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There's nothing wrong with meta-progression, it can be very rewarding. Give me a meta-progression that's nudging me towards being able to experience deeper content as opposed to something like rote memorization of a bunch of obtuse, arcane bullshit in the traditional roguelike model (mainly Nethack, games like Angband and Crawl have been fairly streamlined and are relatively spoiler-free).
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May 25, 2020 11:27
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Nethack is an educational title, encouraging students to develop online research skills
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May 25, 2020 21:22
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Playing ToME again. Sure, having to submit a math paper on every item I pick up is draining, but the content,
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May 29, 2020 00:00
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One thing that really pisses me off about Gungeon, and a lot of roguelites of a similar vein is that they really, really don't seem to get what makes Isaac so appealing. Each run, it's really unexpected what kind of crazy pickup combos you're going to end up with (unless of course you're a very good/experienced player who can steer the outcomes). That run diversity I just feel like I didn't get with Gungeon and so I feel like there's less motivation to go again, whereas with Isaac I'm always like "one more...". It baffles me that game designers influenced by Isaac haven't realised this, honestly. It extends to roguelikes too, a lack of randomization means you just end up playing a second-rate RPG - a great example of this is how incredibly irrelevant dungeon generation is in something like Diablo 3, compared to something like Crawl where the placement of a vault or dungeon structure is key to your survival.
perc2 fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 14:50
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SKULL.GIF posted:I recently got into Hades this week, and while it comes short on some important aspects of roguelik/tes (it's extremely combat oriented, map variety is pretty weak, there's barely any off-the-beaten-path exploration or secrets), it really really nails the "build crazy combos" and "try another run and see what I get this time" aspects. Sweet will check this out
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Jul 24, 2020 23:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:all i ask, really, is that developers pick one person in particular and make a game for them; the extent to which anyone else enjoys it being merely a happy coincidence Speaking of extremely specific games that only I care about, one day someone is going to come along and make an insanely detailed fantasy arena management sim using ASCII graphics, and it'll have a fully simulated transfer market and whole pages of combat performance stats and attributes and all other games will become redundant. Age of Gladiators 2 got close but graphics are simply an obstacle to adding. more. features. and I want a fantasy setting.
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Sep 27, 2020 14:58
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DisDisDis posted:ultima ratio regum will save roguelikes by being a player skill-less game where you discover lore til you randomly die and reincarnate to discover new lore Now there's a game I haven't heard in a while... aaaand amazing he's still going with it? I thought it was a goner for sure
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Sep 28, 2020 15:42
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victrix posted:I'm not sure if trad roguelikes are dead, but for my money, all the cool action in rogue* these days is roguelites, current darling being Hades. They're not, there's hundreds of them and discussion and community for traditional roguelikes is waaaaay bigger than it was like, 10 years ago. You've got whole wikis, subreddits, forums, development communities, games, etc. dedicated to Berlin-style, ASCII RLs that you didn't used to. The difference is the word "roguelike" has been hijacked by general indie game development to mean all kinds of things, I don't care though because I know a trad roguelike vs. a roguelite when I see one, you'll go mad trying to fight it, so the best thing is just not to give a poo poo. I'm willing to bet most game journalists have absolutely no idea about the lineage and progression of the genre... there's a hefty Medium article in the making that details their history and how we ended up here but I ain't writing it perc2 fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 10:22
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Oh look it's yet another discussion about what is and isn't a roguelike. This definitely hasn't been happening since the dawn of time and boring the gently caress out of everyone
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Oct 9, 2020 23:04
