|
Legitimize Robert and give him Jerusalem Keep Valencia and focus on Spain
|
#
?
May 4, 2013 18:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:08 |
|
|
I Love Annie May posted:Actually I wanted Robert to hang around hoping to make him the successor to the Kingdom of Sicily, then I saw those "ambitious" and "deceitful" traits and realized it's a miracle he didn't assassinate Richard already. I fail to see the problem here?
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2013 18:16
|
|
|
Legitimise Robert and grant him Jerusalem. His talents are obvious and should be rewarded, and it is to be hoped that his mother's family can prepare him to rule effectively in this foreign land. If our king should die before his time and Robert inherits, we will gain both a talented ruler and the Holy Land itself - an acceptable trade for whatever upset a bastard on the throne may cause. As for our western policy, give our Spanish lands to Castille so that we can focus our efforts elsewhere. Continuing to hold those provinces will lead to conflict with our relatives in Castille sooner or later, whereas handing them over will assure d-Hauteville dominance across the known world!
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2013 20:25
|
|
|
YF-23 posted:Robert is a highly capable man, and though his mother is not of noble birth, he's a Hauteville, in name and in skill. He must be legitimised. I agree with all the points raised herein.
|
|
#
?
May 4, 2013 23:15
|
|
|
Legitimize Robert and give him Jerusalem. You should keep Spain but there's no real need to focus 100% of our efforts over there. If you have an opportunity you can take the rest of Aragon but the rest of Spain is probably beyond our reach right now. Holding on to territory in Aragon should not cause any conflicts with Castille, and eventually we could spin off a d'Hauteville Aragon maybe. Tunis would be a pretty easy and logical expansion direction right now, too.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 02:28
|
|
|
Don't legitimize, give him Jerusalem but keep it in the family name
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 02:56
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:You should keep Spain but there's no real need to focus 100% of our efforts over there. If you have an opportunity you can take the rest of Aragon but the rest of Spain is probably beyond our reach right now. Holding on to territory in Aragon should not cause any conflicts with Castille, and eventually we could spin off a d'Hauteville Aragon maybe. Tunis would be a pretty easy and logical expansion direction right now, too. The idea is that maintaining the Spanish holdings and expanding into North Africa are mutually exclusive, due to the resources necessary to accomplish both. Of course in game terms it's not actually necessary, but the point in this case is to limit myself to avoid exponential expansion - it will be either Spain or North Africa (for now), not both.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 04:40
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:This is what I will do if Robert is sent to Jerusalem without being legitimized (which is a perfectly valid vote, by the way - it would mean that he is far away from Sicily and not in line for the throne, which is exactly what his enemies at court would want). There are plenty of distant cousins who could marry him and keep Jerusalem as part of the dynasty. Huh, I didn't realise this was a possibility. Then amending my vote to this option: marry Robert the Bastard to a legitimate lady of the family and make them king and queen of Jerusalem. For Spain, still on keeping it for Abelard until he is a man grown.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 06:16
|
|
|
AJ_Impy posted:Legitimize Robert and send him to Jerusalem, they will need a man strong in battle, blood will tell, and it is his mother's homeland. Should he fall defending it from the heathen, then so be it. This
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 07:19
|
|
|
Don't legitimize Robert. Matrilineally marry him to another d'Hauteville. Give him the Kingdom of Jerusalem.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 07:38
|
|
|
Don't legitimise Robert. His high stats are God's punishment for siring a bastard. Keep Jerusalem under direct rule. It's God's kingdom, not yours. It goes where he puts it. Keep Spain. God gave us Spain and only God should take it away.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 09:53
|
|
|
Robert is the legit King of Jerusalem. gently caress Spain.
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 09:57
|
|
|
Trouble Man posted:Don't legitimise Robert. His high stats are God's punishment for siring a bastard. Well then maybe we should be gifting Jerusalem to the Papal States. 
|
|
#
?
