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maxwell.mu posted:I have a job offer and am wondering how to negotiate it. I already have a job (been at it for a few years), and would be fine staying where I am, but want to maximize my salary if possible. Due to lack of skills, I did a poor job of negotiating the offer for the job I have now. What I make now is not bad, but it's lower than where it should be given that my field is fairly competitive right now (software engineering and I live in Seattle), I think. I don't actually know for sure what a reasonable salary is for my position (I'm pretty new to this), but from looking around on glassdoor, what I make is lower than the low end listed and about 20k lower than the average. I know that numbers on there are not always accurate, but I think it gives you a general sense of where you should be at. I have a fairly crisp set of rules on this issue, that I think make sense, and that I lean on heavily whenever salary negotiation comes up: 1) Never tell a prospective employer what you make now. 2) NEVER TELL A PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER WHAT YOU MAKE NOW! 3) You can reject this opportunity and find another one. There's no reason to accept this one other than it being sufficiently appealing to you. 4) There's decent odds they will ask what you make, though if they don't that's a far better situation. By asking what you make now, they're anchoring your expectations to your present compensation. Your present compensation isn't good enough, which is why you're willing to look at them as a new potential employer. 5) What you'd like them to ask is "What is the price range you're looking at?" You should know the value you'd accept the job offer at on the spot. This is the salary number where you don't even need to think it over, you'll just take the job offer. 6) If they do ask "What do you make now?" say "Oh, you'd like to talk about salary? Let's start by discussing what I'd like to be making with you..." And go back to rule #4. 7) If you went to them (i.e. sent in a resume/contacted a friend who works there/otherwise initiated the hiring), you should at this point tell them your ideal offer. This puts the ball in your court and sets a stake where your negotiations will go no higher than, but you went to them. 8) If they came to you, you should insist that they make you an offer. This puts the ball in your court, and sets a stake where your negotiations will go no lower than. This is good, because you can negotiate up from this position reasonably. 9) Review rule #3. You can walk away. In many cases, you should walk away. If you go in willing to walk, and knowing what you want, then you'll be in a good position, maybe not with this opportunity, but for life in general. And if you hold fast to what you want, you'll eventually get it.
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Jan 21, 2014 15:32
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liz posted:I have an interview tomorrow and they've asked me to bring in my W-2 from the previous year. I've never been asked this before, but can you tell me why this is such a huge terrible thing? There's no reason for you to share this information with them. If they asked you for your Facebook username and password so they could log into your account, would you give it to them? Would you feel like it's creepy that they're asking for them? Information asymmetries are valuable to the person who holds the information; in your case knowing what you make now is valuable to you in negotiating your new salary. They're asking you to give that value up right away without any form of compensation in exchange. How many other ways will this employer ask you to give up value in your life without compensating you for it? If this is a job you're really enthusiastic about, or if you are presently unemployed, I guess you could go in with your W2s and see where it goes. Otherwise I would personally decline the interview, and I'd tell them specifically that their request for W2's was why I was declining the interview.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:03
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If you want to understand salary disclosure, you have to understand very few things to get the whole picture: Salary negotiation is a zero sum game. Every dollar you increase your salary is an ongoing liability for the rest of your tenure. Every dollar they decrease your salary is an ongoing savings for the rest of your tenure. You have opposing motivations; you want to maximize your salary, they want to minimize it. Asking about your present salary is an employer pursuing the opportunity to get a cheap employee. If they ask and you tell, then they've just gotten negotiating leverage for free! You have just made their goal, in direct opposition to yours, easier to achieve! If they ask and you don't tell, then they've lost almost nothing. There are few job candidates who will walk out on that question. Asking is therefore one of the single best opportunities for a company to save tens of thousands of dollars over your tenure with almost no risk. Any organization motivated by profit would be foolish not to take this easy opportunity, so that's why you get asked. Further, when you answer, you're telling people you're a bad negotiator. You don't understand the game that's being played at all, so they can walk all over you. You have shown that you'll also be susceptible to aggressive posturing, ultimatum style negotiations, and other techniques that will help this company pay you less. NEVER TELL A PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER WHAT YOU MAKE Saying that your present salary is private is fine. If you're going to get passed up over that, then you are getting out of involvement with a caustic organization. You should always feel free to say what you want to make. Always be aggressive; you'll never get to push past this number again with this employer.
