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Azuth0667 posted:There isn't any hypocrisy as its entirely focused around chait's going to try to kill ashael cause there are far too many ishlovers around that the probability of us making enough bad decisions in a row to cause the wrath of chait is 100%. This can be prevented by killing chait. Thats discounting the fact that chait outright threatened our family to our face which we aren't going to take. You can twist into mental pretzels all you want its not that complicated until we get more evidence. Imagine if we were Paebel, and hadn't had our mindwiped. We've promised an oath to Enkidel that we would never speak of his flight or suspected true nature. At some point in the future however, we enter dire circumstances where we must divulge that information. Knowing Enkidel is a good guy, we go to him to try and head off the surprise, thinking he will understand the mighty duress we were under. Instead he flips out and beats the poo poo out of us, swearing vengeance against our descendent's. Paebal voters decide Enkidel is really an rear end, his geniality mere cover and begin plotting revenge. Find/Replace dealings with Indor, or dealing with the Ananaki for a similar and more likely (and possibly inevitable) scenario. You can even replace Paebel with Uriah. There are no mental pretzels here. It's not about cowardice on vivisection (although there is that), it's literally everything to do with how shameful it is to this society. It's not hard Azuth to understand that if our dealings with Indor become public knowledge, Enkidel will be banished. Brain Candy posted:As someone who actually vote for this because I was frustrated AND thought we shouldn't have tried to break our oath to Chait... Chait is a dick. I don't want him dead over dumb poo poo we did, but he did threaten an innocent. I'm sure there's some wonderful rationalization, but I don't give a gently caress. I don't think Chait's behavior is cool or good, wanting to understand why doesn't mean I like Chait anymore than wanting to understand Fare or Mokt means I want to be buddies with them. However without understanding the scenario I don't think it's reasonable to wish death upon him. Patrick Spens posted:Reading between the very obvious lines: Chait swore an oath never to take human life or make weapons that took a human life. And unlike us, he cares about his oaths. If that's really as deep as it goes then gently caress Chait because while I can understand the importance of oaths, our breaking it is not so threatening to his existence or circumstances that he need become a drama queen and threaten our descendents and then commit suicide. If that really is it, then at the earliest opportunity we should find a replacement bow and offer to air mail him directly to Ganal.
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Jun 24, 2017 05:29
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TheCog posted:Nah the obelisk is a shape shifting lizard thing zepa tamed, Tudya told us that when we asked. No, the lizard shapeshifts into a tree. The Obelisk is an artifact Zepa created, like Arrow Chan. I'd fully support a new trip there. Maybe it reacts to "Damat" or "Faramu" or we may notice new things with our improved senses.
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Jun 24, 2017 05:32
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Really we should just get it over with and become full Spirit-Spirit so we can start the Melachim portion of the game.
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Jun 24, 2017 05:37
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I forgot you dick heads voted to mind wipe Paebel. Smh .. Just smh
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Jun 24, 2017 05:44
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We should kill the Orm because he's got a wierd psychology, is unstable and poses a real risk of creating a Non-El cult if other humans meet him and is thus a threat to Ur society. Oh whoops typo I mean OC, not Orm. Orm is cool.
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Jun 24, 2017 05:49
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Outrail posted:We should kill the Orm because he's got a wierd psychology, is unstable and poses a real risk of creating a Non-El cult if other humans meet him and is thus a threat to Ur society. Not this poo poo again. Yeah, lets just tell Uriah and the balls that we're leaving a demon worshiping cult in the ruins of Ibelam. That would have totally flown.
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Jun 24, 2017 05:55
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TheCog posted:Not this poo poo again.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:02
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Tsyni posted:I forgot you dick heads voted to mind wipe Paebel. Smh .. Just smh It was for his own good. If he got blackout drunk at a bar and blabbed about that time he saw Enkidel fly, we'd all be screwed.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:10
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TheCog posted:Not this poo poo again. That was absolutely not the proposed idea that involved not killing the dude. BUt as you said, not this poo poo again.