May 5, 2013 10:06
|
|
|
Don't legitimize Robert, but grant him Jerusalem. If we're trying to keep them separate kingdoms we probably shouldn't have them a single dagger away from reuniting. Continue to focus on Spain.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2013 01:00
|
|
|
Friends, countrymen, D'Hautevilles! It is for us to bring glory to the greatest dynasty of Europe and to do the will of God! Now, this bastard that stands before us and asks for an inheritance - he is our flesh and blood, a gift from God that we must hold close to our bosom, but he does not deserve our name, nor should we go unpunished for being too lax with our Patriarch, who let his seed spill forth into the wrong womb. The correct path forward is what our other esteemed family member has proposed - that he be married matrilineally to one of our fair daughters, and be given Jerusalem to rule. Only this way can we do both what is right in the sight of God and of men! Should his spouse somehow die before conceiving a D'Hauteville heir we will know it is God's punishment. The Lord gives and the Lord takes. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 06:23 on May 6, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 6, 2013 06:19
|
|
|
Legitimize Robert, grant him Jerusalem, give up Spain.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2013 22:58
|
|
|
Chapter Eleven: The Young King (1123-1127) The issue of Robert’s legitimization is contentious, but ultimately a majority of the Curia Regis agrees with Duke Guy’s proposal. Robert is no longer a bastard, and is confirmed as the Richard’s heir should the young king die before having children.  In accordance with the wishes of the Curia Regis, Richard officially abdicates as King of Jerusalem, and the kingdom passes to Robert.  While the decision to separate the kingdoms was accepted as inevitable by most, a few of Richard’s vassals nevertheless use it as a way to criticize the king. Richard is unpopular with many of his Norman vassals, who are unhappy with a child ruler. In the capital, however, Guy’s influence ensures that the king remains safe.  As a way of heading off criticism that Richard lost a crown for nothing, Guy has Richard crowned King of Sardinia, hoping to make up for the loss of Jerusalem.  Under Guy’s guidance, Richard’s early years remain without incident, and the king eventually grows old enough to have a hand in ruling his domain. He does not display any particular capacity for rule, however, and he continues to trust Guy to exercise control over most affairs of state.  As compensation for losing his place as Richard’s heir presumptive, Prince Abelard is granted the Duchy of Apulia, the original seat of his family’s power.  In 1125, Richard’s early years of peace come to an end with a declaration of war by the Byzantines, who wish to reclaim the lands around Dyrrachion captured so long ago by Robert Guiscard.  Though he fears battle itself, Richard is much less reticent about the possibility of his armies winning glory in war. He eagerly orders Norman armies under the command of the Dukes of Calabria and Salerno across the strait to defend his Greek possessions.  The first major engagement is the Battle of Servia, where Guy of Salerno – last living brother of Bohemond the Great – does battle with a Greek army while the Duke of Calabria marches to his aid.  The battle goes poorly at first, but the arrival of the Duke of Calabria turns the tides, securing the Normans the war’s first victory.  The Greeks have begun to siege Dyrrachion in the meantime, however, and Guy’s army is forced to march back to deal with them.  The battle is a catastrophe. The Greeks are well-prepared and take advantage of poor coordination among the Norman leaders. Before long, the Normans are in full retreat and Dyrrachion is lost.  Humiliated by the defeat, Richard is irrationally terrified of a Byzantine invasion of Italy, despite the advice of his advisors. He insists that they sue for peace, agreeing to cede all Norman lands in Greece back to the empire.  With Dyrrachion lost, Norman attempts to control trade through the Aegean are foiled.  Richard does not spend long stewing in his own frustration. Eager for victory, he chooses an opponent Sicily cannot possibly be defeated by: the tiny Republic of San Marino.  What results cannot truly be called a war. Though the Sammarinese defend their mountainous homeland valiantly, the Normans eventually capture the city. The acquisition is of questionable value given the effort that may be required to maintain it, but for now, Richard’s ego is salved slightly.  On his return from San Marino, Richard passes through Rome, where he meets with Pope Innocent. To his surprise and delight, the Pope announces to him that he is calling another crusade, this one to end any further threat to Christian control of Jerusalem. He intends to do this by invading Egypt and crushing the Fatimids once and for all.  Richard wastes no time in agreeing to join the crusade, eager to replicate the feats of his grandfather King Bohemond.  Unlike in the Greek war, Richard accompanies his men on the trip to Jerusalem, knowing that he must set foot in the Holy Land himself to be a true crusader. He does not, however, lead the army himself, preferring to allow his battle-hardened vassals to lead.  The Normans fight their first battle outside Petra, where they take a smaller Fatimid army by surprise.  The enemy army is effectively destroyed, and Richard has his first taste of real victory.  Overconfident and eager for further success, Richard quickly orders an attack on the next Muslim army discovered. This one, however, is larger and led by seasoned Ghazis, or Muslim holy warriors.  Outnumbered and outmatched, the Normans collapse before Richard’s eyes, forcing the leaders into ignominious retreat.  The king himself does not escape, however. Outrun by enemy cavalry, he is recognized for who he is and taken captive. 