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Apologies but we can do better for "hot" than an ancient version of ADOM  Try: Demon, a monster collecting roguelike with Shin Megami Tensei vibes: http://demon.ferretdev.org/ Shadow Of The Wyrm has got some decent meat and bones on it now: http://www.shadowofthewyrm.org/ FrogComPosband is the latest hotness in disgustingly ridiculous *band variants: https://github.com/sulkasormi/frogcomposband/releases If you want the same insanely overdeveloped thing but in a Nethack flavour, try Slash'EM Extended: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Slash%27EM_Extended I think TGGW doesn't get enough love, mainly because it's like the spiritual successor to Incursion: http://www.thegroundgivesway.com/ Infra Arcana has Lovecraft vibes to the max: https://sites.google.com/site/infraarcana/home You've probably heard of CDDA, but just in case; it's really fleshed out now and has a big community: https://cataclysmdda.org/ Finally Sil-Q, which although it's a *band variant, plays absolutely nothing like a *band and is an actively developed continuation of the legendary Sil: https://github.com/sil-quirk/sil-q/releases perc2 fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 11:19
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A Strange Aeon posted:I really like TGGW, inventory you find being the entirety of your build forces you to try different stuff each run and there's a nice balance between resting to get energy back and having enough food and health. Yeah, I may have been a bit loose with "spiritual successor to Incursion", it's more the aesthetics. But this game does something that so many roguelikes don't, by actually making each run exciting exactly because you have no idea what you're going to get. I often wonder with games like Anbgand whether there's actually any point to the random generation when you generally end up with the same ascension kit, having killed most of the same uniques, in the same-looking 100 floors. perc2 fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Oct 16, 2020 |
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Oct 16, 2020 14:28
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Fellatio del Toro posted:anyone tried this yet? I would like to, but apparently there's no save on quit and it's content-sparse...
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Oct 16, 2020 18:06
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I know, it's awful, isn't it
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Oct 18, 2020 16:30
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There's nothing much else to really do to the game IMO, since they seem so keen on not adding any major content. If that game upped its branch diversity more (as in, same number of branches per run, but just a wider pool to generate from) I'd be up for it but since they seem so myopically obsessed with balance and streamlining I don't think that's going to happen. I haven't checked out the state of Crawl forks but now would be a good time for someone to straight up doing an extended variant who isn't afraid to create a bit of jank at the expense of greater content... I had an idea for a "haunted forest" branch I threw at the devs years ago that I really liked, full of autumnal trees, starry pools and haunted wells, but making a new branch requires a lot of tilesetting I guess, and they are probably hell to code for since none of the variants I have seen are doing anything with branches either. perc2 fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 18, 2020 |
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Oct 18, 2020 21:02
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So I caved and checked out Hades due to the overwhelmingly positive rating and I'll be honest, this is the third time I've been duped by Supergiant games. Their work is 80% flash and 20% content. I don't even consider it a roguelite, it is a simple action hack and slash with a bunch of different weapons to try, but the run experience is so utterly homogenous that I wonder why they bothered with the random elements at all. It suffers from a similar problem that Diablo 3 does: the random generation really makes no difference because it's so "soft" and inconsequential. Strong randomization in games rests on one core tenet: Make the player genuinely excited and clueless about what they'll experience on their next go/run. Crawl does this by mixing up artifacts, uniques and potential dungeon branches in such a way that you have to basically try and scum or play for a really long time to get some kind of approved "ascension kit". TGGW and Isaac take this idea to the heart and define the run by what you happen to come across. I know I go on about this but it really is so critical to rogue-* design and games that treat it as an afterthought are living in a state of sin. Hades doesn't really offer anything like that and as such it's really just a cute, gorgeous looking action game.
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Oct 23, 2020 13:36
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All the boons I acquired didn't really fundamentally change the way I was playing, I guess. My point isn't about personal taste really, it's about how the game isn't really a good roguelite and I wish it was just sold as an action game.
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Oct 23, 2020 14:26
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Johnny Joestar posted:it's absolutely a good roguelite, lmao. it's okay to just not like a thing I clearly stated I don't like it, don't get defensive. What you're playing is just an action hack and slash with the thinnest veneer of any kind of roguelike/lite functionality, it fails miserably in that regard.
