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John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Shadowmorn posted:

Yes that patch, if you refer to the one on http://aow2.heavengames.com/ is good, admittedly its been years and years since i last played SM properly with it.

Steam still guns with 1.30.0.2616, so it might be worth getting if anyone's picked up the game again like i have! Kind of torn between AOW and SM 'tho.

You definitely need the unofficial patch from there but it's a great addition to Shadow Magic in general.

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John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
What do you class as 'low' resistance? I've been sort of focusing on abilities with only the occasional stat boost when levelling up heroes.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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Gerblyn posted:

Less than 10. This is why Orcs can be so easy to kill if you have the right units. For a "strong" unit, you want resistance 12+ if you can get it.

Okay that makes sense and is more or less what I thought. My current approach is fine then.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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There's only one thing really hampering my enjoyment of the game - I get consistent worsening FPS drops in battles as they go on. They start off just fine but the framerate deteriorates further and further the longer a battle lasts, going down to 3-4 fps by the end of particularly long sieges. Framerate resets to normal once the battle is over. Seems like a memory leak issue but I'm assuming this has been noted already - any word on fixes for this kind of thing?

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Gerblyn posted:

The randomized nature of the skillbook makes that a hard thing to achieve. If a game has a tech tree then it's easy to fill it with filler crap (research this for +5% shields on all units!) but with our skillbook, we can't have too many things like that. An unlucky player would get an endless parade of +5 hitpoints, and +6% production in cities, while a lucky player would get fireballs and earthquake. So when we add new things, they have to be genuinely useful, which means they need to be relatively powerful, which makes them hard to balance and things.

I think in expansions we wil add new skills to each class (at least I hope we will), but for now we need to deal with the flat nature of the research. I can do end game research in 2-3 turns with a midgame empire, where it should be 10-15 turns for a midgame empire.

Maybe just try increasing knowledge requirements for higher-tier spells significantly. I dunno I'm not a game designer but that would seem to be the best option right?

Ideally I'd just want more stuff to research but that's just greediness as a player and I know it's a pretty involved process adding new stuff like that.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Incidentally I gave multiplayer a try last night for the first time with three friends and even though we've barely got started with it, it runs smooth as anything and is lovely to play. The random map facility is great for this kind of thing, especially since two of them are pretty new and it was funny to laugh about their ineptitude in battles (and subsequent comeuppance for us veterans when we had armies almost wipe against independents was also funny).

Big thumbs up on the game so far. If there is going to be an expansion of any sort, at this rate I'll probably get it (especially if it adds a lot more Stuff. Stuff is good).

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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The most impressive spell I've seen in action so far has been Vengeful Vines. Seeing the camera zoom out and then vines attack every wall on the map is both cool and useful.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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Yeah there's actually a reason to build fortresses now, it's excellent.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Gerblyn posted:

That's a nice idea actually. In principle we could move some things to XML config files, I think the main problem with that is that we've promized Modding support and a lot of people might see it as a huge cop out... I'll make a note of it though.

In other news, I just sat down with a designer and we nerfed the living poo poo out of research. Goblin scientists are hiding in their mud hovels weeping bitter tears at the research costs I just typed into an Excel spreadsheet. Assuming it doesn't break horribly, research will be very different in the next patch. As an indicator, the amount of research needed to complete everything has been increased by ~70-80%.

Is this affecting all research then, even the early ones? Because early game research taking 5 turns for stuff feels fine at the moment, it's that top-level things research too quickly that's the problem. Or at least that's how it feels to me.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
It would be nice if the game threw your custom-designed leaders into the random hero pool, just so that the same default names don't keep popping up. Wouldn't take too much coding to make it happen, I think, and it'd be a cool little touch.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Woozy posted:

It does?

Oh, does it? I hadn't noticed it happening at all.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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Tomn posted:

Give humans the unique ability to settle floating cities made up of boats lashed together. Nautilus Pirates, ho!

Floating and moving cities made of ships.

Basically I just want The Scar.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Taear posted:

Can I summon an Avanc?

Yep. Tier 4 sorcerer spell, 60 mana per turn upkeep cost.

Maaaan now I just want a Bas-Lag AOW, in full.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I would love to see non-Archon undead in an expansion.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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This big patch sounds excellent. Great job Triumph.