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 07:07
|
|
|
If we're lucky he'll be executed.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 08:13
|
|
|
Oh god, looks like we need to save up to bail out our mediocre king. ...Also, betting the crusade ends up succeeding. And Robert wins it. And then he has a cool Crusader Double-Kingdom.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 08:24
|
|
|
Oh man wow, poor Richard, only thing he ever wanted was to match his predecessors. Has Robert even joined the Crusade yet? It's prime time he did if he hasn't.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 09:49
|
|
|
Hopefully Robert will manage to crush the Fatimids without our help and then maybe the Fatimids will be wrothful enough to execute Richard, thus sealing their doom 
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 10:03
|
|
|
Is Robert still heir? Here's hoping Richard is executed and the Bastard King of Jerusalem inherits
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 16:50
|
|
|
Nevets posted:Is Robert still heir? Yes. Richard isn't even married. And for the people asking about Robert being in the war, he didn't join the crusade. He's had his own issues to deal with in Jerusalem.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 18:47
|
|
|
Viscardus posted:And for the people asking about Robert being in the war, he didn't join the crusade. He's had his own issues to deal with in Jerusalem. This is a perfect dick move on his part. "Yeah, half-brother, go kill infidels. I've already won a throne on a crusade and don't want to steal your limelight. Plus I'm busy. Busy, busy, busy." You don't have to make excuses for Robert, Viscardus.
|
|
#
?
May 10, 2013 22:56
|
|
|
Chapter Twelve: The Fall of Cairo (1128-1136) While Richard is in Egypt – and now imprisoned as well – Duke Guy once again becomes the de facto ruler of Sicily.  Despite the victory at Eilat, the Fatimid Caliph’s situation is dire. The Second Crusade has drawn even greater support than the first, and the Egyptians are incapable of stemming the tide. Led by King Armand of England, the crusader forces have taken several key cities already.  Even after Armand himself is captured, the crusaders press on. A few months later, Cairo itself falls, and the Caliph flees south, abandoning Egypt to the crusaders.  Ecstatic at another great victory, the crusaders proclaim the Christian Kingdom of Egypt. Only Aswan remains under Fatimid control, and it is there that the Caliph retreats, his territories outside of Egypt abandoning him.  Unlike during the First Crusade, it is not a highborn prince who is given the crown. It is a modest Norman nobleman by the name of Randolf de Burton who distinguished himself in spectacular fashion at the siege of Cairo. He is considered the hero of the crusade and quickly elected king.  Meanwhile, Richard returns home without glamour, a hefty ransom purchasing his freedom. Though he is credited by the Pope with contributing to the crusader victory, it is a hollow honour for one who wished himself to be the true hero of the crusade.  Upon his return, he is quickly introduced to the noblewoman Guy has chosen for him to marry, a daughter of the German branch of House Bosonid and heiress to the Duchy of Provence. A highly capable woman, Queen Wulfhilde quickly takes on many of the responsibilities of state that Richard shies away from.  King Richard is more concerned with his still-wounded pride. Realizing that San Marino was far too small a target, he instead chooses to make an enemy of the child Duke of Modena.  His goal is the County of Spoleto, the southernmost of Modena’s lands and a relatively easy target for the Normans.  Spoleto itself falls quickly, before the Modenans can even mount a proper response.  While one army besieges the coveted county, another, led by Faramond, the new Duke of Salerno, pursues the Modenan army.  They catch and defeat them at the Battle of Cervia, effectively ending their hopes of halting the Sicilian advance.  The young duke has no choice but to surrender and save his other lands.  The victory ensures that Sicilian influence reaches as far north as ever, and many in Northern Italy fear the idea, however far-off, of peninsular unification.  Richard gains no pleasure from his success, however. The constant pressure he feels to live up the standards of his ancestors weighs heavily on him, and the difficulties of war in particular get to him.  To make matters worse, he finds himself falling ill at the same time. He begins to feel that he is cursed, doomed to failure and incapable of ruling his kingdom.  For days at a time he refuses to rise from bed, even after his body begins to recover from illness. He sinks into depression, unable to find any pleasure or satisfaction in his life. He becomes convinced that he will die soon, and makes no effort to pay attention to affairs of the realm.  Duke Guy and Queen Wulfhilde do their best to maintain the realm, but king’s inability to even speak in their favour leaves them vulnerable. Many vassals begin to question Richard’s rule, and his brothers Abelard and Roger begin plotting against each other, each seeing himself as a possible heir to the childless Richard – the promise that Robert of Jerusalem would be his heir conveniently forgotten. 