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Oct 23, 2020 14:40
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I apologise for throwing a grenade in the thread, I am very hungover and I've listened to everyone's opinions and they are valid and I'm excited to move on from my Hades buyer's remorse
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Oct 23, 2020 20:08
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One of Sseth's crits was that throwing an object down a hole was slow because it generated say, 10 new levels as a result. If that was true, that's not a Unity thing, it's a developer thing (and can be 'fixed'). There limits to every engine, but I really don't think anything in CoQ will be pushing that, that can't be rewritten / refactored if the devs wished to do so. Glad it got exposure and sales even if the guy and his followers are all 14 year old edgelords. perc2 fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Oct 24, 2020 |
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Oct 24, 2020 09:39
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cheetah7071 posted:Moving back to the primary topic of the thread, what's the current hotness in traditional, nethack-style roguelikes? I played Crawl for years but fell off around the time gooncrawl updates started slowing down (or stopped?). For a while I kept feeling like the learning curve in every traditional roguelike was so steep that I just didn't want to get over that hump again and just stuck to the one game where I had already learned it reasonably well. But it's been a few years now and I feel like I probably have enough distance to try climbing that mountain another time. Or maybe these days roguelikes that are actually easy to learn exist. Who knows?? Certainly not me. I mentioned some currently "hot" traditional roguelikes here, maybe one or more may spark your interest but I wouldn't call them Nethack-style specifically, but maybe you're still interested: here. If you've been away for years then are of course still popular roguelikes that have had significant updates, this list just tries to highlight ones that have become popular in traditional circles within the past few years and might not be as well known. Something about Qud that perhaps Unormal could confirm or not, is if the near-unheard of 90s gem that is Alphaman was at all an influence on Qud?   I played it a lot as a kid, probably one of my first roguelikes. Post-apoc, mutations, humourous or bizarre game elements, psychic powers, overworld. Such a gem although I have no idea how it holds up today.
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Oct 25, 2020 10:12
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I think the default birth options are the best in v4. No selling of items but increased gold find is great because it greatly streamlines and speeds up playtime, and that's on by default now. I don't think the races really have that much of an impact unless you try to pair them up in bad combinations, i.e. trying to play a Half-Troll Mage. But you might want to consider going with a race that has good stats like a Dunadan or High Elf, which necessitates a slower pace of play due to the XP mod, but helps with early game survivability if you're willing to grind more. I think Priest is a decent, uncomplicated 'survivor' class as Detect Evil and healing spells can save your bacon throughout the entire run if you don't want to go standard sword and board. Magic users like Mage and Necromancer are a bit more advanced and squishy. Really, the key to ascending in Angband is making sure you hit gear milestones as you dive. Because getting out of dodge is generally cheap, the danger in this game comes from being caught off guard by a resistance. Speed also becomes important. The classic spoilers have something like this: 1000': Free Action, See Invisible 1250': Basic four Resistances 1900': Maxxed Stats, Confusion Resistance, Blindness Resistance 2000': Poison Resistance 2500': Hold Life 2700': Chaos Resistance, Nether Resistance 3000': Permanent and Temporary Speed of +20 or greater 4000': Permanent + Temporary Speed of +30 or greater 4950': As much as you can get. Sustains, Speed, every resistance And you should definitely not take this lightly; paralysis or even blindless can cut a run short even in what seemed like a safe floor, not to mention getting blasted by an elemental breath you hadn't covered.