And yeah, the lack of Frostlings and Undead feels lack a noticeable gap. I liked the polar-opposite factions in AOW (like Frostlings/Draconians) and it'd be nice if a bit of that was put back in with an expansion.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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I kind of feel like new classes should maybe have some alignment-related stuff. Like necromancer would tend towards evil naturally, and you could have a naturally good class too - would need to be a bit more imaginative than most fantasy settings' approach to 'good', since theocrat is largely alignment-independent.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Gerblyn posted:

I have a task to stop disjuncting on cities under the fog of war, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. There are some non-AI issues as well, like, if I see a city, and start disjuncting a spell on it, what happens if I lose sight on the city before the disjunct has finished casting? There are 3 options:

1) Let the disjunct cast (i.e. you only need sight on the city to start casting disjunct, not finish casting it).
2) Auto-cancel the disjunct when you lose vision
3) Inform the player that they have no sight on the target, and block them casting the spell until they get it back

Number 1 is by far the easiest for everyone involved, except the person who owns the city. But if we do that, I'm worried people will complain that a spell got disjuncted on their city when they couldn't find a unit that was watching it, since the original spotting unit left a few turns before. Still my favored option though.

Number 1 seems best. For all players know it's a concealed unit watching them anyway.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I really like the Halflings in this DLC, which surprises me because I hated them in AOW1 and 2. The roster is nicely judged, with interesting and fun units, and they just work a lot better somehow than in previous games.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Wolpertinger posted:

Yeah.. I'm partway through the second campaign mission now, and somehow I've found myself pretty much just spamming a million halfling adventurers, as they're a surprisingly powerful archer with a whole lot of really good slayers that let them oftentimes slay even tier 4 enemies with minimal casualties if used right (which more often than not have the 'monster' tag), and a 6stack in a stone walled city can defend against a multiple-stack army in many cases. My main issue is wallbusting as eagle riders take a lot of work to get going, so I overrely on heroes to slam down the doors, murder a bunch of people, and die while the rest of my units clean up whatever's left, with all the heroes popping back up after because of resurgence. I abused hero resurgence and the party golems so much that my strategy wouldn't work in random maps.

Jester is a very good unit, but I find myself loathe to ever make pony riders/farmers/nightwatch, as they involve melee with a fragile halfling, which in turns makes jesters not very useful for me, as dazzling an enemy doesn't do anything to help out adventurer spam and they seem more fragile and prone to friendly fire than adventurers to be used as your main ranged attacker. However, those party golems were godlike and I wish I could make more of them - High armored jesters with heals, powerful melee and wallsmashing practically won the map for me as I carefully kept them alive all throughout.

I do feel like I should give their other units more of a try, as i'm sure pony riders and farmers can be used with a bit of work, as repeatedly stabbing an enemy that can't retaliate could probably allow them to kill unusually dangerous things - I didn't try enough of the warlord halfling stuff, too - Once I got halfling mounted archers producable 1/turn in a city with a bonus to mounted units structure and bonus to archers structure, I pretty much just pumped out shittons of those.

I haven't made heavy use of Farmers yet but Nightwatch can be excellent and punch well above their weight. Since they get Backstab with veterancy, if you can pair them off with a semi-reliably disable like Sorcerer Apprentice stuns or Archdruid Shaman entangles, they can just get massive backstab damage all day since any direction of attack counts as flanking.

The urban concealment is a neat trick too. I like them a lot more than most tier 1 infantry.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Goblin Theocrat is one of my favourite combinations just for how ludicrous it is and also because the bonuses go really well together.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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I quite like the idea of Necromancers maybe having a city enchantment that slowly turns the city undead and lets you hire undead units from it. That would allow you to maintain a mixed living/dead empire although maybe there could be morale penalties for most living units in a Necromancer's empire, something like that.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I like the theory behind the slightly unpredictable research but its implementation means that you can end up getting some really good early-game skills very late in the day - like a recent Warlord game where I only got the option to research the population growth boost about 150 turns in.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I like that the races aren't alignment-locked now. I've run evil High Elves and the most pure-good goblins possible. It's fun.

It would be nice to find a way to make alignment matter though.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Splicer posted:

A bit less than an hour ago some dwarves and a steam tank with a green flag over their heads wandered out of the fog of war. I sent a guy up to them and they joined me for ~800 gold.

Aye I saw a party of friendly nagas in my most recent game, too. Didn't have the cash though - they wanted 1100 gold - so I just murdered them. Oh well.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Lovely to see some more Goblin love with the Butcher unit. Looks excellent.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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What's the consensus on tier 1 sword units, then? For my money I really like making use of Halfling Nightwatch and Orc Greatswords.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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Archons are very weird, but I had a fun game as an evil High Elf Sorceror where I got an undead Archon dwelling and managed to rush a Titan onto the field - it was the first T4 unit out and got the associated Empire Quest perk, so it was basically unkillable and incredibly strong.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I've been playing a bit as a Halfling sorcerer today (although also making heavy use of Draconian units since I started almost entirely surrounded by volcanic terrain), putting madmac's guides to good use. Absolutely loving it; sorcerer has clicked like never before. Age of Magic is ludicrously good and Chaos Rift is one of the coolest spells to use for sure.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I think Warlord and Sorcerer are the easiest classes to play because they go all-in on their specific class gimmick and make it obvious how the player should make use of them. This doesn't mean other classes aren't good, though; they just require a bit more finesse.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Do we have any idea of a release date for the next expansion yet? Even a general one?

