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Preface: As of this writing I have the engine torn apart and just got the crank back from the machine shop. I have a mailing list for this rebuild that I've been writing at work instead of doing work, but since SA is blocked and I'm horribly lazy at home I haven't posted it here yet. UNTIL NOW. Stand by for intense amounts of pictures and droll rambling. I've had my 2002 Honda S2000 for 5 years and since 14k miles. In that time you'd think I would have learned to religiously check the oil, as these engines generally consume quite a bit of it. In this thread I will document the result of me being a giant moron and telling myself "it can wait until the next oil change" one too many times. On my way to work one morning I hear the kinds of sounds you don't want to ever hear. I towed it to some assholes who charged me $40 to turn it on, say "yep it's rod knock", and quote me $6500 for dropping a used 60k mile engine in. They were also gracious enough to offer to buy it from me for $1000. So I towed it home on 11/3.  Front plates make S2000s look like beavers. Dropped the oil pan:  Found this on the #3 rod:   Thankfully the spin was very slight. It took .008 off the journal and the bearings still had all their thickness. Time for a rebuild! 11/4 I started stripping the engine. It's probably important to note that I'm taking my time with this and value space over time savings. Here’s a pretty picture of the fuel rail, with large plastic banjo bolt connection I was trying to take off and random pointy stud I destroyed my fingernail on when aforementioned banjo bolt connection broke loose:  After the Honda’s bloodlust was satiated, I turned my attention below the intake manifold. Nice little look into the gaping maw below the intake manifold and behind all the accessories. That’s a lot of hoses:  Belt off, tensioner off, random tensioner mount and intake brace off, alternator out. Note the huge pulley for the Frankenstein water pump. The thermostat is behind it and the lower radiator hose turns 90 degrees towards it at the green electrical connection. Also note the two metal lines bottom right going to the A/C compressor, which is decidedly in the damned way of everything:  Here’s a look under the intake manifold. What. Oh god:  And now with the water pump off and the A/C compressor moved out of the way:  Another close-up of under the intake manifold. Note the “Dreaded Starter Bolt of Death” everyone struggles with on the clutch jobs. It’s the orange bolt to the right of the green wiring connection. Also note the bolts in a line at the top left. After those come off (and some stuff for the EGR on the back) the intake manifold is coming off. Note the position of the starter. Whomever designed that to be there was probably fired shortly after:  Here’s how it looked at the end of work 11/4. At some point I took the hood off:  Yes, the hammer was necessary.
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Dec 14, 2012 16:32
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Day 2 of the rebuild, 11/5. Weird, overdesigned waterpump:  Slowly but surely most of the hoses under the intake came out so I could get to the back bolts:  I was eventually able to wrestle the Intake Manifold off after disconnecting about 30 more wires/hoses than I knew existed:  And now,   Everything Intake-side is disconnected aside from that rather large engine mount, which is coming with us since I’m lowering the subframe out too.
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Dec 14, 2012 16:38
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Not much to add other than I'm following this. s2000s are one of the prettiest 2 seaters I can think of, weird that they sort of dropped off the face of the earth in the late 2000s. Hope you get it running again.