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Jun 24, 2017 06:25
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If we ever get powerful enough (doubtful) and are under the usual sort of enforced restrictions by the dick Melachim, we should just start threatening people's kids who don't obey our orders. Yes, Mister Farmer, you can have the land you desperately need to feed your family as long as you NEVER step on it on a Tuesday, no matter what. No of COURSE I can't tell you WHY you can't step on the ground on a Tuesday, it doesn't matter if there's an emergency, if you do then you will have broken a sacred oath and I'll murder your children. What? Oh I know they're innocent, but that's how it goes. You gently caress up, your kids die, praise El for dead kids. Mexican Deathgasm fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 06:30
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The only excuse Chait has for such a hardline legalistic stance is if it was forced on him by some unreasonable third party with leverage (e.g. meddling melachim). We hosed up when we agreed to abide by such rules, of course, but they're still stupid rules that lead to increased suffering and destruction by every measure we have.Azuth0667 posted:Dealing with Indor is fine and good her curatives and items saved several cool characters. The thread needs to stop being cowards and get with the vivisection of literal demons. Ralith fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 06:37
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On the one hand, Enkidel is great and his desires would make Ur a better place for everyone. On the other hand, much of Enkidel's psyche is taken up by crazy arguments. Maybe.....maybe Enkidel isn't the best and maybe he makes mistakes
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Jun 24, 2017 08:47
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Ralith posted:The only excuse Chait has for such a hardline legalistic stance is if it was forced on him by some unreasonable third party with leverage (e.g. meddling melachim). We hosed up when we agreed to abide by such rules, of course, but they're still stupid rules that lead to increased suffering and destruction by every measure we have. Fix'd. For emphasis, the process is supernaturally agonizing and doing it humanely is literally impossible without using most of the juice you're extracting to dull the pain.
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Jun 24, 2017 09:55
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Hellsau posted:On the one hand, Enkidel is great and his desires would make Ur a better place for everyone. On the other hand, much of Enkidel's psyche is taken up by crazy arguments. No. We are the BEST and everyone should believe what we believe because we cannot be wrong. You ninny. You ignoramus. You fop.
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Jun 24, 2017 12:10
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FaustianQ posted:Imagine if we were Paebel, and hadn't had our mindwiped. We've promised an oath to Enkidel that we would never speak of his flight or suspected true nature. At some point in the future however, we enter dire circumstances where we must divulge that information. Knowing Enkidel is a good guy, we go to him to try and head off the surprise, thinking he will understand the mighty duress we were under. Instead he flips out and beats the poo poo out of us, swearing vengeance against our descendent's. Paebal voters decide Enkidel is really an rear end, his geniality mere cover and begin plotting revenge. Find/Replace dealings with Indor, or dealing with the Ananaki for a similar and more likely (and possibly inevitable) scenario. You can even replace Paebel with Uriah. There are no mental pretzels here. Sure there is you're making all these assuptions about chait having made some deal or having some restrictions on the flimsiest of evidence. We know he's old, a master of the bow, wants to be left alone and potentially passed up being king of seir. None of that changes my mind that threaten family = death. We've done so many societally shameful things that vivisection is a really dumb thing to get hung up on. Remember when we did something so shameful triple dad threatened to geld us? That's not stopping any of you from stomping out slavery. We aren't going to be banished considering we've done far more heretical things like force a king to ban slavery which did not get us banished. The only thing we need to do is tell Indor we're in but, if and only if she tells us everything. The first sign of cryptic nonsesnse and its time to burn the witch.
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Jun 24, 2017 12:15
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Ralith posted:The only excuse Chait has for such a hardline legalistic stance is if it was forced on him by some unreasonable third party with leverage (e.g. meddling melachim). We hosed up when we agreed to abide by such rules, of course, but they're still stupid rules that lead to increased suffering and destruction by every measure we have. We had an El guided example of the giant souls being vivisected.
