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GenHavoc
Jul 19, 2006

Vive L'Empreur!
Vive La Surcouf!
Fascinating stuff Skoolmunkee, though I'll point out that Lin Chen and his wife are not the first Chinese we've seen in Columbia. There was at least one prisoner in one of the police stations we visited who told us to piss off and called us Gwailo. And I suspect there's been at least one other, although always in the background of things. Chinese labor, like that of Blacks or Irish, would have some value to Columbia, particularly skilled labor. After all, one group of subhuman wage-slaves who must be watched is as good as another in most of Columbia's eyes, I would guess.

Oh, and Re: Columbia the female angel, most angels are indeed portrayed as male (or occasionally as androgynes), but the one big exception seems to be for national-personifications. The classical Greek portrayals of Europa, Asia, and Africa as three women (partly buttressed by Herodotus' analysis of the Trojan and Persian wars having as root cause an endless cycle of intercontinental wife-stealing), made it through to the renaissance and the growth of national identities. As such, many nations portray their national angelic figures as those representing "The Motherland". For example, the French incarnation of "Liberté", which was adopted by the US as "Lady Liberty", (see the Statue of), or the Russian "Mother Russia", as displayed today in the Stalingrad Monument. Guys like Uncle Sam, while national emblems, really represent the body politic as opposed to the "spirit of the nation", which more commonly appears as a woman in most of the cases I'm aware of. John Bull, for instance, is a man, but Britannia is a woman, generally girded as Athena, watching over her people in benevolence. This would appear to be the image that Comstock has lifted for Columbia, and turning her into a literal angel is only a small change.

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Kangra
May 7, 2012

America was personified as the female figure Columbia well before Comstock came around. (Something particularly interesting in that article is a cartoon depicting Columbia protecting a Chinese worker in 1871).

citybeatnik
Mar 1, 2013

You Are All
WEIRDOS




skoolmunkee posted:

It's a shame Sundowner didn't wait long enough to listen to the auction at the beginning of Finkton. I wouldn't describe it as "pawning off their hours"- if you listen to it, iirc, what's happening is that the auctioneer is actually taking lower and lower bids from workers- where the workers are underbidding each other just to get any kind of pay. I think they're saying who will do the job in the shortest amount of time.
Having played the game, that's exactly what they're doing - bidding on who can do the backbreaking job of hauling that thing in the shortest amount of time, ergo for less pay. They get more desperate as things go along if I recall properly.

skoolmunkee
Jun 27, 2004

Tell your friends we're coming for them

Kangra posted:

America was personified as the female figure Columbia well before Comstock came around. (Something particularly interesting in that article is a cartoon depicting Columbia protecting a Chinese worker in 1871).

Yep! I just wanted to explain to anyone who didn't know that comstock didn't invent her. what comstock did was start referring to her not as a national figure but as a religious one. As GenHavok said, not a huge change but an important one, one which goes along with the founding fathers worship.

(Thanks for the edit btw)

SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.

Kangra posted:

Possibly there is something meaningful about Columbia avoiding the West Coast and having an apparently important role in the Boxer Rebellion that is specifically related to their (or Comstock's) views on the Chinese. It does seem odd that even in Finkton Lin would be advertising with his name like that, though. You'd expect him to just say 'Gunsmith' but perhaps he's using it to filter out people who don't want to deal with him because he's Chinese.

Lin is probably an idealist who thought his work would count for more then his last name in columbia. The Bioshock series are filled with people coming to a place they think will give them a fair shake but doesn't.

Podima
Nov 4, 2009

by Fluffdaddy

citybeatnik posted:

Having played the game, that's exactly what they're doing - bidding on who can do the backbreaking job of hauling that thing in the shortest amount of time, ergo for less pay. They get more desperate as things go along if I recall properly.

Yes - to the point that a fight breaks out when someone gets underbid, and after one of the dudes beats the other one unconscious, Fink praises him and gives him the job. "Now that's the kind of go-getter attitude Finkton workers should have!"

Sundowner
Apr 10, 2013

not even
jeff goldblum could save me from this nightmare
I was convinced in my head that I showed that off, so much that I didn't even consider checking while editing. God drat it this is why I wish game developers would stop horsing around and give us poor Let's Players a proper save system, so I can go back and fix my incompetencies.