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Feb 15, 2014 18:31
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EgonSpengler posted:You have a good argument, but what about this situation? This is a good demonstration of the BATNA principle Kalenn Istarion mentions earlier in the thread. When you communicate "I am not going to take a pay cut to come work for you", and your present salary, you're illustrating that if they fail to negotiate and come to your terms, you won't take the job with them. However, you should ask yourself some additional questions when you're in this situation: - Would other non-pay factors lead you to actually take a pay cut to work there? If so, then communicating your present salary has put a cap on the negotiation, which will end up between their initial offer and your present salary. You won't go any higher than what you're presently making. Why set the cap here, instead of at your ideal salary? - If they're looking to pay you under your present salary, what other ways are they going to be attempting to reduce costs? Will your coworkers all be people who are also paid under market? Will there be a reason they are all paid under market? - If there aren't non-pay factors motivating you to work there at a pay cut, what privileges your present pay as the amount you'll accept jobs at over an ideal number? Describe the ideal criteria, not a minimum standard, and see how close you can get them to that ideal. If they can't negotiate when presented with your ideal, then you should walk. This advice really applies mainly to people who are presently employed, but you really never gain anything by telling a potential employer what you make, and that's why you should never do it.
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Feb 24, 2014 17:01
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tiananman posted:From my experience, if you're ambivalent about a price, the hiring manager will overshoot by a little bit. I've been negotiating freelance contracts, and on the one contract where I refused to name a price, the manager offered me double my typical rate... When you can, get an employer to make the first offer. They see many more candidate employees than most employees see potential employers. If you're ambivalent about a position, go ahead and force them to make you an offer with a number, or walk. When they offer it gives you all kinds of advantages: - You've anchored the bottom end of the conversation at their opening offer. You'll only go up from here in negotiation. - If their offer is near your ideal YOU CAN CHOOSE TO BE DONE! "I'd like that very much." You're both happy, no negotiation required. - Their offer is almost certainly based on higher exposure to the labor market, and gives you concrete data about what you can reasonably expect to get offered from anyone. Even if you don't take this position, you've now got more pricing data about what your work is worth. - You can ask for the moon and then negotiate down from there and will not scare off many employers. An employer making a lowball offer runs a very real risk that they'll offend you from further discussion, and thus will be less greedy in their opening position. Keep in mind trying to force an offer from an employer instead of disclosing how much you want to make is a move that risks the employer walking too, so I really only think you should do it for positions you're fine losing out on.
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Feb 25, 2014 19:46
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oye como va posted:Definitely don't take the first offer. I just accepted an offer and I rejected their first proposal. I asked them for 15% more but was really looking for about 9% more - which is what I got. spwrozek posted:You already accepted the offer, it probably is not going to make you look good to try for more money. If your current employer matches and you back out at the new place you are really burning that bridge to the ground. I agree, you've overplayed your hand already. If you were going to give your present employer an opportunity to match the new offer, you should not have accepted this new offer. Also you basically get to play the "Match this other party's offer" card once per employer; after that they'll probably tell you to pound sand and go enjoy your new employer. There's a difference between being firm and being guarded in what you disclose during negotiation, and being duplicitous. Accepting an offer you might not actually take falls into the second camp. If you get a better counter offer from your present employer, and you accept it, you're burning a bridge with these new guys. They'd be the first people to talk to if in a month or three your present employer cuts you loose after making sure they have mitigated the risk of losing you. If you get a better counter offer and you don't accept it, you're now settling for something less than the best offer you have. Be honest, but be guarded. Good luck in whatever direction you choose; my advice is that any employer you have to put a gun to the head of to get compensated well is not worth staying at.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:18
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Transmogrifier posted:They aren't a charitable/NPO; it's a furniture store with several partners throughout the state and seems to be doing well. I get the feeling they are low balling me because of my lack of experience, not necessarily financial. I'll try submitting a counter offer, but if they can't even meet close to it, I will end up walking. I think working with these people will be an arduous experience for you and you have received a warning bell right up front. I suggest you tell them that your expectations are that the salary for entry level work in your industry is approximately $55k and that's what you're seeking. Not "around 55k". 55k. Do not accept a position with them for a penny less. Use this as an opportunity to practice saying no to people, to practice being firm in negotiations, and to understand that the world is full of malicious people who will take advantage of you given the chance. MAYBE you come out of it with a job that pays $55k a year, which can be nice, but I don't think you should even stop looking if you do. The way you're discussing your position in this thread; you don't sound very confident. They probably honed in on that. Entry level means exactly the position you're in; unproven in industry, but with strong evidence that you're appropriate to the work involved and relevant work experience and schooling. Which means you should be taking home that 55k. You're WAY ahead of the game compared to your peers though. Just taking the time to read up on negotiation, doing research into market pricing, and questioning if the salary you are offered is sufficient is more than many fresh grads do. You absolutely can earn more and should feel confident that with a little time and patience you can get it.