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Oct 25, 2020 19:09
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In fact, if you sort the Angband ladder by date, you can see a lot of Paladins and Priests matched with non-squishy races like Dwarves and Half-Trolls. http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-browse.php?v=Angband&s=1
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Oct 25, 2020 19:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This, on the other hand, is incredibly dangerous thinking. The problem is that it creates an overly-simplistic "safety" mentality: "if I have X before I visit Y depth, then I am safe". It ignores why these abilities are important (due to specific monsters that become more common as you go deeper), and also ignores the fact that monsters can and will show up before the depth that is indicated in the list. It also encourages players to play in a very slow, grindy fashion, which leads to tedium, boredom, mistakes, and death. Finally, as the person who wrote The Angband Newbie Guide I'm getting tired of seeing stuff I wrote more than twenty loving years ago get dragged out and preached as gospel when a) the game is completely different now, and b) it wasn't even good advice when it was written. Sure, fair enough. The old spoilers was just rough illustration for lack of finding a more up-to-date one, but I think the general order still holds in v4. I think my mindset is that a returning player isn't going to have an internal knowledge or monster memory at hand necessarily, which is why I wanted to stress covering bases to not get caught out; but you're right that playing it to the letter and trying to grind out each one is just no fun at all anyway. You just might not know when to run unless you build out the MM.
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Oct 25, 2020 19:36
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:People have beaten the game with artifactless egoless bookless mages drat, are there any ladder dumps or YT runs I can see of this if you recall? EDIT: I've just started Googling challenge runs and this forced descent one will keep me going for a while at least https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_caNGTMJa0 perc2 fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Oct 25, 2020 |
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Oct 25, 2020 20:27
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Armor-Piercing posted:Also, how do I turn on full monster memory? Monster memory I thought was under Options -> Cheat options, but that's something different, apparently the solution is here. Re: Inventory, in addition to what was said, I don't think you needed 3 rods of Treasure Detection, and the digging ring is probably overkill.
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Oct 27, 2020 13:42
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ExiledTinkerer posted:The horizons can only be so greedy and vast when The Dream is so clearly a Roguelike'ish crack at The Chaos Engine/Soldiers of Fortune anew~ I know this wasn't a sober post but thanks for the update, going to drop something on RL2 now.
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Oct 29, 2020 02:24
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I don't think DCSS has too much space, the dungeon levels are just the right balance for progression and challenge, it's just autoexplore helps to speed up your run and hit decision points quickly once you know what you're doing. Autoexplore is good, but unfortunately it's not present in games like Angband where level size and quantity really is tedium, despite best efforts to whittle it down over the years.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:17
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Elephant Parade posted:See, I think that there shouldn't be a large enough gap between decision points for a way to quickly skip from one to the next to be necessary. That's what I mean by "empty space". DCSS needs to give the player space so they can maneuver tactically, teleport with a degree of safety, etc. The dungeons floors are still sufficiently compact and feature-rich. It's not a problem, and autoexplore isn't fixing any "problem", it's complementing the design and streamlining. Nobody thinks DCSS dungeon size and features are its weak point. It's a good observation that "autoexplore is a crutch" but you can't just throw it at everything.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:40
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Autoexplore is good for games that are designed with autoexplore in mind. It is not appropriate for all games, and people extolling its virtues are the roguelike equivalent of players asking for every game to have multiplayer. It's absolutely not the same as "asking for every game to have multiplayer", and you might want to check the logic in your argument since you have just extolled its virtues by saying it has positive virtues in the previous sentence.
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Nov 1, 2020 18:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:
Lol get your head out of your rear end
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Nov 1, 2020 20:15
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:i mean if you try autoexploring in lategame angband or god forbid frogcomposband without stopping to detect monsters you'll get horrifically murdered probably Same reason I don't use autoexplore in Tomb in DCSS. It's really not the big problem some are making it out to be, unless you really have no capacity for learning from your mistakes.