I guess that is at the start of a new area so I might get lucky by loading chapters to get there, there isn't a whole lot to replay if I do go back.

Sundowner
Apr 10, 2013

not even
jeff goldblum could save me from this nightmare

Heading in to the Good Time Club, Booker and Elizabeth attempt to seek out Chen Lin but not before Fink has an offer for Booker to consider.

resurgam40
Jul 22, 2007

Battler, the literal stupidest man on earth. Why are you even here, Battler, why did you come back to this place so you could fuck literally everything up?
Ah, yes. This is the update that for good and all proves that this is, very much, a Bioshock game. I look forward to seeing the reactions.

One thing that leaped out at me is the audio by Comstock on cruelty. It illustrates a point that a lot of religious fundamentalists have no trouble balancing in their minds a god that is all loving and a god that would, say, ask a faithful man to slaughter his son. The god of the Old Testament and the New one seem to me to be almost two separate beings: the jealous and cruel monster in the former, and the compassionate one that Jesus Christ spoke of in the latter. That is likely no accident, since all of these texts were written by several people, probably over centuries, and it serves as an interesting study about shifting societal mores (the idea that bad things happen through judgement of the wicked/ trying to teach the right way to people emerging from the idea that poo poo happens because that's the way it is, to name but one). Consequently, the Bible contradicts itself every other book and chapter, and ol' Comstock here shows us a way to address those contradictions. He takes both bad and good, cruelty and kindness... the good for the righteous (himself), and the bad for the wicked (everyone else). In accepting the contradicting cruelty of the LORD, we absolve ourselves of all our cruelties and contradictions. And it is good, brother.

Penakoto
Aug 21, 2013

When I was playing the game for the first time, I had assumed the reason for the thimble finger was that (the?) Songbird bit it off or something.

Not sure why I thought that, maybe I read it at some point during the preview stage then forgot.

Spatula City
Oct 21, 2010

LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY YOU ARE WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING
ah. The people remembering their deaths in an alternate universe reminds me a lot of Fringe. Something similar happened in the show, where a town of people started going insane because they were merging with their alternate universe selves.
Also, I can't help but wonder if there's another Booker and Elizabeth in this reality. My guess would be this world's Booker is dead, and in it Elizabeth was never conceived, or died in childbirth, but who knows?

GenHavoc
Jul 19, 2006

Vive L'Empreur!
Vive La Surcouf!

  1. I don't know if this is worth worrying about or not, but I begin to wonder about the placement of these Kinetoscopes. Why would there be a special video-newsreel about the growing problems of poverty, panhandling, violence, and labor unrest in the entrance to a club in Finktown, especially one that portrays Fink himself as being unable to control the situation. You'd think Fink would want to cast himself as the benevolant all-father in perfect command of his labor force and protecting them from malcontents. Of course that also begs the question of why all the various Voxophones are wherever they are, but that way lies madness.

  2. So I know Fink is a turn-of-the-century Robber Baron (effectively), but if he's facing labor unrest, why would he throw a private army at Booker? Amusement? However valuable Booker is to his operations as a strikebreaker, surely he doesn't have enough men to casually throw them away like this. Perhaps these guys are all politically or socially unreliable and Fink's taking the opportunity to be rid of them. Or maybe he's just crazy.

  3. So Fink's brother is the reason for all the musical anachronisms we've been hearing. Oh god, does his brother run Columbia's RIAA? :stonk:

  4. I wonder who Vox Anarchist is supposed to be (from the wanted poster). Have we seen any such man yet? I suppose we wouldn't have, given that we just met Fitzroy in the first place.

  5. There are Hispanic names on the cellblock list along with Chen Lin. I don't believe we've seen any hispanics in Columbia yet, though given everything I seriously doubt their position is particularly exalted around here.

  6. This is less prediction and more observation, but I really like that Booker is open about the awful poo poo he no-doubt did as a Pinkerton whilst strikebreaking. After having already screwed up once by getting caught out in a lie regarding his intentions vis-a-vis Elizabeth, I like that he's forthcoming, even without being asked, about having done what he did. There's only so much "liar revealed" or "sudden buried past exposure" that I'm prepared to tolerate in an otherwise well-written work.

