Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

euphronius posted:

He didn’t abandon him. He was going to meet him at Bree.

Yeah the idea was to get Frodo out of the Shire all casual-like so that any spies would be less likely to notice that something was afoot

# ¿ Dec 16, 2020 19:16

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 22:01

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Tom Bombadil exists specifically to confound people who do things like argue about what the most powerful sword in middle earth is

# ¿ Dec 17, 2020 18:25

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

To come up with "true" divisions and classifications for every being in Tolkein is uninteresting and overall impossible because Tolkein's works aren't internally consistent or coherent. He was just a dude who made some stories, and the fact of his world is simply the text that's on the page. There's no statement of what Bombadil "really" is, and so the truth of the situation is that he's ambiguous.

Besides that type of reading is far less interesting that reflecting on what he symbolizes from a storytelling perspective. I see him personifying the indifference of the natural world to the mechanisms of the great and the powerful. Sometimes that natural world can delight and provide. It can even be musical and playful. In other cases it can threaten and menace. But it doesn't give a poo poo about its immediate continued existance, which extends far beyond the horizons of memory, myth, and legend. You can't rely on it to help you or your cause, even if your interests are aligned, because it will just go back to being.

This is really just on a moment's reflection anyway.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2020 19:34

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

In the silmarillion ungoliant is specifically introduced as being some hateful spirit coming from the void outside of the world. I'll dig up a direct quotation when I'm not phone posting if you want.

# ¿ Dec 18, 2020 01:54

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

I quite liked Kay's Sarantine Mosaic duology.

The Fionavar ones... Yeah. I'd only recommend them to someone who really really needs to read yet another high fantasy dark lord story

# ¿ Dec 18, 2020 15:22

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

There are tons of good fantasy books but the problem is the conflation between swords and sorcery pseudo-medieval high fantasy and fantasy as a genre.

In addition to other suggestions above, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell is a great fantasy novel that's nothing like Lord of the Rings. Gene Wolfe, Kelly Link, Ursula Le Guin, and Ted Chiang have written tons of great fantasy stories but they also look like sci fi stories.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2020 01:27

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Might call Frodo invoking the name "Elbereth" something of a religious moment.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2020 23:02

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Gildor is an allegorical representative of something here but my brain isn't caffeinated enough to put it together. He's like a pundit who cares enough about the war to encourage other people to take risks for it but not enough to do anything real to help.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2020 16:23

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Hasselblad posted:

Kind of brings up the question of Sauron being destroyed when the ring was destroyed as well to some extent. He existed before the ring, he was powerful without the ring once he lost it, powerful enough to raise armies, hold Barad Dur together by apparent force of will... did the ring really hold that much of his essence that he was utterly poofed once the ring was melted down?

Would Galadriel, Elrond and such be destroyed similarly if their rings were destroyed?

For the latter, they didn't literally pour their souls into those rings. The One Ring was made with dark magics and was personal to Sauron - the rest were a bit different.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2020 05:51

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

NGL I think it's a neat aesthetic, and it's actually pretty cool when the animated characters interact with the filmed characters in that clip. My criticism is that he overrused it. The surreal filter should have been used exclusively for the Nazgul and that's it.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2021 15:33

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Alhazred posted:

I've been reading the acoup blog who asserts that Saruman, unlike Sauron, just doesn't know how that plan a military campaign and that's why he loses.

I found that reading of Saruman to be pretty convincing - that he's a deluded megalomaniac who is a cargo cult Dark Lord maps well onto the character, both from the top down, and from the ACOUP evidence up, especially when it's put beside the reading of the similar factors in the siege of Minas Tirith (Sauron doesn't make the same kinds of dumb tactical, strategic, and operational errors).

# ¿ Jan 18, 2021 19:44

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

euphronius posted:

He�s not really cargo cult. He does make rings and ... breed orcs and stuff. He�s knows what he�s doing. He just gets outmaneuvered by the good guys.

Trapping Gandalf was a master stroke that almost worked !

Have you read the articles in question? They identify a lot of subtle but silly errors that Saruman makes which show that he thinks that visible things like an imposing tower and ring lore and breeding orcs and stuff makes for a successful dark lord (hence my term "cargo cult"), but that he has nothing beyond a surface understanding of how to organize an army or win a war.