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Mar 5, 2014 17:13
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Transmogrifier posted:Nothing aside from family and friends. I'm single, no dependents. I'm not against relocating. For reference my very first development job (that I got totally screwed on, and wish I had known more about negotiation and had more aggression in my bones) paid $45k/year in 2003 with a B.S. in Computer Science and a couple of months interning at $10/hr. It can sting to walk on an income. But if the best they were getting to is 30K, you were never going to be viewed as anything other than a cost center, and never appreciated for your talents.
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Mar 5, 2014 19:52
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Doesn't hurt to wait for the second offer to see what kind of options that gives you. If it's better pay you have the option of accepting or using it to lever better pay out of the first firm. If it's not better pay, you still have the option of telling them you have a competitive offer and getting something in your initial target range would seal the deal. corkskroo posted:Also, you asked if it was too late to negotiate back to the salary you originally wanted. Not only is it not too late but this is actually the time to do it. You already have a job and you might have another offer coming, so you're in a position with a good amount of leverage. Confidently tell them that you're excited at the opportunity to work with them and are glad that they see you in their organization. Then tell them that your qualifications and backgrounds are worth a higher salary and that you want to see a number in your original range. As has been said time and again in this thread, it's your life, not theirs. Go for what you reasonably deserve. corkskroo and Kalenn are right on, it's only too late to negotiate when you hand in your resignation letter with your current employer. You're not coming across confident in this thread, and we're here to help you. When you're not confident while negotiating salary, a far more adversarial environment, you're painting a big target on your back. Remember: - You have a job. You don't need to take this one which is offering you a salary you know to be unsatisfactory and under what you merit. - This is not the only opportunity you'll get. You've already got another offer in the works! - You can say no. If they won't get to $95k, say no. This was the bottom of your range. Employers are not magic people who are allowed to make rules while you're not. You get to declare the rules of who hires you. You get to enforce them with absolute authority and no oversight. One of your rules is "$95k or no way!" Hold them to it!
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Mar 12, 2014 14:49
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Deegan posted:Question for you guys: You received an offer, which was then withdrawn. The claimed reason for the withdrawn offer was their acquisition. Company #1 gave you a promise to give you another offer. You now are looking at an objectively superior offer. If I describe your situation to you like this, is it even a question anymore? Put it this way: they gave you an offer, and then rescinded it. Now, after having an offer jerked out from under you, you have to rely on their word that they'll give you a new one. If you get an offer from #2, I think the only obligation you have is to inform company #1 of the new salary figure they need to match and to pick a date by when they need to match it.
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Mar 12, 2014 15:21
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The only thing I feel is critical to keep in mind with a deferred payoff in employment is to have a plan for what you will do if the payoff doesn't occur. An employer will always try and convince you to take a deferred payoff, e.g. "after 6 months we'll adjust your salary upwards if we like your work!" In my experience an offer like this is worth less than the paper it's written on. You should always have a Plan B. For the above, your Plan B might be: "Ok, I'll accept. But if they don't make good with the adjustment I'm going to get in touch with Other Employer and jump ship post haste." It's also crucial to use all available information you have to gauge the likelihood of the payoff becoming worthwhile. When I recently renegotiated my salary, my employer tried to lean on a nascent profit sharing plan as being a compensation factor I should consider when evaluating my compensation compared to the industry. I frankly retorted that this profit sharing plan had been discussed with no actual sharing for the past year. I had no evidence that it was going to materialize any time soon, and that it was quite frankly not worth anything as far as comparative compensation. Turns out I was right and the profit sharing plan has still not materialized 6 months later and was a total red herring of a discussion. I'm still with this employer because I stuck to my guns regarding my market value and they understood I was serious and made good with real compensation.