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Jun 24, 2017 12:17
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Azuth0667 posted:We had an El guided example of the giant souls being vivisected. Yeah, but gently caress those guys. All of them deserved what we did to them, and doing it sent many trapped human souls on a safe journey to Mt. Har. Indor wanted us to help her do it for sorcery and profit, and that's just a bridge too far.
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Jun 24, 2017 12:52
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Azuth0667 posted:We've done so many societally shameful things that vivisection is a really dumb thing to get hung up on. Remember when we did something so shameful triple dad threatened to geld us? That's not stopping any of you from stomping out slavery. We aren't going to be banished considering we've done far more heretical things like force a king to ban slavery which did not get us banished. It's almost like we're willing to do shamefull things for the greator good, but not for power. Also, while the slavery thing might be /shamefull/ it's not nessecarily /immoral/
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Jun 24, 2017 12:58
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Diqnol posted:No. We are the BEST and everyone should believe what we believe because we cannot be wrong. You ninny. You ignoramus. You fop. Poppycock! Enkidel is most firmly not the cat's pajamas. I motion that all insults and rebuttals in this thread must now be delivered in an old-timey fashion.
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Jun 24, 2017 13:09
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Zeroisanumber posted:Yeah, but gently caress those guys. All of them deserved what we did to them, and doing it sent many trapped human souls on a safe journey to Mt. Har. Indor wanted us to help her do it for sorcery and profit, and that's just a bridge too far. gently caress all of the monsters that want to harm humans is what I'm saying. Being cowardly because its vivisection which I bet most of you had no idea what it was or what it is used for until this thread is dumb. Magnusth posted:It's almost like we're willing to do shamefull things for the greator good, but not for power. Also, while the slavery thing might be /shamefull/ it's not nessecarily /immoral/ In this setting it is immoral because there is no criminal justice system, its not what labaras decreed, and its a direct violation of "don't mess with the affairs of kings." What exactly is supposed to happen when one person wrong another in acco and they can't pay some kind of restituion now? Kill them or exile them is all this society has figured out. For example Frank the goathearder accidentally has his goats graze on Joe the corn farmers land destroying Joe's crops and the entirety of Frank's herd is not enough to repay Joe. You aren't Enkidel, you're sitting on the chair in the acco palace listening to these two petitioners how do you solve this? You guys are freakishly arbitrary about this. Azuth0667 fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 13:10
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Hellsau posted:On the one hand, Enkidel is great and his desires would make Ur a better place for everyone. On the other hand, much of Enkidel's psyche is taken up by crazy arguments. Heresy. There is but one god whose name is El and Enkidel is his prophet. As far as the PtB question, I use that for the Ur-proper Melachim/House of El. Watchers/Trio for Zepathan Melachim. Also Azuth you're getting super loving salty about this stuff. Relax man.
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Jun 24, 2017 13:27
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It is kinda weird how slavery is OK when so much weight is placed on freedom by the PtB.
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Jun 24, 2017 13:30
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There Bias Two posted:Poppycock! Enkidel is most firmly not the cat's pajamas.
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Jun 24, 2017 13:49
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Greggster posted:It is kinda weird how slavery is OK when so much weight is placed on freedom by the PtB. Humans have the freedom to be pieces of poo poo to each other. Abominations like Enkidel don't have the right to impinge on that freedom through means not available to humans.
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Jun 24, 2017 13:49
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Nyaa posted:What did you say about cat!? You are cumberworld and your DRIGGLE-DRAGGLE DOGGO can quisby in the pant! You googled those! 
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Jun 24, 2017 13:51
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There Bias Two posted:You googled those!