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Carnalfex posted:

If I could add custom leaders to the list of hireable sidekick heroes I would probably spend half my time in the game just playing with the character creator.

Yeah I'd love it if the game just added custom leaders in as hireable heroes the same way it puts them into the pool of leaders for the AI to pick from. We'd be very grateful, Gerblyn, if you were to put a word in an ear or two and make this happen.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Once your apprentices can stun with ranged attacks they're great on siege defences.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Gerblyn posted:

I don't think so, no.

It doesn't. :( I took baby reed serpents right through to king reed serpents today and didn't get it until I actually summoned a king reed serpent using Summon Gargantuan Animal.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

ninjewtsu posted:

Both quality and quantity are really good here. Units a tier up can absolutely tear right on through lower tier units (tier 3 vs tier 4 is the exception in not being a total curbstomp), but at the same time with flanking abuse a mob of tier 1s can totally take down a tier 4.

That said, within the same tier, there's not a ton within a tier that can be done to give any kind of massive boost. Are there any units in particular you're having trouble with? Stuff like rank ups can give a decent edge, but shouldn't be totally overpowering like you make it sound.

If you want good guides the stuff madmac wrote for the thread is really good and I believe it's all linked to from the op. I dunno if he ever wrote up a good general play guide or anything, and I don't know of any written by anyone else either.

madmac's guides are fantastic and I usually give them a quick go-over whenever starting a new game. Would be nice if they got updated once the expansion is out though - for instance the Arch Druid one says orcs are a bad fit for it, whereas they really aren't now.

If you have the time and all, I realise making demands is bad form.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

madmac posted:

I can't say I'm not tempted to redo them, but it's a lot of work for not much gain in most cases. The Sorcerer for example has barely changed, and even a class like Druid with a decent changelog just boils down to "Most of the bad options are at least solid now".

That's understandable for sure!

Good post on experience there too. I think Champion veterancy is one of my favourite things that's been added to the game; I absolutely love having champion 4 halfling adventurers or something, punching way above their weight against tier IV monsters.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
I've never really got into Draconians - made use of them as a secondary race in my empire, but never as the main one. Any particularly good combinations you'd recommend?

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE

Fluffy Tail posted:

Lots of units have blight resistance, and their damage without that is quite low. Golems in particular really make their day miserable.

I think Razorbows are the worst archer, I just cannot get them to work, and the First Strike promotion at gold is plain weird on an archer, even an orc one.

God help you if you come up against undead with your swarm-darter-reliant army, too.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Hmm, Apprentices now having floating instead of invisibility at gold veterancy. That's a fairly significant change - I guess it's a much better upgrade for singleplayer, since the AI doesn't really care about invis anyway, but potentially less good for multiplayer? Although more mobility never hurts anyway.

madmac posted:

Draconians are really good. For basically any class they give you tons of fire damage, (which is hard to get from classes, actually) good healing, and strong flyers. They're kind of meh for Dreads because they already have fire damage and Draconians aren't armored, but for most classes they're deceptively good.

Draconian Rogue is ace because Rogue doesn't get any healing normally, your Assassins have improved climb, your Flyers get backstab, Your Succubi get better melee damage, and Draconic Ancestory is still an amazing buff. Plus fire damage all over the place combined with blight and cold you get naturally means lot of options.

Draconian Warlord is also good because again, you've got lots of healing on a class that has nada, and lots of fire damage to get around physical protection that's normally the bane of your existance. Main downside is just not having any really strong racial Cav units to buff though you do get Fire Manticores now.

Draconian Druid also works really well. Druid is stuck with physical and blight damage, so the splash of fire damage is really helpful. Plus you can run around with mega-buffed flamers and the only Shaman who gets two types of ranged damage.

Draconian Sorc is good for lots of reasons. It's hard to go wrong with Mass Elders or firebomb Apprentices and you've got flyers to keep up with your summons.

Captain Oblivious posted:

Draconian Rogue is awesome. Evolve some Scoundrels pronto and be flinging around fire, ice, and Blight damage galore. Draconian Rogues are really good at having a ton of damage channels.

This sounds really good. Draconian Rogue especially, that lack of healing really screws with my usual early-game play.

John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

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And I guess if you want to do concealment shenanigans one of the sorcerer hero upgrades is to make the entire stack invisible, right? Or have invisible-in-domain spells. Makes sense, then.

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John Charity Spring
Nov 4, 2009

SCREEEEE
Rime Fire is so loving nasty. Clearing out haunted boneyards or tombs can be a nightmare at times now.

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