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Mar 19, 2014 14:37
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Trying to negotiate for more should always be something that you should feel comfortable doing. However, remember to never overplay your hand. Specifically: You don't have a target to go higher to. You don't have a valuation that you're trying to meet, you don't have any form of concrete goal in mind to get to. You used to, and they started off overshooting that. I cannot stress enough the importance in realizing when you've won. In light of the above it will be incredibly easy for you to come off as greedy and just trying to get more. You don't have a goal in sight, negotiating is just trying to see how much you can pump up what you're getting. Think about this. Right now I would suggest that your prior goal may be based on undervaluing yourself. You should correct your valuation with this new data, determine a new figure, and make it your new goal. Alternatively your valuation was accurate and you have found an opportunity that pays above market. If they pay above market and know they pay above market deliberately, that in itself is a good sign! If they know they pay above market, then they will probably not be inclined to wiggle much more with you. I think the most important thing you could do is have more data to inform your valuation. You certainly should understand that your stated goal is met and that you do not want to play hardball with this employer, thusly jeopardizing that goal. You very likely do not have a fully accurate valuation of your talents. I am inclined to believe this will be one of the very few times I will say something like this in this thread: You would not be foolish, XGuard86, to accept the offer you were granted without further negotiation. All that said, it never hurts to ask. 
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Mar 24, 2014 21:42
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Xguard86 posted:Thanks. My gf, of all people was like "they wouldn't go higher?" I told her that if I said they offered 75 and I got them to 80 would she be happy?She realized the point. I'm really glad I posted here and got the advice especially from Eisenhower because I could see myself having that reaction without the counsel to see a win and not over reach. Congratulations! That's an excellent way to describe your situation; sometimes it's so easy to get caught up in the process that you forget to look hard at the outcomes. corkskroo's got it 100% right, the general tenor of this thread will tend toward telling people that they should be aggressive, that's because the general tenor of salary negotiations is an adversarial encounter where the other party is trying to screw you. Sometimes you can start off with a good proposition that makes everyone happy, and in those cases it can often be an indicator that immaterial qualities will be good too.
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Mar 25, 2014 15:49
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Okay, so I'm at a place now that's badly underpaying me for my job. I make 60 percent of the median pay for a sales assisstant, and the thing is, I'm slumming it with this job anyway. I have a BA and did selling for two years, I basically took this job because I had been unemployed for 9 months and I needed something, anything, and they were all "yeah, you'll be promoted to a sales rep when one of them leaves". My 60 day review is coming up, and they'll be talking about a raise. Line something up so you can walk if they won't meet the market value. Don't make it about threatening, or loyalty, right or wrong. Make it about your time is worth something and you know that it's worth more than they're paying you. Tell them why you know that it's worth more than they're paying you, because you got an offer somewhere else. Then let them do as they will, and walk if they don't play ball. I've never seen an employee stock option plan that was worth anything significant. You might get a few thousandths of a percent ownership of a company that might be worth something at some point in time. But do you think the odds of that are good if they can't retain talent with proper compensation?
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Mar 27, 2014 16:03
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Fiedler posted:I have a strong preference for Company D, and the offer seems reasonable in comparison with the others, when adjusted for cost of living. I feel like I've won and would like to accept their offer, but I keep coming back to the thought that I should counter their offer, because the worst probable response would be having to hear the word no, right? And if I were to counter, what would be a reasonable amount? Their offered base salary plus, say, 8k? Dwight Eisenhower posted:I cannot stress enough the importance in realizing when you've won. Dude everyone above me is right. That's a pretty large equity grant in my experience, with bolstering equity over time. It's a 50+% pay raise over your current salary. They want you. Compared to the market you've sampled, they're paying 11% more than the next highest data point you have in salary alone.