  7. As usual, Cpl. Vivian Monroe's voxophone is endlessly fascinating. For one thing, it reveals that she came to Finkton on her own volition, out of a desire (it sounds like) for honorable, military service. Yet more evidence of Columbia's rather nuanced policy towards women relative to the wider society perhaps, as she could not find a means of fulfilling that desire on the ground, but felt she could in the air.

    But why, if Slate disillusioned her as to Comstock's real policies, would she choose to go to work for Fink? It's possible that her notions of honor were (as Sherman would put it) "all moonshine". Or it's possible there's more to Fink than he's letting on?

    EDIT: I can't believe I missed the obvious implication. She could also not mean Fink at all. After all, her Voxophone was found in a hidden alcove within Chen Lin's store. Maybe she went to Finkton to try and hook up with the Vox?

  8. To play devil's advocate for a minute with Comstock's "cruelty" voxophone, he could mean a number of things by it, such that God was cruel to his children, and thus Comstock and the whites should be cruel to everyone else. But there's a sort of twisted implication therein. He mentions that "Cruelty can be instructive", which could be taken as meaning that the children of God were taught harsh lessons via the fall and the flood, and that his real intention is to "better" the other races by means of oppression and cruelty. This dovetails reasonably well with certain hyper-paternalistic colonial attitudes towards the subject peoples of the various European colonial empires at around the turn of the century. A more disciplinarian version of the "White Man's Burden", if you will. Akin to the Kulturkampf theories running about in Germany at the time, ones that would eventually inform another political movement you might have heard of...

  9. I couldn't make out what that spreadsheet-looking blackboard in Chen Lin's cell was supposed to be. Did anyone get a better look?

  10. Well, toss out all chances of Lutese and her sibling/husband/genderflipped clone having any sort of rational explanation behind them. But I believe this is the first positive confirmation we've gotten that we're actually dealing with alternate dimensions (albeit with heavy indications beforehand.

  11. Hrm. I was wondering if this other Columbia might be drastically different from the first, perhaps even where the Blacks are on top and the Whites kept in misery and squalor, but it appears there's a sort of conservation of momentum within these alternate Columbias. The only major change so far seems to be the quantity of prisoners in lockup and the fate of Chen Lin. So far.

  12. :stonk: Mother of God, it's like the guards, dead in one universe and alive in the other, are in some kind of quantum superposition between alive and dead (like the infusions I suppose). It looks highly unpleasant. But doesn't that mean that Chen Lin will be in the same?

    EDIT: Well at least he's handling it better than the guards...

  13. So in this world, Chen Lin's Brother-in-Law is Fink's head of security? But anti-miscegenation laws SHOULD have prohibited that, unless there's been a radical shift in Columbia's policies in this world.

    EDIT: Forgive me, I assumed that it was Fink's security chief who'd married Chen Lin's sister, not Chen Lin who married the security chief's. That still doesn't answer the miscegenation question however, though it does explain the shrine changeover.

    EDIT 2: Another thought occurs to me. We didn't see the original Mrs. Lin very close up, but the models look eerily similar. Maybe just a facet of the graphics engine and maybe my imagination. Or maybe this is Mrs. Lin in a more profound sense. Maybe in this world the same person is white instead of Asian?

  14. Was Elizabeth's sleeve always torn? Or does the game track progressive damage to the main characters' models?

Hirayuki
Mar 28, 2010


Is there an easy way to tell the Columbias apart, or are you truly stuck in this version of it with no hope of return? (Don't answer that spoilery last part.) I often have a hard time knowing where I am in parallel-world games.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Hirayuki posted:

Is there an easy way to tell the Columbias apart, or are you truly stuck in this version of it with no hope of return? (Don't answer that spoilery last part.) I often have a hard time knowing where I am in parallel-world games.

At various points the Games threads have exploded with people trying to make sense of things, so I'd recommend you just do like Mystery Science Theater. Repeat to yourself it's just a game and relax. They don't do any "slipped back into Universe A without noticing" kind of thing, it's all up front.

Hirayuki
Mar 28, 2010


Bruceski posted:

They don't do any "slipped back into Universe A without noticing" kind of thing, it's all up front.
Okay, cool. I was thinking more of Dragon Quest VI, where some people and places are in one world and some are in another, and you can switch between them at will; I invariably forget what's where and waste time wandering the wrong world or switching between them unnecessarily. I almost prefer it the Bioshock Infinite way.