The best thing about of the articles in question is that they're really long and detailed

# ¿ Jan 18, 2021 19:55

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

sweet geek swag posted:

This ignores Weathertop. They have the hobbits there at their mercy, with only Aragorn to protect them. They know these hobbits have what they are seeking. They're in the wild, with no witnesses. There is no reason to let them go unless they are actually incapable of capturing or killing them. There is clearly some limit to their power here. Aragorn theorizes that it has to do with the fact that there were only five of them, and he's probably right. The Nine, all together, are far more terrifying and powerful.

A couple of points as well. They don't charge Glorfindel, they are about to leave the river before it overwhelms them, but then they see Glorfindel and they flee him. Into the river. Where they are destroyed (temporarily of course). During the battle at Minas Tirith they mostly spread terror and attack fleeing opponents. Even Theoden is mostly undone by the knights of his house fleeing him, and then he is crushed under his own horse.

There are two times when he shows uncertainty during the battle. The first, when he confronts Gandalf, who defies him. Importantly Gand7alf does not use any magic here, not really. His defiance is enough to send the Witch King packing. The second time is when Eowyn defies him and kills his mount. This isn't enough to send him packing, but if he was unnerved by her this would be the time to break out the big guns. But he doesn't. He just attacks her with his mace. It isn't her revelation that she is a woman that unnerved him. It was the fact that somehow she managed to defy him.

I think the way to look at the Nazgul is this: They're empty. That emptiness is formless, and only can take form when shaped by someone else. So when they are feared, that fear gives form and power to their emptiness. But if they are defied, they lose all that. So if the Witch King is in his tower, surrounded by his terrified minions who believe him to be a powerful sorcerer, he is a powerful sorcerer. If he is leading an army, he is a powerful general.

When Eowyn defies him, she's still scared of him. So he is still a fearsome warrior. But because she has defied him, that is all he is. There is a limit to her fear, so there is a limit to his power. Similarly, when spying in the Shire and Bree, the Nazgul are only ever able to be that nameless thing in the night. There is no expectation of what the Nazgul could be, so their power is limited.

And this actually explains a question I had earlier. I had wondered why Gildor hadn't given Frodo a clearer warning. And this could be the reason. If Frodo expected the ringwraiths to be something, they would have used his fear to become that. Which means that Gildor was absolutely correct to not give Frodo something to fixate on.

This seems mostly internally consistent but what it leaves out is the very first encounter between the Hobbits and the Nazgul, where they just encounter a Black Rider and they have no idea who or what this person is, but it's still threatening - would you say that's the hobbits just interpreting the "black robes black horse = scary" bit?

# ¿ Jan 19, 2021 20:21

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Another thing I like about this reading of the Nazgul, and the whole Sauron's power question, and the mysteries of the capabilities of various characters is that it brings the stories back down to Earth, so to speak. Sauron doesn't have to be a powerful magician or foe in combat - he has extended powers, sure, but he's dangerous because he has tactics, strategy, logicstics, and reconnaissance - some magical, some technical. He also has engineering, propaganda, and political mechanisms. It's those things, combined with ill intent, that make him a danger to the world.

Sauruman has some of these without others, and he's ineffective. Galadriel has some of these but without others, and she's ineffective. Likewise Elrond, and the Balrog.

I can't actually think of a single place in the books where Sauron unambiguously uses a magic power. Even the "Eye of Sauron" has a technical explanation within the internal logic of the setting.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2021 02:30

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Gothmog is the name of the commander of the orcs during Pellinor Fields.

Khamul is the only other name given to a ringwraith in the books. He's in charge of Dol Guldur for a while in the Third Age, but I can't remember the chronology. I'm 99% sure this is mentioned in the ROTK appendix.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2021 15:00

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

https://johngarth.wordpress.com/2021/01/22/ursula-le-guin-the-language-of-earthsea-and-tolkien/

that's fun

# ¿ Jan 24, 2021 16:14

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

What I generally tell people who are new to Lord of the Rings is to keep in mind that Tolkien really isn't trying to write a "fantasy novel" in the modern sense. He's just got a particular artistic vision he wants to get onto the page, something that took hold in his mind while he was an overeducated Catholic kid going quietly crazy in a trench at the Somme and then grew and grew and grew until it was a whole world. Try to read it as its own thing, as if you'd never heard of an orc or a dwarf before. Think of it as a weird piece of outsider art you've happened across, not something mainstream and polished.