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Mar 27, 2014 21:02
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Ethanfr0me posted:Since I have a negotiation interview scheduled, should I wait until then to fire back or email them a counter offer? I've heard that it might be easier to gauge their reaction / negotiate in person rather than start the conversation via email when the purpose of the forthcoming interview is to discuss salary. If they won't at least match your present salary then you probably can save you and them the trouble of in person negotiation. Go ahead and email them back with what you want. If they totally balk you can save yourself time.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:24
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Ethanfr0me posted:I sent in my counter offer of $52,000 (up from their offer of $36,000), and they responded saying "that range is acceptable taking into account the total compensation in regards to healthcare benefits" So now i'm going to go in and hammer out the details. They are offering basic BCBS PPO and Delta PPO coverage, which looks like they probably spend $250 a month total for both in Northern California, or about $3k per year (correct me if i'm way off.) The minimum salary i'd be willing to except is around $46k, currently i'm making $50 but I would save around $3500 in annual commute costs since the new company is 2 blocks away from my house. They are also offering lunch 3x a week (another 1k or more), and the culture is so much better than my current company (i'd also be working about 5 hrs less each week which is awesome). All those things have a real value, so i'm going to stick with $46k as my absolute minimum and only as a last resort. I meet with them in person early next week. Good to hear you set a firm point, that they'll work with it, and that you've got your opening and threshold numbers worked out. Stick to your guns, be fair, and be ready to win. Good luck!
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Mar 29, 2014 03:10
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Ethanfr0me posted:First, I read 60 seconds and you're hired, which is a great book for anyone going to an interview, negotiating, etc. It helped me especially because it shows you how to distill your talking points into a "60 second sell," which is a great method for people (like me) who tend to ramble during the interview process. It basically talks about having 5 key points illustrating your strengths tailored to each job, and when you are asked a question, to use one or all of the points to succinctly answer the question in a memorable way, because honestly, most of what is said in an interview is forgotten by both parties immediately afterwards. This is awesome, you are awesome, this thread is awesome. Congratulations!
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Apr 2, 2014 17:13
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devmd01 posted:They finally got back to me, $1k under what I make now but i'm coming way ahead with benefits/matching, and it's a good step up in my career. Wooooo! It's great that everyone who checks in on this thread so far ends up doing well by aggressively negotiating. I'm sure in time it will end up with a total sob story, but it says a lot about how good your probabilities of success are with the track record we've collectively seen thus far.
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Apr 30, 2014 16:30
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Kobayashi posted:Eh, it sounds like you're making the same mistake all over again. As others have said, you should really be willing to leave if you get another offer. If you're going to go through all the trouble of find a new position that you'll be happy in, why not just find a new position that you'll be happy in? If I were you, and I really was critical to the five year plan, I'd have an honest conversation about how much that is worth to them. Then, if it doesn't work out, find a new position. Agreed, you don't have to find another job prior to discussing your salary if you never have in the past. However, you do need another job if you're going to demand a higher salary. And as Kalenn pointed out, you absolutely need to be willing to accept it. I wouldn't go so far as to say if you look and you find something better, leave without an opportunity to match, that's really on a case by case basis. If you enjoy your work aside from your compensation, there's something to be said for the devil you know. And if the devil you know will match another offer, it's significantly less risk than jumping ship to a potentially caustic environment. But if your employer makes you hate life then yeah, get something better and don't look back.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:29
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Kalenn Istarion posted:There's nothing wrong with it, but you'll have significantly better leverage if you have an alternative. In his case is say the best strategy would be to get the other offer, then with the offer in your back pocket go in and negotiate in good faith without bringing it up, unless they prove to be intractable at which point you can make the legitimate treat that you'll leave. You don't even need to ever show them the competing offer, just tell then they'll need to get to a salary of $X. Of course you need to keep the tone professional but that's the key message to get across. This. The competing offer isn't just a way to bully your way into getting what you want. It also: - Gives you realistic pricing data. Maybe what you're asking for is more than anyone is willing to pay. Or maybe you're asking for something entirely realistic. - Gives you confidence that you should make at least the competing offer. Negotiating confidently for some outcome comes through in everything you say and do, and makes the other party more likely to accept your position. Even without mentioning the offer. - Gives you a legitimate point of leverage if an employer won't agree to your terms. Not only do you think that you're worth more, but someone else does too, and you have no reason to be compelled to stay with the inferior compensation. - Can be presented cooperatively: "I like working here, but you don't pay me what the market is willing to. I'd like to stay here, but I can't pass up $(5,10,15,30),000 every year to continue doing so." And then finally it does give you a legitimate alternative if you can't come to an agreement.
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May 1, 2014 17:01
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Sarcasmatron posted:My personal experience is that the counter -- which I accepted -- moved my career into a much better place with that employer. I ended up staying at that particular job for 4 years after they countered, and got regular, significant raises and promotions in each one of those four ears. My personal experience is that I got a competing offer, demanded a match from my present employer on the basis of two facts: 1) I can make that much money. 2) If I leave to make that much money, they'll lose all the income they get from billing my time. I got $5k more than the competing offer.