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2013 05:35
|
|
|
Succession war on the horizon? Remove anything with any sort of sharp edge from Richard's bedroom.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2013 05:46
|
|
|
Well, at least we have pretty borders.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2013 09:15
|
|
|
paragon1 posted:Well, at least we have pretty borders. Not while Pisa owns Corsica we don't! drat it, our King proclaims Sardinia as one of his titles and that includes Corsica as well.
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2013 10:05
|
|
|
Well, at least Richard sets a lower bar, so his ancestor(s) won't feel the same suicidal need to live up to the expectations. It's cool to see crusades going strong. The only really powerful crusader state left is the Seljuks, right?
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2013 15:56
|
|
|
Chapter Thirteen: Man of Peace (1137-1149) King Richard languishes in his dark state for months. Just when it seems that nothing will bring him out of it, Queen Wulfhilde finally gives birth to their first child, a son named Roger.  The effect on Richard seems to his court to be nothing short of a miracle. Seeing his infant son makes Richard smile for the first time in months, and slowly but steadily he comes out of his depression, the young boy his link back to the world.  Richard seems a changed man, filled with a new resolve to live a different sort of life. No more is he concerned with living up to the legacy of his forebears, nor with petty material things or pointless excess.  Richard has a more important goal: to do everything he can to care for his family, his subjects, and his kingdom. He swears off aggressive war, no longer able to accept the pointless loss of life he saw in his younger days, and instead puts as much of the state’s money as possible into building projects.  He sponsors missions to bring the light of God into the hearts of the heathens in Spain, as well, concerned for the wellbeing of his subjects’ souls as well as their bodies.  He encourages trade and development rather than conflict, and as the years roll by, Sicily begins to reap the rewards of his success.  In days past, such a passive attitude from a weak king would no doubt have played poorly with the Norman lords. But a new generation of feudal rulers is emerging, ones less concerned with future conquests and more concerned with stability and prosperity.  While the Kingdom of Sicily sits idle, however, important events are occurring elsewhere on the Mediterranean. The Occitan lands of Aquitaine and Toulouse are in open rebellion against the King of France, seeking freedom from their bonds of vassalage.  To the east, the two great crusader states are already bickering, as Robert of Jerusalem claims that many of the Egyptian lands were already promised to him.  Queen Wulfhilde is forced to leave Palermo for some time when the death of her mother leaves her as Duchess of Provence.  While King Richard is largely unconcerned with foreign affairs, Duke Guy recognizes a remarkable opportunity when King Randolf of Egypt and his young son both die, leaving his daughter Yvon heir to Egypt. Guy quickly manoeuvres to have Prince Roger marry the young queen.  While the marriage is fortuitous, it also presents problems. If Roger inherits the throne of Sicily and produces an heir, that son would unite Sicily and Egypt under one crown, creating the same problem that the Sicilian lords previously had with the Kingdom of Jerusalem. In order to address the issue, Richard and Guy look to the Curia Regis for advice. The first plan proposed is that of King Richard, who, while open to hearing the opinion of his councillors, is reluctant to disinherit Roger, even if his eldest son already has a kingdom. He would see succession by primogeniture firmly established as the law of Sicily.  The Egyptian lands are far off, but not so far as to make governing them impossible, especially with the help of King Robert. Whether said help would be granted is another question, however, considering his encroachment upon Egyptian territory.  