The scene you're at is the heavy lore dump for the whole book. It's fine to just *beep* over it if you want, and the same for other parts that aren't working for you. I think i'd probably read the Lord of the Rings ten times before I even *tried* to read most of the songs. Just *boop* ahead to the next part and keep going.

I think the first time that I read the songs was after I had learned to read Middle English

# ¿ Jan 26, 2021 04:15

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

If you can even stand to read the Torah or the Odyssey or the Aeneid or Boewulf, you'll eat up The Silmarillion like my dog eats stolen bread. If that sounds like boring nerd poo poo don't waste your money.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2021 17:44

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

The old Hobbit cartoon is the superior movie and they should have just done a live action remake from the same script if they wanted a new movie.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2021 19:24

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

I suspect that lots of people in this argument don't have a clear sense of what "objective" means.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2021 16:21

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

you're hurting me

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 17:47

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Besides Alan Cumming should play literally every role

# ¿ Feb 12, 2021 17:53

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Action George posted:

Thank you for posting that. I've never heard of it before, and reading it literally brought a tear to my eye.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2021 15:16

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Beleriand is Doggerland

# ¿ Feb 17, 2021 21:20

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Did interest in Tolkien just end forever two weeks ago?

# ¿ Mar 1, 2021 20:37

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Data Graham posted:

A friend of mine messaged me with a question that he said my "unique outlook might be useful for"

I told him that having no idea what MTG was about, I had sort of assumed they did branded stuff like that all the time, but apparently no, they only just started last year. Would I be right in guessing then that this is the estate cashing in now that Christopher is gone?

yeah that's cash

it makes me feel bad

# ¿ Mar 1, 2021 21:10

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Imagined posted:

A pro-click is the archive of cards for the old Decipher LOTR CCG. https://lotrtcgwiki.com/wiki/start

I liked that game :3

# ¿ Mar 1, 2021 22:40

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

There was also a Middle Earth TCG/LCG that was out and about in the mid 90s and it had characters from the Silmarillion, including the Valar. I only encountered it once, and didn't get to play it, so I can't remember any more details.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2021 23:46

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

adhuin posted:

It was great in a very unbalanced and experimental kind of way. It's was contemporary with the early Magic, so there was no exact blueprint on how to make a ccg yet.
Players controlled fellowship led by one of the 5 wizards that travelled across the map of middle-earth. Goal was to gather allies and equipment to defeat the Sauron. Technically there was a win condition for 'dunking' the One ring at the Mount Doom, but that was mostly a novelty gimmick deck.
Half your deck was bad guy cards and other half was good guy cards. Playing good guy cards gave resources for the opponent to play their bad guys, like Orcs, Drakes and corruption, but also let you draw more cards at the end of the turn to fill your hand.
There was also dice used to randomize combat results and whether your dudes succumbed to corruption.
First few sets were pretty clear, but it got way complicated with adding 'fallen Wizards' faction, Balrog-faction and Nazgul-faction, with their own mechanics.

Are you sure? Other than the "5 wizards" part that sounds like the gameplay of the Decipher one which I definitely played the poo poo out of. What's the actual name of the early 90s one?

# ¿ Mar 2, 2021 15:42

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

adhuin posted:

Middle earth the Wizard (METW) has drawn paintings and was made by ICE that also published rpgs in the 90:s

Decipher one has pictures from the movies. The basic concept is same, except you are escorting Frodo and the One ring through 9 pre-chosen sites. It is much more streamlined and polished game.
In METW traveling is freeform. You can go to Recruit Blue mountain Dwarves faction at the blue mountains or go to the lonely mountain to search for the Arkenstone. You can even have party split up to travel to different locations.

yeah now that I can google it it's definitely the cards I remember. Neato.