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May 2, 2014 16:43
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Earth posted:When do I negotiate? The amount was verbally said, but the paperwork of the offer hasn't shown up yet. There was an email requesting information for putting the offer together, do I negotiate in that or do I wait for the official offer? You want to discuss your counter offer before they offer something in writing. Discussing money during the first interview is appropriate and makes a great deal of sense. You are trading your time for the company's money, and the company is banking on making more from your time than they're paying you. If what they want to pay for your time is too low, or what you want to be paid for your time is too high, then it's best for you both to figure that out right away and go look at other opportunities. Likewise, they aren't bringing you down, they want you to identify what unique qualities you bring to the table. Maybe you're just like everyone else interviewing for that position and utterly replaceable by any of the other candidates. But if you're not, this is an opportunity to describe what unique values you offer that other candidates don't.
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May 13, 2014 14:27
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Xandu posted:That always makes me wonder about the reverse. When an employer gives me a range for the position (before an offer, during the interview stage), can I expect to be able to negotiate to the top of that range, or are they going to try to stick with the low-to-mid part of the range? When they give a range they're trying to box you between two numbers that they're happy paying either one of. If you're ignorant but confident, they can offer you the high end of the range and you'll think you did really well, because they defined the scale and then put you at the top of it! If you're ignorant and self-conscious, you may accept something near the bottom of the range. If they're trying to compete on salary, they won't give a range. They'll make a low bid and hope to anchor the negotiations there and will hope you don't pull it higher. Also Kalenn's right as usual in this thread, do not eagerly bring up a salary in a first interview. If I got through an entire first round interview, and I felt that the interview was going well (I liked them and they liked me), and I was serious about potentially accepting the job, and we had not previously discussed salary, and they asked me if I had any questions, I would ask what kind of compensation they offer for the position. Dwight Eisenhower fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:19
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Uranium 235 posted:What would I do, just ask him for a short meeting and go deliver my pitch? I saw some people advising not to mention another offer if I have one, but to keep it in my back pocket and just use it as a confidence booster. If he says no, or doesn't offer enough, do I then tell him about the offer, or do I just say 'thanks for your time' and then take the other job? You have to be firm within your own tolerances of how much you want to stay weighed vs. how much you want more money. Ask for a meeting to review your compensation, and tell him its important. You should get some time quickly that way. Tell him what you think you're worth and that you'd like to make that much. Start the discussion based on your merit and your work situation. If he balks, and you're ready to take it, bring up the competing offer. Communicate that you'd like to stay but need to do what makes the most financial sense. Then the ball's out of your court. If they deal you stay, if not, you walk. But if you're about to leave for a better offer you lose absolutely nothing by saying to your present employer that they need to match it or you'll leave.
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May 21, 2014 15:12
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meanieface posted:Just verbally accepted an offer for significantly more than I was willing to accept, better hours, better benefits, better everything. Even the travel time to work will be better.    Getting offers at your target is awesome!
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May 27, 2014 19:22
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You might have more leverage than you realize as well. If they have laid down requirements and are talking to people who fall slightly short of them, then they may be having difficulty finding people who meet the requirements they've stipulated. At the end of the day you either have the skillset they need for the senior position or you don't. If they want to hire you to that position, you have the skillset, and you can safely negotiate on pay and other compensation. But don't forget the other rule of this thread: Know when you've won. If you want the senior title and $75k, do not get too avaricious if you end up getting them.