Brainamp
Sep 4, 2011

More Zen than Zenyatta

Hirayuki posted:

and you can switch between them at will

You will know when they switch worlds. It's very obvious, ala this case.

Clocks
Oct 2, 2007



That was a super cool update. I like how they handled the alternate versions of dead people and their inability to cope with it. And we got to see the awesome couple that was talking about coins / perspective. I really like Booker and Elizabeth for their own reasons, of course, but those two are pretty cool characters. :3:

Ashsaber
Oct 24, 2010

Deploying Swordbreakers!
College Slice
Huh, in that last fight I think we were hearing a new message from Fink. I only caught the last bit, but it sounded slightly more friendly towards Chinese workers (in the sense that they are a necessary evil instead of totally expendable).

Thunk
Oct 15, 2007

Ashsaber posted:

Huh, in that last fight I think we were hearing a new message from Fink. I only caught the last bit, but it sounded slightly more friendly towards Chinese workers (in the sense that they are a necessary evil instead of totally expendable).

No, it's the same "be happy in your place" crap. He mentions the Chinese workers on the Transcontinental Railroad as one example of how minorities really do serve an important role, because somebody's got to supply the labor. The last sentence that got cut off in the fighting was "History was built on the backs of men like you".

A couple more things while I'm here:

That first empty cell with the hand cannon in it? If you let Slate live back in the museum, you'll find him there, and he's catatonic from having been worked over. You have a second chance to shoot him if you like.

If you're paying attention to the dates on the Voxophones, you'll see that Cpl. Monroe's, and quite a few of Comstock's, are a day old at most when you find them. We're watching character progression in real time as people respond to Booker and Elizabeth's actions. It's a neat reminder of how much more alive this place is than Rapture.

Albu-quirky Guy
Nov 8, 2005

Still stuck in the Land of Entrapment

GenHavoc posted:


Was Elizabeth's sleeve always torn? Or does the game track progressive damage to the main characters' models?


Elizabeth's sleeve was torn (and her neck scarf undone) since they landed on the beach after the Songbird attack.

Brainamp
Sep 4, 2011

More Zen than Zenyatta

Thunk posted:

If you're paying attention to the dates on the Voxophones, you'll see that Cpl. Monroe's, and quite a few of Comstock's, are a day old at most when you find them. We're watching character progression in real time as people respond to Booker and Elizabeth's actions. It's a neat reminder of how much more alive this place is than Rapture.

A similar example that I love is in Dead Space 1. One of the audio log series you can find is of another engineer who is basically one step ahead of you in the Ishimura until a certain level. Basically it makes it feel like you aren't alone in this gameworld.

And I can't recall exactly, but I remember some game in which you are walking down a corridor, hearing somebody talking into a recorder, but then you interrupt them and in their scramble to escape they drop it, letting you hear their dialogue again.

DukeofCA
Aug 18, 2011

I am shocked and appalled.

GenHavoc posted:


  1. So Fink's brother is the reason for all the musical anachronisms we've been hearing. Oh god, does his brother run Columbia's RIAA? :stonk:

    EDIT 2: Another thought occurs to me. We didn't see the original Mrs. Lin very close up, but the models look eerily similar. Maybe just a facet of the graphics engine and maybe my imagination. Or maybe this is Mrs. Lin in a more profound sense. Maybe in this world the same person is white instead of Asian?


The voxophone doesn't explicitly say that Fink's brother is the reason for the anachronisms, just that he's been hearing them for a while and clued his brother in.

The first time we meet Mrs. Lin, she's pretty clearly Asian, with her broken English and shrine to Buddha. Then they enter the alternate universe and she's a white lady.

Doctor_Blueninja
Oct 23, 2012

Just some guy with a college doctorate and a passing knowledge of what it means to be a ninja.

Albu-quirky Guy posted:

Elizabeth's sleeve was torn (and her neck scarf undone) since they landed on the beach after the Songbird attack.

Nah mate, her clothes get damaged between the point where she knocked Booker out and the time where he finds her again in Finkton.