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Jun 24, 2017 13:57
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Ralith posted:The only excuse Chait has for such a hardline legalistic stance is if it was forced on him by some unreasonable third party with leverage (e.g. meddling melachim). We hosed up when we agreed to abide by such rules, of course, but they're still stupid rules that lead to increased suffering and destruction by every measure we have. I honestly want to default on this as the possible stance just because Zepath seems to be a cluster of independent melachim power and the Urian Green Acres for Old Heroes. Factor in Bareen/Indor/Paubi existing despite the incredibly conservative nature of Zepathan elite, and there seems to be a tangle of bureaucratic red tape allowing a bunch of conflicting powers to exist yet not attempt to annihilate each other. Azuth0667 posted:Sure there is you're making all these assuptions about chait having made some deal or having some restrictions on the flimsiest of evidence. We know he's old, a master of the bow, wants to be left alone and potentially passed up being king of seir. Yes, that's my point, we don't know enough. Urgh, how is this hard to understand, my argument isn't that Chait is under divine NDA or contract, rather that there is the storng possibility he is and without further proof it's asinine to wish him death yet. We do not have full scope or understanding of what is and our lack of knowledge could in our haste and anger make things worse, such as in my example where Paebel plots and eventually achieves killing Enkidel in proactive vengeance, only then realizing the terrible consequence for doing so and having the real horrifying truth of his rash actions revealed to him. I know to you this is a fast ticking time bomb but killing Chait isn't something we can just take back, death doesn't give redoes if we gently caress up. You're willing to flail around inside a limited world view and break poo poo and when bad things happen, blame people who won't tell us everything. We're not a drat toddler. I am not exonerating Chait, I am seeking investigation, trail and then judgment. If Chait is being compelled then there is clearly an even greater rear end in a top hat we have to deal with and I'd rather know about them as well. It's not the vivisection, oh jesus, I'm talking about dealing with a known witch period. I don't get what is so hard to process about our past with Indor becoming known being an exile or execution waiting to happen. Vivisection is whatever at this point, throw another on the drat pile of societal sins which would bury us if they became known. Diog has repeatedly hinted at this Damocles sword hanging over us. Being anti-slavery is not on par with witchcraft, holy poo poo. TripleDad was mad not because we freed people but because we went behind his back to make that deal. The method, not the goal, was what pissed him off. Zebenetha apparently thinks it's utopic to ban slavery, not the work of demons, and that's the official church line. Greggster posted:It is kinda weird how slavery is OK when so much weight is placed on freedom by the PtB. Urian society seems to place slavery as a replacement for jail with arbitrary sentencing depending on timing to the next Jubilee, but it's more an artifact from when people lived ridiculously long lives that even 50 years of forced labor was a small portion of their existence. Modern Urian slavery is just an excuse for mass conscripted, exploitative labor and punishment for being poor or on the wrong side of a stupid war and probably something that even the PtB hates but deals with because of their extremely conservative hands off approach. I think Enkidel needs to come up with a better system, we theoretically have the ability to compel or even mindwipe people, why not simply remove criminal elements from peoples minds on the worst cases, especially those with mental compulsions (I really don't know why the Melachim would have an issue with this, these types of faults aren't by choice)? I believe this is the best answer for criminal rehab since I don't think Diog is going to literally let us setup the facilities and staff to handle a proper criminal rehab center. Enkidel is already trying to handle the other half of the criminal equation through proper economic prosperity and distribution with much fairer social policies as he can manage inside Ur.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:00
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Outrail posted:Orm is cool.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:04
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Exile/kill remorseless criminal and forced community service for repentant. Jail time is a terrible system of pointless revenge anyway.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:04
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FaustianQ posted:I honestly want to default on this as the possible stance just because Zepath seems to be a cluster of independent melachim power and the Urian Green Acres for Old Heroes. Factor in Bareen/Indor/Paubi existing despite the incredibly conservative nature of Zepathan elite, and there seems to be a tangle of bureaucratic red tape allowing a bunch of conflicting powers to exist yet not attempt to annihilate each other. I am on a phone so you're going to get a response with much more effort later. To be succinct and to make responding on this loving thing tolerabble being anti-slavery and witch-craft are both against labaras teaching which makes them equally bad in this setting. Its definitely the vivisection that throws the thread read the previous two pages and you have people literally talking about their apprehensions to it. Chaits why doesn't matter his action of threatening our family did hence he's on the list.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:12
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There Bias Two posted:I motion that all insults and rebuttals in this thread must now be delivered in an old-timey fashion. Durst thou misbegotten wretches vote wrongly?