Queen Wulfhilde, on the other hand, would prefer that their second son Robert inherit. At the moment Robert is betrothed to the child queen of Aragon, and Wulfhilde believes that uniting Aragon under the Sicilian crown would be the most practical course of action.  With her homeland of Provence joined to Sicily as well, it would be unchallenged for dominance of the Western Mediterranean.  Duke Guy has his own proposal, however. He argues that Roger and Robert should be left their kingdoms through their wives and that Prince William, Richard’s third and perhaps most promising son, should be named heir. While William is unlikely to happen upon a marriage as beneficial as those of his brothers, Guy believes Aragon to be as poor a long-term prospect for expansion as Egypt. Rather, he still dreams of the North African invasion he proposed to the Curia Regis so long ago. 
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 05:27
|
|
|
Robert inheriting seems to gel nicely with our focus on Spain.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 05:43
|
|
|
Voting Institute Succession by Thunderdome
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 06:03
|
|
|
William should inherit. The more D'Hauteville kingdoms the better.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 06:15
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Voting Institute Succession by Thunderdome Oh, come on, Argle, can't we get Beyond Thunderdome? Voting that Robert inherit. By blood and steel we shall forge a new Rome, around all the borders of Our Sea. William inheriting would serve that goal decently as well, but what is a Rome without a Carthage?
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 06:18
|
|
|
William inherits, because he is not a slothful boy, does Guy have some fetish for North Africa? That's 26 years we've denied him now, too bad, I would've liked to keep going.
Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 06:34 on May 17, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 06:23
|
|
|
William inherits. This is CK2 and I fully expect one branch or another to dry out and cause a rejoining of kingdoms anyway. Let's not waste a top-notch heir. This isn't necessarily an endorsement of the North Africa plan, though. I'd rather see King William focus on expanding north.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 06:28
|
|
|
What the, Robert is slothful and content! *shudder* OK, I've changed my vote. Hey, guys, let's vote to have Guy pressure the King to invade North Africa and grant him the Duchy seized. He's been a good and loyal servant and he keeps whining about North Africa, who better to serve as our local strongman? I'm hoping that will serve as extra impetus for him to convince the King, since he foreswore aggressive war. Otherwise I'd give it to Robert, so they only have one duchy each. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 06:50 on May 17, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 06:32
|
|
|
NihilCredo posted:William inherits. This is CK2 and I fully expect one branch or another to dry out and cause a rejoining of kingdoms anyway. Let's not waste a top-notch heir. To clarify, going with William would not necessarily mean a North African invasion. Guy just really wants that (probably to do with all the gold that comes through North Africa) and he knows that isn't going to happen while the focus remains on Spain. Readingaccount posted:Hey, guys, let's vote to have Guy pressure the King to invade North Africa and grant him the Duchy seized. He's been a good and loyal servant and he keeps whining about North Africa, who better to serve as our local strongman? You guys should feel free to suggest stuff like this, by the way. It won't be binding the way votes are, but I like getting suggestions in the thread and I will take it into account in future updates if something gets a lot of support.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 07:03
|
|
|
Thanks Viscardus, I was thinking maybe I should have asked first, so it's good to know it helps.  I figure Guy really needs his back in it for this one since his liege is almost a pacifist now. Readingaccount fucked around with this message at 07:13 on May 17, 2013 |
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 07:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 08:08 |
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:Voting Institute Succession by Thunderdome Blood Tanistry is best Tanistry. Barring the introduction of Blood Tanistry (is it even an option in CK2+, under any name?), Robert Inherits and we stick with a Spanish focus.
|
|
#
?
May 17, 2013 07:35
|
|