to anyone who knew that before seeing Elmdor again, rather than as a years-later "oh, by the way, you're supposed to be surprised here, did you know that?" They really should have mentioned it on screen at some point, maybe during one of the "war council" scenes. I'm kind of disappointed there wasn't a larger change to this fight for the hack. Then again, the fight was already bullshit enough, I guess the most you could do was add numbers to it.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:36
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Adding numbers would be stupid, because Rafa is fragile enough already. The Assassins I believe do have better gear and more HP, however, so while it's still a race to put one into critical you do have to put forth more effort to do it. In comparison to the other parts of Riovanes in 1.3, it's certainly nothing special. It's more like a palate cleanser leading into Chapter 4, at which point 1.3 is basically done loving around. Yes, everything up to this point was more or less "loving around." This is where playthroughs often die. Not because of Riovanes Roof, but after. Part of that is that people often do an optional sidequest right away which has been jacked up to "balls hard" status due to the way 1.3 handles sidequests. But even that's still pretty winnable. Even so, Chapter 4 can be a real dick.
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Feb 20, 2013 22:45
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Bitching about Riovanes Roof always confused me; it's mechanically simple and, unless you done hosed up and don't have any +SPD gear, not that hard to beat it even before any of the assassins get a chance to move.
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Feb 21, 2013 00:49
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