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Dec 14, 2012 16:54
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Day 3 of the rebuild, 11/9. I started off by taking out everything else in the way of the drivetrain coming down. Exhaust Manifold: (I have no idea why I took so many pictures of it)       Clutch Slave Cylinder:   Front Suspension. I planned on taking the subframe, engine, and transmission down then lifting the chassis up and sliding the drivetrain out from below.   Note the lower ball joint. It’s stuck onto the lower control arm on both sides:  Driveshaft:   Shifter:   I stopped there for the night. 11/10 was an exercise in futility. After hooking up the engine hoist:   I set about taking off the 6 huge subframe bolts. I meant to take more pictures but I was a bit pre-occupied with fighting everything possible in the engine bay. The engine/gearbox/subframe will now lower itself down about a foot and a half before the lower ball joints (Remember those guys?) bind. I need to find a way to get them separated, as hitting everything with a hammer (percussive maintenance, it’s a real thing look it up) has proven ineffective. Here’s a shot of the separation between the subframe and the frame, with the engine visible. That silver thing on the left ruining my shot is the driver’s front brake caliper, to give you some perspective:  And a final shot of the end of day 11/10. Not much has changed, though you can see the engine lowered a bit:  Who knew a silly thing like taking an engine out would prove to be so difficult.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:01
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ADINSX posted:Not much to add other than I'm following this. s2000s are one of the prettiest 2 seaters I can think of, weird that they sort of dropped off the face of the earth in the late 2000s. Thanks for the support! It's been an interesting journey so far.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:04
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We left off the last post on a low note. I’d like to begin by letting you know I never got those ball joints separated. I know I just need a puller or something but I was fed up with prying on them and figured out a better way. After much hemming and hawing (again) I decided to go a different route. Since the subframe was completely down I could actually access the impossible top bolts on the Gearbox->Engine, so I decided to take out the gearbox. This would give me ample room to pull the engine out the top after raising the subframe back up. I have to put the subframe back on anyways to roll the car out of the bay, so in essence I was just skipping a step. So, on to the pictures. First let’s take that pesky gearbox out. Still attached:  Getting separated. Nice blue clutch assembly shout out:  And we’re off:  Look at all that room:  That clutch I put in about 5k miles ago. It's causing some horrible vibrations at idle and I'm glad I can fix that problem now. Anyone who knows more about clutches feel free to weigh in on your theories. I think it's the lovely "lightweight" flywheel I put in that's causing the issues so the current plan is to resurface the old one and put it back in. Next to the old one (bad synchros  ) Now the subframe needs to go up so the car can sit on its wheels, giving me some room in the z-axis:  Again, these bolts are HUGE:  With that all sorted, up we go:      Look at all that space:  Completely free:    I wheeled the chassis out into the driveway, put the hood on, and threw a car cover over it. This is the end of day 5:  Feels good man.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:15
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Well, after I pulled the engine I set out to do some other stuff, and didn’t look back at it for a while. I finally stopped putting it off and got some stuff done on 12/1. Okay, so on to progress. I got to the house around 1PM Saturday and left at about 7, so we’ll call it 6 hours but there was a long break that will be discussed later. Apparently engine work is pretty easy when the engine isn’t surrounded by the car it powers. The first milestone was to get the engine off the hoist and onto an engine stand. Before I could do that, however, I needed to get everything off that is in the way of the stand (clutch, flywheel, pressure plate). Clutch came off easily:      The flywheel needed a little bit more persuasion:  After I loosened the flywheel bolts, I realized I needed to take the harmonic balancer off before I took the flywheel off and put the engine on the stand, else I would not have anything to keep the crankshaft from rotating. The extension randomly jutting out in the above picture was doing that job currently. Okay, whereas the flywheel is held on by 8 bolts, the harmonic balancer is only held on by one. Since it has to be perfectly balanced while rotating at 9000 RPM, it’s on there pretty tight. As in it’s the tightest bolt on the car. We’re talking over 300 ft-lbs of torque, probably closer to 400. And I need to break it loose while the engine is hanging from a chain. I am stupid:  Well that didn’t work:  Time for a beefier setup. MOMENT ARM!  That got it:  And with the harmonic balancer off:  We can take the flywheel off the other side:  And bolt the engine onto the stand:  I only had three threaded holes on the upper block, so the fourth gets a lovely makeshift dowel pin:  Engine’s weight completely on the stand now, chains from the hoist disconnected:  From there we can finally start the disassembly of the engine. This will be my command center, complete with lovely floral beach chair:  Engine Mount and Starter stripped off the block:  Gotta take the Coil-Over-Plugs off:  So I can take the pretty red valve cover off:  Note there are three cam lobes for every two valves. The bigger middle cam lobe hits the lower VTEC roller rocker system under the cam, which is usually freewheeling with its partners. More on this later. Cam guides off:  Can anyone weigh in on the condition of the cam journals? I haven't been exposed to wear on cams and can't tell how good/bad these are:  The cams just lift out. Note the cam idler gear that supplies movement to both cams from the timing chain. You also can see the VTEC system a lot better here. The fat middle roller in between each valve pair has a pneumatic piston that slides into the smaller rollers above 5800 RPM, effectively making all three rollers one rigid system. This utilizes the larger cam, increasing valve lift and duration, both of which increase airflow considerably. 