I always thought that the shadow pool mechanic from the Decipher one (and from METW, I guess) is one of the best and most balanced mechanics from any game I've played, especially as it interacts with hand management. It creates so many decisions that always feel meaningful.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2021 22:59

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

The elves probably get all of their food from like tree nuts and wild mushrooms and foraging and poo poo.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2021 16:39

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Dwarves fish underground like Smeagol

# ¿ Mar 3, 2021 17:50

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

sweet geek swag posted:

Tolkien is very different from other fantasy writers in this respect. The true nature of Gandalf, for example, would be a plot point in another book. In LOTR it is never actually confirmed and without the larger context of the Silmarillion it is basically impossible to understand. He's a wizard who does wizard things at first, but as the story goes on you realize that no, he's more than that, but ultimately the main story never hinges on Gandalf's power, so there is no real plot reason you'd need to understand it. Pretty much all the lore is like this, whereas in most modern fantasy most lore is plot relevant.

This is why Tolkien's stuff is so engaging imo - and where so much fantasy fails. He gives all of these glimpses at these extensive structures of history and metaphysics but they're all roads that run over the horizon in different directions, down paths that the story doesn't follow, so we can only imagine where that road leads. That's why there are hundreds of thousands of hours of youtube fan theories about this stuff.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2021 15:35

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

I can say with certainty that the most psychotic option is #3, namely creating a youtube channel containing thousands of hours of content wherein you argue with other youtube channels about the lore and canon of those papers.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2021 15:09

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Omnomnomnivore posted:

Soviet TV version of Lord of the Rings rediscovered after 30 years

First episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vquKyNdgH3s

They left Tom Bomabdil in! Anyone here understand Russian?

# ¿ Apr 5, 2021 16:23

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

skasion posted:

Saruman was betraying his specific responsibility. The gods never gave Sauron a mission to save the world from domination by dark sorcery, which he then did exactly the opposite of. They just kind of wrongly assumed he wouldn�t sell them out to Melkor. That�s why they don�t go cracking the planet open to stop him after the first age is over. They basically figured him for a victim of Melkor but didn�t understand how badly his relationship with Melkor had messed him up.

Living prolongedly in Middle-earth seems to be kind of bad for Ainur. Which I guess makes sense when you consider that the planet has been irreversibly spiritually polluted by Morgoth

This conversation is bringing Paradise Lost to mind for me, wherein Satan convinces the fallen angels (and himself) that after they've rebelled once that there's no going back, that God will never forgive them, and so that they need to dig in and keep fighting (even though God keeps giving them tons of chances to repent).

I think that Melkor and the Ainur map onto that, if only implicitly: Melkor's pride and envy become malice and cruelty, and he initially seduces the Ainur into self-destructive disobedience, and then once Morgoth is gone, Sauron has been fighting for so long that he acts as if there's no other path.

# ¿ Apr 11, 2021 00:51

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

Pham Nuwen posted:

Bunch of browcels in here complaining that they'll never get with any lissome elf-maids if their brow isn't sufficiently fair...

Anyway I realized the other day that "Peregrin" means "wandering", and that Merry and Peregrin initially considered their journey just a fun ramble... a merry peregrin, if you will.

I heard this on an etymology podcast in the last day or two: it's basically "crosses" + "acres" and it's closely cognate with "Pilgrim."

Now what's the etymology of "Meriadoc"....

# ¿ Apr 14, 2021 15:30

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

euphronius posted:

Doing three at once was a major cost savings and as I mentioned �exotic� New Zealand does a lot of work. I don�t think the actors were expensive either as no one was a huge star

Cate Blanchett, Elijah Wood, and Liv Tyler were the biggest names. I guess Ian McKellen was just breaking through into A-list status, as he was cast for X-Men and LOTR at about the same time. After that uh Sean Astin, Hugo Weaving and John Rhys-Davies were known quantities too, mostly as "oh well it's that guy from Indiana Jones and Sliders ok" kinda thing.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2021 14:13

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

90 minutes of it would take place while he was dying

# ¿ Jun 6, 2021 03:48

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 22:01

CommonShore: Jun 6, 2014; A true renaissance man

The ring is fully sentient and sapient, with full powers of logic and reason. The only reason that it stayed under the misty mountains for so long is that it was out of gas.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2021 14:03

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