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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Otto Skorzeny posted:

It seems like Rogues and Rangers would complement each other pretty well. For instance:

1) Have the Ranger's Animal Companion engage the target (say a boss character). The target is now Flanked.
2) Have the Ranger use Wounding Shot on the target. The target is now Flanked and Hobbled.
3) Have the Rogue attack. They get their Sneak Attack bonus due to the Hobbling or the Flanking.
4) Since the target has two conditions, the Rogue gets an extra Deathblows bonus damage too.
This sort of stuff is by design, but it's not just the rogue/ranger that can take advantage of it. Much like 3E/3.5, a lot of characters can help a rogue set up sneak attacks or make them more effective (e.g. fighters can knock dudes Prone all over the place and lots of spells cause the Stunned or Weakened conditions). I really wanted rogues to be more self-sufficient, though. That's why they have a bunch of abilities to inflict the conditions that qualify for sneak attack.

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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Rangers have been a lot of things over a long span of time. Aragorn/1st Ed./2nd Ed./3.X/4E rangers can't all be reconciled, really. They went (in 1st Ed.) from being pretty narrowly defined and powerful to widely-defined and not-so-powerful -- and then back to narrowly-defined and powerful in 4E. Additionally, the IE games didn't do an outstanding job of portraying the RAW rangers, so people have the views on the class that they bring from those games.

I think the best thing for us to do is look into how applicable the rangers' abilities are to melee combat and go from there.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Grouchy Fish posted:

I noticed in the update that there will be more class skills than those listed. Any idea how many we should expect for each class, and will all classes have the same amount?
All classes have two skills they have a bonus in. The skill list is not particularly large, but we will probably use a weighted progression for them, so the bonus is significant but not as dramatic as the class/cross-class divide in 3.X.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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The advancement will probably be weighted, so dumping points into one skill is not particularly efficient, though it will give you the highest score possible. If you dabble in a bunch of stuff, you won't be dramatically behind the specialist. You'll be less likely to pass any threshold checks, but you also have higher skill scores on average.

All skills also have bonuses that apply even if you're not "unlocking" whatever "locks" stand in your way. If you have one character with 18 Mechanics and another with 10 Mechanics, the former is probably going to be picking more locks than the latter, but traps set by the latter still benefit from the 10 Mechanics.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Octo1 posted:

Wait... if magic implements can be used pretty much like weapons, and anyone can use them, does that mean I can sneak attack with a wand?
Yes, though wands are not super powerful, overall. They do have a fast attack rate.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Inspector Gesicht posted:

My biggest beef with PS:T and BG is that when choosing a spell to cast in battle, you don't get a tooltip saying what exactly the spell does,
When you highlight an ability or spell icon in PoE, you get a brief text description of what it does + the numbers to go with it.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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I have advocated coarser skill advancement, especially in games with a lot of characters, for several games. I think it usually works better and the investment feels more meaningful in a lot of CRPG environments.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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A true spiritual successor to a melee-oriented IE/2nd Ed. ranger would be a sub-par fighter. And yes, 3E/3.5 rangers both gain animal companions as a standard part of the class at 4th level.

In any case, most of the PoE ranger's abilities could also easily be modified to be used with melee weapons, which is what we're likely to do. Some of their abilities will likely stay ranged-only because they only make sense that way (like some of the fighter's only make sense as melee-only).

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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bathroom sounds posted:

the messy flexibility of 2nd ed. Dungeons & Dragons
I've been playing A/D&D for 28 years, 2nd Ed. for 11 of those, and this is the first time I've seen someone describe 2nd Ed. as flexible.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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pun pundit posted:

I don't think your class will shoehorn you into a specific personality or subplot, I think it's most likely that the reputation system or skills will do that if anything does. Rope kid, maybe you can comfirm/deny?
Class is one of the less frequent conditions for dialogue replies and it usually has to do with something very specific to how the class actually operates. For something having to do with the wilderness, hunting, etc., we typically check the Survival skill. Rangers get an inherent bonus in Survival but other classes are not restricted from taking points in it at all.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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bathroom sounds posted:

Mostly I just hate the concept of using an animal to do your fighting for you, and I don't see why abusing your pet bear is intrinsic to being a ranger, so
Abusing your animal companion = abusing the ranger in PoE. Animal companions have high DT, but damage they suffer is directly taken by the ranger as well. If it goes down, the ranger goes down. If it dies, the ranger dies. The animal companion does help hold targets in position while the ranger is fighting, but the larger advantage comes from the damage they can do when they are both targeting the same enemy. If you send the animal companion to hold off an ogre while the ranger takes out some scrubs on the other side of the screen, neither the AC or the ranger gain any advantage and they will both probably go down in short order.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Currently only with actual ranged weapons. The pike does have reach and is currently the only melee weapon with reach.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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I posted it much earlier in the thread, but rangers have changed a lot from 1st/2nd to 3.X to 4E. Their IE game implementations didn't always share a ton with their tabletop counterparts, so it's unlikely that the class could ever encompass everyone's ideal of a ranger.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Gyshall posted:

Serious post: do races have differing starting stats/traits aside from just reactions in the game world? Like +10 to starting survival skill?
Yeah, races all have modifiers to their attributes and some additional class-neutral bonuses.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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The standard-ish D&D class lineup has a glut of folks typically with melee weapons (or fists) individually pounding away HP on enemies using their own brand of Special Class Stuff: barbarians, fighters, monks, paladins, rangers, and rogues. If we did not pair rangers with animal companions, I still would have tried to pair animal companions (or something like it) with some class because it creates a much different dynamic to how the class operates. This is also why monks use Wounds to power abilities, ciphers use Focus instead of standard /encounter /rest spells, and why chanters have their own wacky wild mechanics. Rangers seem like the most appropriate fit for a creature companion. We could have said "actually barbarians have animal companions". I don't think it would have made the game inherently better and you'd have AC-loving ranger fans asking why their rangers can't get animal companions when barbarians do. Or, as some have pointed out, we could have not had animal companions at all. We'd still have AC-loving ranger fans asking where animal companions are. Of course we could also make animal companions optional, which would almost assuredly wind up making the class feel like a mushy soup of... something. I think that's the least appealing route of all.

We are making 11 classes for a broad audience. With every class update we do, someone is upset about how we are developing the classes. Sometimes their concerns can be addressed without fundamentally changing a lot about the class. Other times, we can't.

If you want Obsidian to make a classless skill-based game, I certainly won't object (especially if it's a historical game -- classless skill-based games are what I make and prefer to play on my own time), but those proposals always seem to go over like a lead balloon. The IE games were class- and level-based and I think most of the people who backed the game want classes. The trade-off is that there's no way for us to structure classes in a way that everyone likes. I have known that for as long as I've been working with class-based games.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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bathroom sounds posted:

Why didn't you go in the BG2 kits direction? Didn't seem like a good ROI for the dev time?
BG2 was built on BG and TotSC -- many years of code development and adapting a known and extensively codified ruleset. We're designing and implementing everything from scratch on a very short timeline. Talents will certainly help distinguish classes (probably a whole lot), but they're also a flexible pool for us to implement late in development. If we went with specific kits, we'd be on the hook for a huge amount of stuff.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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CottonWolf posted:

Presumably you'll be controlling the pet directly
Yes. You control animal companions directly and on area transitions they always appear immediately next to their ranger.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Unrelated, but Seth is redoing our reloads and firing animations right now and they are cool. The arbalests wouldn't have windlasses on them when you actually fire them and the firearm reloads are much faster/smoother than they would be in reality, but it's nice.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Lotish posted:

Maybe after the rousing success of the Kingdom Come kickstarter as a interest check in historical, explicitly unfantastical games, that attitude will start to change.
Thanks for reminding me about this project; I heard about it but never followed up on it. I really like both strict historical and historical fantasy settings.

I was really bummed when Black Chicken Studios' Ars Magica kickstarter burned out. I'm currently playing in one AM campaign (Normandy Tribunal) and running another (Rhine). I have some serious issues with some of the mechanics and book layouts, but it doesn't really matter. Mythic Europe is a cool setting and the Hermetic lore that's layered on top is really cool to explore.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Mordaedil posted:

Fallout New Vegas was more or less classless and skill based no?
Yes, and anyone who pitched a game in the spirit of Fallout would be expected (by most of its backers) to make it classless and skill based with levels, perks, traits, and SPECIAL. We deal with the same type of expectations on this project.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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We rolled for the 3.5 game we're playing at work because our DM loves rolling, but we did it all as a group. That experience, rolling as a group, is definitely more exciting than everyone sitting around and allocating points. He also does random rolls at the table for treasure that we find, which is also a lot of fun. Our characters are all over the place, balance-wise, but the ability scores are only a small element of that in the campaign.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Characters can/will level up at different times. Characters who have been added to "the roster" but aren't in the active party still gain a good chunk of XP. Having them go on adventures (off-screen) from the stronghold bumps that value up so they stay a little closer to everyone else.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Hand Row posted:

Will each class require the same amount of xp to level?
Yes.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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GreatGreen posted:

I have a question about casters in the game. We know that there will be your basic elementalist and arcanist type casters, just from the videos we've seen. However, how able will we be to create thematically "evil" type casters who concentrate mainly on things like drains, slow burn damage over time spells, and debuffs?
There are a number of drain-oriented wizard spells named for their inventor, Concelhaut, ranging from levels 1-3, and several other necro-ish spells at higher levels.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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AngryBooch posted:

Yes, I loving love it when spells are named after these egotistical wizards that researched them.
Maker-named spells make up about 1/3 to 1/4 of the wizard spell list. Concelhaut and Minoletta are the most prolific.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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DatonKallandor posted:

This might be too specific, but anything in the Death Knell style that rewards the caster for getting the killing blow with a temporary buffs? Doesn't even have to be a spell I guess could be something a different class does.
Not quite the same, but druids have a high-level spell called Garden of Life that creates small fonts of healing around the bodies of downed enemies.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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I have the same general opinion toward romances in our games that I have toward mounts in our games: I think both can certainly be great if you have the time and other resources to invest in them. If you try to take short cuts with them, they will be very bad and whatever time you spent implementing them will be wasted.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Ither posted:

ropekid, have you guys settled on what damage types PE will have?
Slash, pierce, crush, burn, freeze, corrode, and shock.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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DatonKallandor posted:

Are there weapons that slash, pierce and crush (or have multiple elements)? What happens when they encounter resistance to a single type of damage?
Some attacks do multiple damage types and they are resisted separately by the DT (DTs can have inherent strengths or weaknesses vs. damage types). However, some attacks (usually from weapons) have a "best of" damage type where they will do whatever damage type is least opposed by the target's armor. E.g., war hammers do pierce/crush. If the target's DT is lower against pierce, it does pierce damage. If the target's DT is lower against crush, it does crush damage. Swords (which are always assumed to be cut and thrust) do slash/pierce. In contrast, sabres only do slash damage, but they inflict DoTs every time they do damage.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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SurrealityCheck posted:

Are you going with sets of debuff types, or will each debuff be unique to itself?
We have a fairly big list of defined "afflictions" and the penalties they apply. I was more free-wheelin' with them early on but a defined list is a lot easier to work with and it makes it easier for players to recognize what's going on.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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AriadneThread posted:

So Godlike are 'blessed' at birth people, but I'm wondering, is that just humans are do the other sentient species also have their own variants? Or do Godlike end up the same basic humanoid shape regardless of parents?
Godlike can be born to parents of any race. When you create a godlike character, we plan to support selection of any racial "subtype".

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Arkeus posted:

A bit disappointed about the lack of stretch goals- does this mean Obsidian thinks it can do most of it without aditional funding from more backers, or will the game have a very limited numbers of outdoors areas?
I think we'll be good on the number of outdoor areas. We don't have BG-levels of wilderness, but I don't think many people wanted that.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Scorchy posted:

My problem with the Godlike is they're way too awesome looking, why would people play anything else
Some people don't like weirdos.

SurrealityCheck posted:

As a rough guideline, what are the tradeoffs for being a godlike?
They currently all have bonuses to their Dexterity and Resolve. Each subtype (Death, Nature, etc.) has a different passive bonus. They can't wear any headgear. Some people treat them with great reverence but others think they are gross and weird, so the reactions are kind of a wash, overall.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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SurrealityCheck posted:

Sweet. For reference, do base humans have any bonuses or are they zero penalty zero bonus?
Humans currently have a bonus to Might and Resolve and a passive ability called Fighting Spirit.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Irobot82 posted:

So what about earth related spells like earthquake or rock skin?
Rock-y damage spells are usually classified as Crush.

Lotish posted:

Does this mean that they can't wear anything in the helmet slot or they just don't get a graphic for when one is equipped? If they can't wear a helmet, is that not considered a significant loss, and everyone could go without helmets without concern?
They can't wear anything in their head slot. This is not necessarily a dramatic loss, but there are a few nice items that can go in that slot.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Cicero posted:

So if other races also get two stat bonuses and a passive ability, but Godlike can't wear headgear, from a minmax perspective it sounds like picking a Godlike leaves you worse off than a regular race?
Their passives are a little more spectacular than normalfolk.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Irobot82 posted:

Huh, it didn't even occur to me. I always thought of rock type spells as elemental and crush type as weapon damage not spell damage. So do other elemental type spells also have other damage types? Like and icicle spear type spell being ice and piercing?
Some spells are like that, yes.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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SoggyBobcat posted:

Is it possible to deal damage without it being attached to one of the attack types, like a "Damage Hit Points" spell?

Willpower is called Psyche in PoE.
All attacks require an attack roll of some sort, but a very small number of them ignore armor (usually very low damage).

We used to call it Psyche but that got switched. We're back to Fort/Ref/Will.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Ars Magica has a built-in aging system and it is both complicated and enjoyable within the context of that game. The only PC character death so far has been my Danish knight. He rapidly aged and died while living in a faerie regio. His friends/former comrades at the covenant are now raising his daughter. Due to how the game's systems work, it's entirely possible that she will be a playable character within the span of the campaign.

E: It's also a very simulationist game in many ways and not really comparable to a D&D/PoE-style game, IMO.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Feb 12, 2014

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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Just single slots, no weight, no Tetris. Each character has a limited number of slots and the rest can be offloaded into a general party stash. You can only withdraw from the stash at camps/inns/stores.

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