150 hp immediately becomes 240 hp.  So enough talking… let’s take that off. It just lifts up with a little bit of prying:  I sort of assembled the cam system back together outside of the engine for easy storage:  And then set my sights on pulling the head. To do so I needed to take the timing chain off, which I found was no easy matter. The timing system is full of Allen Key bolts, which strip way too easily to just use regular allen keys. I learned this lesson the hard way when I took the driveshaft off for the first time and stripped 3 of the 8 bolts. Time to run to the store and grab some Allen Sockets. I drove around for about an hour visiting 3 different parts stores trying to find a set, and finally settled for some cheap AutoZone crap. This documents the first purchase for the project, a high price of $15. This is a decent place to pause, so stay tuned for the second half of 12/1's progress.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:33
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We left off a couple minutes ago with me running and grabbing a set of these: In the background you can see the idler pulley and the chain tensioner/guide already off. We’ll get there soon. First, to get to the timing system we have to take off the idler pulley and the cover:  Cake walk at this point. The bigger gear in the center is the crankshaft’s nose. It’s what the harmonic balancer was connected to and it runs both the timing chain for the cam gear (above it) and the chain for the oil pump (below it). Also note all the hex bolts everywhere. What the hell, Honda:  Let’s take those guides off so we can get enough slack in the chain to take it out:  And now for the cam idler. We can just drop this down to get enough slack to pull the chain off:  Idler and timing chain out:  Now to pop the head off. There is a very very very important sequence for taking the 10 head bolts out. If you just loosen them one by one you will warp the head and have to mill the mating surface. I don’t want to have to do this. Love this breaker bar:  Head bolts out:  Head pried up pretty easily. I was surprised:   Head gasket:   Top of the block, sans gasket:  Here’s a nice view of the state of things thus far. We’re almost done!  Turning our attention to the bottom of the motor now, it’s time to get the oil pump out of the way:  Three bolts was all it took after taking the chain tensioner out:  Now it’s time to flip the engine over and focus on the girdle. Unfortunately disassembling this thing was almost an effort in futility. This lower end is stout, which made me worried that if there were anything wrong with the main bearings it’d be severe and I’d have to get a new upper block, lower block, and crank ($3500). Well, here we go. Flipped:  After half an hour of prying I finally separated the two block pieces to find:  PERFECTLY GOOD main bearings! The groove in the center of each one is supposed to be there. I was ecstatic. This means the only thing I have to regrind are the rod bearings, and not even that much (as stated before the spin was mild)… I’m getting out of this with oversized rod bearings, a new rod, and a new rod cap. A good look at the top of the lower block/girdle and why it was so difficult to pry out. 10 DOWEL PINS…  Set the crankshaft in the lower block for easy storage:  A good look at the upper block and we’re able to peek down the cylinders to see that they’re perfectly good with no scoring. I got LUCKY:  And we’ll finish it off with a few pictures of the S2000 swap meet in the garage. It’s like a real-life exploded diagram:    From here I need to strip the block completely down and clean/inspect it. I need to send the crank in to get it reground. I need to order a new rod and end cap. I need to order new main bearings (maybe, I can honestly just reuse the old ones because they look perfect) and new oversized rod bearings. I need to order a new engine gasket set and new head bolts, main bolts, and piston rings. While the head is out I will be cleaning and inspecting it as well as replacing the valve guides and seals and resetting the valve lash to stock specification. We’re talking a like-new, 0 miles engine here for somewhere around $1000. Can’t beat that. Especially after being quoted $6500 for a 60,000 mile used one. This is where I left off on my mailing list. Since then I've taken the pistons out, sent the crank in for regrinding, and finished stripping the block. Once I get the block and head back from getting dunked I'll toss up another update.
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Dec 14, 2012 17:57
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 Good work so far. I hate opening motors. I'm also impressed with how clean everything is. You must not live up north.
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Dec 14, 2012 18:07
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mmmm. Your Honda porn pleases me it makes me want to buy my s2k a lot more.Slow is Fast posted:
Why does living up north == clean auto parts ha? EDIT I can't read. AcidRonin fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 14, 2012 |
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Dec 14, 2012 22:29
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Thanks for the writeup, as an owner of a red 2003 S2000, this made me appreciate my car a whole lot more. Honda did a really thorough job designing this car and it shows.