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Nov 1, 2020 21:12
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Goffer posted:Pretty sure early games like rogue and Moria had auto walk in ^><v which would propel you down long empty corridors and around bends where there was only 1 direction to go. Not exactly auto explore but they did know about skipping the tedium of pressing -> 50 times to get across the screen. The thing about autoexplore is not only will it save having to make a decision where to turn next to get to an unexplored region, it'll just take you there. I dunno if you've played Angband recently but trying to make your way across a level often requires a fair bit of awkward backtracking, even with fast travel in place, due to the dungeon gen algorithm being very "branchy"; not to mention consulting a map in another mode. In a game where I'm visiting hundreds of floors, I really am looking for a way to survey floors as quickly as I can until I hit a floor worth taking my time on. quote:That said I'm not sold on the level design of dcss or qud in terms of interesting spaces that I would want to manually explore. I think the old games sort of got around it because there weren't as many nooks and crannies to explore, most rooms were fully revealed on entering and so you didn't need to poke your head in every crevice. There was almost more structure to them? I'm not sure how you could argue something like Moria's dungeons are more interesting than Crawls; Crawls are far more compact, varied and feature rich, being able to draw from a wide range of interesting and well designed vaults. Early game vaults in something like Angband (and IIRC Moria) are often completely devoid of anything interesting and sometimes extremely tedious to traverse (like the checkerboard vault). If you meant something like Nethack & ADOM, then agreed the one-screen paradigm reduces tedium greatly, but they definitely have to compromise on structural richness as a result. I really think Crawl hits the perfect balance in this regard.
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Nov 1, 2020 22:24
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OxMan posted:Speaking of Let It Die, what other good roguelikes/lites are on ps4? I'm working away from home 12 hr shift days and games I can do a run or 2 of are the only ones I really have time to play. I've been playing GalakZ which in spite of being ugly as sin is actually super fun, I finally beat 2-1 this morning so I'm looking forward to finally seeing what's next. I also got The Long Journey Home, been doing the tutorial, hard game till you get used to its physics. I've had rogue legacy and binding of Isaac forever so I'm pretty done with those. I've heard some things about moonlighter, but I'm not sure it's my bag. There are plenty of great roguelites available that a couple of "best roguelites" Google search will help you with, but if you or anyone is interested in as traditional a roguelike experience as you can on this platform, the pickings are truly slim from what I've played: Mystery Chronicle: One Way Heroics is great; it's a reworking of One Way Heroics. Unfortunately it messed up a bunch of stuff from OWH, the best version is on PC called One Way Heroics+. BUT if you haven't played that I still think it's a really nice game and it has a bunch of features and polish too, you won't notice any problems without the other title to reference. The way it plays will seem strange at first if you're not familiar, but it quickly becomes intuitive. Quest Of Dungeons is an extremely by-the-book roguelike with not much going for it, but could be a fun challenge if you get it on sale. Caution with Dragon Fin Soup. At a glance it looks like the business, but (and apologies because it's been a few years), I remember getting seriously frustrated with it, like it has some fundamental issues that make it not fun to play. Touhou Genso Wanderer -Reloaded- is a fairly decent roguelike in the vein of the Shiren style, and has a decent amount of content and classic mechanics to be enjoyable but the Touhou theme, for this goon at least, makes it much less enjoyable. Dragon Fang Z is another Shiren style RL that doesn't have much going for it. That's all I can think of for now. Like I say, slim pickings. The only game I'd really rate out of this bunch is One Way Heroics, which is definitely a must buy, the rest may appeal if you're big into trad roguelikes.
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Nov 4, 2020 18:32
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:does world of horror have a release date? how has it been shaping up in EA? I think it's worth it, the price point corresponds to the 10 or so hours you'll get out of it. Most of the reviews are people complaining about the game design but let's not kid ourselves, this is the kind of game you put on a big screen with a bunch of friends, kick back with a beer, and just enjoy the weird scenarios and cool aesthetic for an hour or two.