Gruckles
Mar 11, 2013

DukeofCA posted:

The voxophone doesn't explicitly say that Fink's brother is the reason for the anachronisms, just that he's been hearing them for a while and clued his brother in.

I think the idea is that he hears the music from the tears, and then turns them into the olde timey versions on the beach, sung by the quartet, etc.

citybeatnik
Mar 1, 2013

You Are All
WEIRDOS




I'll admit, the further in to the game you go the stronger the "YOU DID IT" vibe becomes. Looking forward to how people with fresh eyes react to some of the stuff to come.

xenotrope
Apr 20, 2011

Gruckles posted:

I think the idea is that he hears the music from the tears, and then turns them into the olde timey versions on the beach, sung by the quartet, etc.

If he'd heard any dubstep, he'd have dismissed it as noise.

So far I'm loving the LP. I just caught wind of it this weekend so I've been marathoning the episodes to get up to speed this afternoon. I've never played the game, but I have a bunch of ideas on what it is all leading towards. I don't want to dabble in the area of spoilers, but I'm enjoying many of GenHavoc's wildly unsupported theories. The game seems to have put a great deal of significance into the first few minutes of gameplay, but I can't say for sure what exactly it all means. Reviewing the first episode of this LP, it seems that Booker doesn't fear God as much as he fears Elizabeth, but so far she only seems really dangerous when you put her near a wrench and tell her she can't go to Paris.

Albu-quirky Guy
Nov 8, 2005

Still stuck in the Land of Entrapment

Doctor_Blueninja posted:

Nah mate, her clothes get damaged between the point where she knocked Booker out and the time where he finds her again in Finkton.

Look what I get for trying to remember things more than two weeks in the past. You're right, her clothes were all messed up by the Finkton cops.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

Brainamp posted:


And I can't recall exactly, but I remember some game in which you are walking down a corridor, hearing somebody talking into a recorder, but then you interrupt them and in their scramble to escape they drop it, letting you hear their dialogue again.

Bioshock 2 does exactly this with Mark Meltzer. Poor bastard's just looking for his daughter, and he's one step ahead of Delta the whole way.

Arglebargle III
Feb 21, 2006

Great rendition of one of my favorite songs should coming up in the next video!

Brainamp
Sep 4, 2011

More Zen than Zenyatta

Green Intern posted:

Bioshock 2 does exactly this with Mark Meltzer. Poor bastard's just looking for his daughter, and he's one step ahead of Delta the whole way.

Explains why I remember it then. :v:

But yeah, when games have all these oddly dropped logs, something that connects them physically to you helps immensely.

DukeofCA
Aug 18, 2011

I am shocked and appalled.

Gruckles posted:

I think the idea is that he hears the music from the tears, and then turns them into the olde timey versions on the beach, sung by the quartet, etc.

Aaahh, if that's what he meant then yes, that makes much more sense.

supermikhail
Nov 17, 2012


"It's video games, Scully."
Video games?"
"He enlists the help of strangers to make his perfect video game. When he gets bored of an idea, he murders them and moves on to the next, learning nothing in the process."
"Hmm... interesting."
So why's it called Bioshock anyway?

Of course, firstly because it's part of a franchise, and when that started, the 'Bio' part was, I guess, from the genetic splicing in the first game, and the 'shock' was homage to the System Shock series, of which the first part is old and obscure, but since that's where it all began, the complete etymology must be lost in time. Sounds about right?

AJ_Impy
Jun 17, 2007

SWORD OF SMATTAS. CAN YOU NOT HEAR A WORLD CRY OUT FOR JUSTICE? WHEN WILL YOU DELIVER IT?
Yam Slacker
Wait a sec. Fink's brother?

Checks first video.

Yeah, 'Albert Fink presents' God only Knows. Very nice.

Brainamp
Sep 4, 2011

More Zen than Zenyatta

supermikhail posted:

So why's it called Bioshock anyway?

Of course, firstly because it's part of a franchise, and when that started, the 'Bio' part was, I guess, from the genetic splicing in the first game, and the 'shock' was homage to the System Shock series, of which the first part is old and obscure, but since that's where it all began, the complete etymology must be lost in time. Sounds about right?