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Dec 14, 2012 23:53
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I wish I could afford an S2k  I'll just have to drive a Miata for now 
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Dec 15, 2012 02:16
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whiskas posted:Honda did a really thorough job designing this car and it shows. I kept thinking this the entire time I was taking it apart.
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Dec 15, 2012 03:27
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This is indeed pretty awesome. However, as far as the "wear on cams" bit...  I'm approaching 170k on the original engine in my car and the cams look brand new compared to that. I would definitely have someone at least look at them, and probably budget for either regrinding or replacement.
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Dec 15, 2012 10:01
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Lightweight flywheels will have chatter. It's worth it, though: those gear changes are so fast. Good work, mate.
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Dec 15, 2012 22:21
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some texas redneck posted:This is indeed pretty awesome. Yeah those cams don't really look all that good. You've got some wear on the bearing surface but more on the lobe itself...do you have a decent picture of the rest of the lobes and the bearing surfaces in the head?
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Dec 15, 2012 22:37
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I have a spare AP1 flywheel if you're interested.
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Dec 15, 2012 23:00
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Z3n posted:Yeah those cams don't really look all that good. You've got some wear on the bearing surface but more on the lobe itself...do you have a decent picture of the rest of the lobes and the bearing surfaces in the head? I'm headed over there today so I will take more pictures. That was the most worn bearing if I recall.
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Dec 16, 2012 17:30
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Phone posted:Lightweight flywheels will have chatter. It's worth it, though: those gear changes are so fast. Thanks. I say "lightweight" because despite being described as such, it weighs 10.75 lbs to the OE's 11. Definitely just going to regrind the original.
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Dec 16, 2012 17:32
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Jeez, my LWFW is 10.3lbs and the stock one is 20lbs. On a Miata.
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Dec 16, 2012 19:10
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Z3n posted:Yeah those cams don't really look all that good. You've got some wear on the bearing surface but more on the lobe itself...do you have a decent picture of the rest of the lobes and the bearing surfaces in the head? Here's the rest of the lobes/journals, and afterwards the bearing surfaces on the VTEC intermediate system. The top of the bearings are crossbraces and there are no actual "bearings" to pull out. I assume you just replace the cams and crossbraces or maybe they sell undersized crossbraces or something. Intake, front to back. Ignore the "nicks", they're just clutter getting on the journals while I'm handling them:     Exhaust:     Bearing surfaces circling from the front of the intake to the front of the exhaust, counterclockwise:     
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Dec 16, 2012 20:04
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Might as well do another minor update while I'm at it. I took the pistons out and stripped the block down fully, and the crank was sent out for machining a while back. I'm going to finish stripping the head when I can find a decent pair of valve spring compressors and a good way to organize all the valve components. The crank came back needing a .020 grind on the rods and just a polish on the mains! Block with pistons:  First piston out. Shiny!  Pistons out:   Picture from a week ago of the crank in a box going out for inspect/grind:  Block fully stripped:  
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Dec 16, 2012 20:12
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..and yet you got a pre-lit Christmas tree?
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Dec 16, 2012 20:15
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Viggen posted:..and yet you got a pre-lit Christmas tree? That would be pretty silly. I live in a tiny apartment downtown so my family took pity on me and let me use their garage. They are very much "take it to the dealer" folk. Question: Anyone have any good ideas for transporting the block pieces and head to/from the machine shop without damaging anything?
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Dec 16, 2012 20:26
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Adiabatic posted:Question: Anyone have any good ideas for transporting the block pieces and head to/from the machine shop without damaging anything? Just throw them in the trunk of the Mercedes.
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Dec 16, 2012 20:33
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EVERYWHERE 
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Won't fit, what with all the cash in there.
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Dec 16, 2012 20:42
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Are you going to be doing any power mods while its all apart? Looks like its staying pretty much stock, I would be tempted to have some fun while it was out.
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Dec 17, 2012 01:15
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Adiabatic posted:Won't fit, what with all the cash in there. I wasn't entirely joking... what are your challenges with moving the block/head?