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Nov 9, 2020 11:56
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Mithross posted:Anyone else check out Vault of the Void? It's a twist on Slay the Spire for sure, but I like what they changed. Biggest change: you gather cards as you go through a run, but they are added to a collection, not a deck. You only take 20 cards into each encounter, so instead of a rougelite deckbuilder it's more of a rougelike card collector, like Slay the Spire and Millenium Blades (a board game meant to replicate the experience of playing in a CCG tournament) had a baby. They mixed up other things as well, your energy has a low cap, but current energy is carried between turns. You gain a limited amount each turn but can discard non-temporary cards to gain more. I like it, the ability to modify your deck and slot gems on top of the usual card upgrades and artifacts means there's lots of tactical options and decisions to be made. On lower difficulties you can just breeze through and not give it much consideration, but on harder difficulties (the dev just released Impossible+ difficulty), the decision what to slot where and what deck comp to have ahead of fights adds to the standard tactics of card choice, artifact choice and route. The dev seems really responsive and keen on tight design ala StS, so the future looks bright. The two other unlocked classes so far are a bit of a headfuck though, I'm starting to get my head around The Enlightened, where you really have to plan ahead and think more carefully. The corruption-based one is a bit of a mystery at the moment, but you have to kind of see-saw between maximising your damage and minimizing your threat. The Void fight itself is just a straight out damage race but as I understand it's designed that way since it's about the journey, plus a final straightforward "deck check". So yeah, well worth getting for any StS fan, I think the main disappointment so far is the different encounters don't really have unique enough flavour and feel.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:38
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doctorfrog posted:I check URR about once per week, partly because it's beautiful and promising, partly because every post makes it seem like it's almost ready except for just one thing. It's forever edging toward release. I've followed development for several years and to be honest I think this will be an extremely interesting thing to explore, but I don't think there's going to be much of a repeatedly playable game here.
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Dec 11, 2020 21:53
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doctorfrog posted:I haven't gotten a good taste for it, but the build I managed to get running a couple years ago generated a buncha stuff like gods and religion and culture and whatnot, and that sounded cool. But then I roamed around a big empty city each time. I wonder what gameplay it intends to have, or is it like a roguelike vacation simulator? I don't get the impression there will really be any. It's taken him years to get to this point, and actual playability design is probably taking a massive back seat to generating sprawling cities, histories, items. It's kinda like DF Adventure Mode, it has to live and work the world of Fortress Mode, but there are some fundamental design and performance issues such that, as an actual well-made roguelike adventure game, that you'd want to play, it's pretty bad. I expect it'll be fun to explore but if you want to make an open-world game of this kind of scope and turn it into something that won't get tiresome after a couple of hours, you need to make it open source (thinking Cataclysm) and/or have a few dedicated devs working away at turning the world around some core well-planned, not-tedious gameplay design and vision. perc2 fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Dec 12, 2020 |
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Dec 12, 2020 11:38
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Jedit posted:Daughter of the Void is snowbally but on the whole I consider her to be bad. The Corruption starter deck is particularly useless, as all its damage is based on Corruption but it has only two cards that generate it and they cost 2 energy. Until you can upgrade one of them - which gives Rigged and no other benefit - you're relying entirely on Purging and using your spell to scrape up tiny amounts of damage until you can spend basically an entire turn getting started. Soultithe ramps up faster, but unlike Corruption it increases your threat. However, if you're not worried about benefiting from Threshold cards and just want the fast Corruption stacks, there's a reasonably common block card that will dump up to 5 Soultithe for 2 block each. I just beat a Normal run with a Corruption deck and yeah, it was pretty straightforward. Every card generates Corruption though - every time you purge! The idea is to keep blocking and purging your offensive cards until you build up enough Corruption, then gradient towards the offense. I had two copies of the buff that spreads out damage each time you shuffle with Rigged, so I could keep some damage ticking along right from the get go. That synergises nicely with the default spell and the purge mechanic as you burn through your deck faster than other playstyles. I think the Threat-based build is way more advanced so I'll probably keep trying Corruption until I get a better handle on the cards.
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Dec 12, 2020 18:48
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I've completed Hard thanks bud, the deck is straightforward compared to other playstyles.
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Dec 12, 2020 20:00
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There's two archetypes per class atm and they do play quite differently, so it's worth trying both even if your initial vibes on the class is off. Definitely agree the Enlightened has a bit too much keyword salad going on.
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Dec 23, 2020 15:37
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