The Bio part refers to the organic nature of many of the elements in the first game. The splicers, the ADAM, the plasmids, all that poo poo. The Shock is both a reference to the original System Shock games as well as referring to the dramatic, or shocking if you will, changes all that organic nature underwent in the game.

Or at least that's the explanation I've always heard.

mortons stork
Oct 13, 2012

supermikhail posted:

So why's it called Bioshock anyway?

I may be wrong, but I read that more as a tongue-in-cheek kind of thing, where it's an established pattern with Bioshock games that seem at first to go for some sort of socio-political commentary angle until about the halfway point, where they just take a wrong turn and dive off a cliff with crazy, moebius strip-worthy plot twisting and forget every theme they were previously covering.
EDIT: oh sorry, I thought you were addressing a person who previously said "this is why this a bioshock game".

Penakoto
Aug 21, 2013

Bio equals biological super powers, System equals technological super powers, Shock is the intensity of gaining or using those powers.

That's about as simple and straight forward an explanation as I can think of.

Remember when people thought Bio = Water and were confused why this game was still called Bioshock despite not having an underwater setting? Good times...

HGH
Dec 20, 2011
Well at the very least, it seems like Booker isn't dead in this universe, else we'd be having nosebleeds and going crazy. Unless being around Elizabeth has some kind of stabilizing effect of sorts?
Still, it'd be amusing to run into or see another Booker/Elizabeth pair running around. If Booker never went to Columbia in this world though, there'd be no reason for Comstock to hunt us down. I suppose we're considered escaped convicts right now, what with having come right out of a jail full of confiscated Vox stuff.

Speaking of which, you spent some time trying to look through the bars at a pool of yellow...stuff in the jail cells. What exactly was that? Piles of soiled clothes or piles of corpses?


GenHavoc posted:

    I wonder who Vox Anarchist is supposed to be (from the wanted poster). Have we seen any such man yet? I suppose we wouldn't have, given that we just met Fitzroy in the first place.
I'm not sure but he seems to resemble that one hunter person that was hired to track down Daizy Fitzroy? The one we found a Voxophone of in a room of corpses he presumable left behind? Can't remember his name though.

HGH fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Nov 6, 2013

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I don't know how this one is going to turn out, but the Bioshock twist also seems to involve an intentional tweaking of traditional gameplay. The original did it best how much of a role does the player actually have when the plot constrains them?, and the second one is a bit weaker what is the proper role of an NPC and I'm hoping this one does something similar.

As for the name itself, the original conception seemed to focus a bit more on the mutations and changes to the bodies of the splicers instead of just effectively giving them superpowers. I think it still makes sense, though.

And as long as we're talking about history, the concept of the audio diary filling out the story originates in System Shock and has carried through to all the games (and into others). In my opinion it has the best execution of the idea of arriving just after the recordings were made, too.

supermikhail
Nov 17, 2012


"It's video games, Scully."
Video games?"
"He enlists the help of strangers to make his perfect video game. When he gets bored of an idea, he murders them and moves on to the next, learning nothing in the process."
"Hmm... interesting."

mortons stork posted:

I may be wrong, but I read that more as a tongue-in-cheek kind of thing, where it's an established pattern with Bioshock games that seem at first to go for some sort of socio-political commentary angle until about the halfway point, where they just take a wrong turn and dive off a cliff with crazy, moebius strip-worthy plot twisting and forget every theme they were previously covering.
EDIT: oh sorry, I thought you were addressing a person who previously said "this is why this a bioshock game".

That makes sense. Almost the only plot-related thing I know about the original System Shock is that it had a major twist with Shodan. Although if my experience is any indication, these cool-sounding, non-transparent names usually have a million different considerations affect their choice.

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Pidmon
Mar 18, 2009

NO ONE risks painful injury on your GREEN SLIME GHOST POGO RIDE.

No one but YOU.
So, hang on a second. The only thing that seems to carry over for other characters in the game when switching from the Blue Columbia (based on the background icons of the native weapons, mind you) to the Red one, is if they died in Blue and are still alive in Red.

Red Fink had no idea who you were and didn't remember trying to set up a deal...

So why on earth would Red Daisy remember or care about a deal that Blue Daisy made to get a weapons shipment in exchange for giving back the First Lady? Why is Booker doing anything more with the gunsmith, other than pity for his half-dead state?

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