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May 30, 2014 15:42
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Unseen posted:I'm a software engineer working at a defence contractor. The industry has begun to contract and we've had multiple rounds of layoffs. On top of that we just lost a huge contract so the future is even more bleak. I'm young and cheap so chances are I won't get laid off any time soon. However there's no exciting work now or in the future and I'm bored. I make 68k and have about 3 years software experience. I wouldn't take a pay cut just to hop industries if that was my first attempt to jump rails. Also you have nothing to gain by disclosing your present salary. You can say that 68k is your floor and you won't accept anything lower and have the same negotiating position as saying 68k is your present salary, but you won't be giving them the knowledge that they're now matching your present compensation. I would thank them for their time and continue looking for other exit paths out of defense. You have good odds of getting out of that industry and of increasing your compensation. Unless you've interviewed with several other opportunities and are not getting offers out of it, I think you are too eagerly taking a pay cut. swenblack posted:I'm in defense, and I wish I had gone into med tech instead, FWIW. The future certainly is brighter there, particularly with the current trajectory of defense spending. You may be better off taking a pay cut to work an industry with better growth prospects, but I don't think you're at that point yet. You're in a very strong negotiating position. By upping their original offer, they've signaled how much they want you. Do they know your current salary? This might be a good opportunity to share it with them and indicate you need to make a lateral move salary-wise. You may or may not be successful in getting a better offer, but given their investment in you already, I'd guess it's likely. Good luck! I think your advice about negotiating tends to be more harmful than helpful when applied in the broader economy. Maybe it works well in defense contracting, but overall the positions you have consistently advocated tend toward these behaviors: 1) Be deferential to authority, treating employers as authorities. Do not engage employers as equals in an economic transaction. 2) Be overly open and honest, even in the case of significant pre-existing information asymmetries. 3) Eagerly accept opportunities as you may not get another one. These behaviors may minimize risk, but they also minimize rewards and are only dominant strategies in games where opportunities are scarce. The anecdotal experiences of the majority of this thread conflicts with the theory that your recommended behavior is optimal. Further, if the behavior you recommend mirrors your own behavior, you may have the opportunity to reap considerably greater economic rewards by changing your behavior.
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Jun 5, 2014 15:43
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swenblack posted:I don't agree with this at all. I strongly object to all three characterizations, and have absolutely no idea how you came up with them. I strongly advocate negotiating with decision makers on a peer basis rather than intermediaries. I strongly and repeatedly have advocated mitigating information asymmetries rather than volunteering information. Furthermore, I only suggest accepting opportunities if you are completely unwilling to accept the worst possible outcome in opening negotiations. It's odd that you'd quote me advising someone to press the issue further negotiating for more pay and then make those points. I'm honestly confused. You're right, and I'm a crazy person.  I am sorry.I must have confused you with a different poster. I really strongly disagree with your recent posts regarding TheSpartacus' situation, and I disagree with your recommendation that Unseen disclose his salary. But after reviewing posts in this thread I was being a total dickbag and you don't deserve any dickbaggery. I do take a one sided approach in this and the raise megathread, and there is a simple reason for that. Anyone who's asking for advice in a negotiating megathread is going to be most helped by being urged on toward confident and aggressive attitudes and behavior. More than half of effective negotiating has nothing to do with reality, and everything to do with presented attitude. Being ready to ask for more, knowing that you can pursue other opportunities, and being very stingy in revealing any amount of your hand all play into that.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:48
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swenblack posted:I'm certainly more selectively aggressive than you are. As for Unseen's situation, I assessed that he's at in impasse, given that he's aggressively negotiated and gotten counteroffers, but they're unwilling to meet his demands. Revealing that his BATNA is better than the proposed settlement is a textbook way to restart negotiations, and gives him a viable third option for consideration in addition to accepting the deal or walking away. If I decided I'd accept the job if they matched my current salary, I'd share my BATNA to demonstrate resolve as an intermediary step to walking away. I take a slightly different tack than you on information. I believe it's a tool to be used when appropriate, rather than a treasure to guarded. I agree it's a great tool, e.g. I have an offer in hand from another employer for $X. Match $X or I will take that other offer. I don't think one should ever lead with that move, but it's a wonderful forcing function when a less adversarial negotiation fails to achieve your desired outcome. To some extent one can argue disclosing your present salary is just an isomorph of the competing offer disclosure, and I imagine that's in the vicinity of where your reasoning lies. However there is a significant amount of institutionalized technique in employer salary negotiation pertaining to anchoring expectations around "present salary". By never disclosing your present salary, you undercut this entire toolbox and render it meaningless. Ultimately Unseen is at an impasse with this prospective employer, which is when ultimatums start to become appropriate, and the two ultimatums to choose from are: $68k is my floor, pay me that, or we're done. $68k is my present salary, pay me that, or we're done. The former prevents salary anchoring, and is an aggressive and competent negotiating posture. It leaves some room for doubt in his resolve to actually walk. The latter lends more credence to the claim that Unseen will walk. It also opens the door to salary anchoring. Right now that may be moot, because if met they're already stretching their budget for the position, and if not the entire negotiation is over. After this we'd have to get into highly improbable scenarios to start picking between the two.