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Jun 24, 2017 14:22
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Schwza posted:Death to all who oppose the Prophet Enkidel imho Behead those who insult Snarls imo
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Jun 24, 2017 14:25
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SniperWoreConverse posted:Behead those who insult Snarls imo
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Jun 24, 2017 14:28
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Nyaa posted:You will never take me alive! Ye bedswerver of the canine! KNAVERY
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Jun 24, 2017 14:29
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Azuth0667 posted:I am on a phone so you're going to get a response with much more effort later. To be succinct and to make responding on this loving thing tolerabble being anti-slavery and witch-craft are both against labaras teaching which makes them equally bad in this setting. Its definitely the vivisection that throws the thread read the previous two pages and you have people literally talking about their apprehensions to it. Except word of the Church is that they are not equally bad, context matters between why slavery is seen as integral and not consorting with witches as integral. The circumstances on abolition can also matter on whether it is good or bad, there is nuance to it. Meanwhile, there is no nuance to witchcraft and it's always hellaheretical. I'm not talking about issues the thread has with Indor, I'm talking about Zepath or Ur. The thread can have whatever opinion it wants on Indor and vivsection, ain't going to change poo poo about the consequences in the game for dealing with a witch publicly, or such dealings becoming public. Besides threatening our family, what other leverage could Chait ever hold over us, after we've demonstrated willingness to break our word? We offered ourselves up to him when he became enraged, threatening our life clearly means nothing to us.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:31
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Imperialist Dog posted:KNAVERY Nay.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:33
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AbysmalPeptoBismol posted:Hahahahaha this really is some Baby Tier poo poo right here Quoting this because holy poo poo are you right AbysmalPeptoBismol.
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Jun 24, 2017 14:47
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FaustianQ posted:I don't think Chait's behavior is cool or good, wanting to understand why doesn't mean I like Chait anymore than wanting to understand Fare or Mokt means I want to be buddies with them. However without understanding the scenario I don't think it's reasonable to wish death upon him. It's perfectly fine to wish death on Fare or Mokt without understanding the circumstances. They chose to use people as blood slaves. I don't care if they just wanted to be painters or something, they did what they did and do what they do. Chait judged us in the same manner, and I think that's fine. Worrying about ~Reasons~ is how a bunch of people convinced themselves that Chait would think the oathbreaking is okay. I guess you don't have to agree with this type of ethical reasoning, but it probably behoves you to consider it if you want to be able to predict reactions?
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Jun 24, 2017 15:11
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"Well yea I swore an oath on my honour not to do a thing but here are the reasons why I felt it not only prudent, but actually a good thing as to why I broke it, I mean tecnicall......WAIT WHERE ARE YOU DRAGGING ME???, IT CAN BE INTERPRETED THIS WAY TOO!!....." -Time travelling goon living in ancient Mesopotamia  Cuneiform tablet describing how big a jerk Hammurabi is c. 3500bc alpaca diseases fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jun 24, 2017 |
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Jun 24, 2017 15:20
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Task Manager posted:I feel like the Chait argument still has a few good chances of coming back up - I can see people getting salty about the Seirrow and that snowballing back to Chait, probably while we're in the middle of coordinating Kavodels defenses, for example. I knew that old chestnut had some life left in it! Bit wrong on the timing and how it came up, tho.
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Jun 24, 2017 15:31
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