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Dec 17, 2012 02:38
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Well, the crossbraces are actually machined as one piece to the head. Those have some weird discoloration and some wear but if you cant detect any knicks when you run a nail across them they're probably fine...but I'd get someone experienced with S2000s to verify. Some vehicles are hard on cams and that sort of wear can be normal, others it's a sign of an oiling issue. I'd transport the block wrapped in a towel and/or bubble wrap around it.
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Dec 17, 2012 03:26
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meatpimp posted:I wasn't entirely joking... what are your challenges with moving the block/head? Something to the tune of "folks wont let me put engine parts in their car because even though I cleaned them, we all know engine parts are dirty and grimy, etc etc"
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Dec 17, 2012 04:00
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KKKLIP ART posted:Something to the tune of "folks wont let me put engine parts in their car because even though I cleaned them, we all know engine parts are dirty and grimy, etc etc" Mostly this. I picked up a '93 civic for a daily and they should be able to fit in that though. Just wondering if towels would do it. Seems entirely too easy.
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Dec 17, 2012 05:37
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mutt2jeff posted:Are you going to be doing any power mods while its all apart? Looks like its staying pretty much stock, I would be tempted to have some fun while it was out. Bringing it back to stock 0 mile status and selling it. I had it on craigslist as a feeler just before this happened. Automotive Sanity :\ Adiabatic fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Dec 17, 2012 |
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Dec 17, 2012 05:38
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Saran Wrap?
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Dec 17, 2012 06:25
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Its kind of amazing that you have enough technical know how and work ethic to tear an engine down and rebuild it but when it came to oil changes you didnt do them (im lazy in that same way for maintenance items, but if I threw a rod i would just be financially destroyed pretty much).
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Dec 17, 2012 10:09
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meatpimp posted:I wasn't entirely joking... Neither was he. Phone posted:Jeez, my LWFW is 10.3lbs and the stock one is 20lbs. On a Miata. The stock flywheel on a Miata is 20lbs?? that seems almost unbelievable given how skinny the whole car is. AcidRonin fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Dec 17, 2012 |
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Dec 17, 2012 15:49
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coolskillrex remix posted:Its kind of amazing that you have enough technical know how and work ethic to tear an engine down and rebuild it but when it came to oil changes you didnt do them (im lazy in that same way for maintenance items, but if I threw a rod i would just be financially destroyed pretty much).
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Dec 20, 2012 06:18
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Hog Obituary posted:It seems to me that he didn't skip oil changes; just neglected to check the oil level and told himself that it'd probably be fine until the next oil change. VTEC is still actuated by oil pressure so would it not have shown signs of a serious oil deficiency that way? Still, gotta love the pictures of seeing my old car's motor torn down. I never had to get into it like that, but always wanted to see it all torn down out of curiosity.
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Dec 20, 2012 19:19
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Unless the OP relives the fast and furious everyday, you can drive an S2000 under 6000rpm without touching VTEC at all. It pretty much drives like a cramped, stiffly sprung civic. If anyone says their S2000 doesn't burn oil it's because they're either never touching VTEC, or they're lying. Basically any DOHC VTEC engine that Honda makes will burn a little bit of oil while in VTEC. In winter when I don't dare go over 4000rpm, I won't burn a drop of oil, but in summer when I'm hitting VTEC to goto the grocery store, pull into my garage, or parallel park, then I have to check my oil every time I fill up my gas tank.
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Dec 21, 2012 00:54
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whiskas posted:Unless the OP relives the fast and furious everyday, you can drive an S2000 under 6000rpm without touching VTEC at all. It pretty much drives like a cramped, stiffly sprung civic. I live in the southland so I pretty much lived in VTEC the whole time I owned the car. A quart of oil was a standard passenger in my trunk and it was often replaced. I tried to drive it and stay under 6k often, but I had miserable self control with it. I eventually sold it because my commute to work was 24 miles of straight, flat, 5mph misery and no back seat for my unborn child.
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Dec 21, 2012 14:36
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I heard the rod knock after exiting an onramp, in VTEC, using as much of my lovely Potenza RE960AS Pole Positions as I could. Basically I am stupid.
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Dec 22, 2012 13:48
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