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Jun 6, 2014 13:56
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Not Grover posted:Thanks so much for the replies. I sent off an email last night in the suggested format, and this morning got back I wouldn't hesitate to counter with $13/hr; it's good to talk about comparable employment opportunities and that you're not expecting the same hourly rate due to the different environment. Keep the discussion on the work and away from personal stuff, e.g. I need more money to get into a fancy dan apartment. If they pull the offer over $2/hr after low balling you that might be a good indicator that they just did you a favor. If you do take the job you have every right to keep looking, to leverage other potential employers for pay raises, and to be fairly ruthless in pursuing your own interests.
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Jun 17, 2014 18:52
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 Also don't confuse hourly work with salaried work. If you're hourly you may have a hard cap on hours/week that you can work, your work will be tracked on hourly performance, and you typically get fewer bennies and no pto. Your compensation is on an hourly basis. Salaried work is generally compensated on an annual basis, may include exemption from overtime, and often includes vastly better benefits. The manager's email made it sound like they're looking at a temp to hire; you work hourly for a probationary period and then if they want to pull the trigger you'd get hired full time with an annual basis for compensation. If that's the case, you have another milestone for negotiation to join a time based one (90 days) and credential based (licensing and certification)
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Jun 18, 2014 17:39
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Ghostnuke posted:I had a phone interview recently where the guy straight out asked me how much I was making at my current job. My first instinct was to say "gently caress you, how much do YOU make?", but just as I managed to suppress that urge I just blurted out how much I actually make. You didn't get lucky at all, you messed up one of the few things you have absolute control over. "This job pays significantly more" does not give you a concrete figure. If the hiring budget is for $20k over your current salary and you've disclosed your present salary, $5k is "significantly more" than you make now, but is $15k lower than they were willing to pay. This is where the guy earns his money. Now if you do get an offer, you've got an uphill battle to fight if you want to negotiate that offer up, because they'll be trotting out your current salary and the improvement you're getting every time you try to nudge it up. That's not to say that you should despair, but you do have to grow a bigger spine and actually act consistent with the advice you already know from reading this thread. Come up with a target for this position; the best case would be if you hadn't disclosed a number and had instead managed to get them to offer up what they're looking to hire at, but now imagine the most generous "significantly more" value you could realistically come up with, and then tack 5% on top of that. NEVER DISCUSS YOUR PRESENT SALARY AGAIN. This doesn't just mean don't say the number again. It means never discuss it. When you say what you want to make and they try to anchor a lower offer based on your present salary, you need to become deaf. Discuss your merits at the position, discuss comparable salaries, do not discuss your present salary. BE READY TO WALK. If you aren't ready to walk they're ultimately going to wear you down until you're ready to accept whatever they're offering. It's not hard, but if you can't actually adhere to the few fundamental rules that we re-iterate over and over in this thread, you're not gonna end up much better off than either of the dudes in your avatar.
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Jun 20, 2014 18:28
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Hollis Brown posted:It's going to be in Schenectady. I am sick to death of apartments noise and want a garage for the winter so I am looking at more expensive options like a rental house. You'll do plenty fine on $68k there. You won't be stuck only making $68k the entire time. Put several generous line items in your budget for keeping warm. You have no clue what you're in for from Texas. You are in a situation where renegotiation is a bad idea as everyone else has told you, and that's not a bad starting salary for Upstate New York after getting an MS.
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Jun 30, 2014 13:47
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Komputernauta posted:I just got a job offer. They are offering 28000GBP. I'm gonna ask for something like 32k. The job was advertised as permanent, but in the offer email they said: FrozenVent posted:Everything's possible, what it means is that they only guarantee your employment for 12 months. Specifically, they're trying to get contractor work and liability at a full time salary rate. If you've got a contract for 12 months, then you have more risk in the case that at the end of 12 months you're out of work. You should charge them for that risk. Ask for more money, and tell them you're willing to renegotiate for a lower figure if they're willing to bring you on as a FTE.
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Jul 3, 2014 17:43
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FrozenVent posted:Yep, you're dealing with an idiot. QFT Also you failed to seize on an opportunity to wield good negotiating posture. Your posture will have significant consequences on how much the party you are negotiating with flexes. Consider the pressure the HR manager feels between: "That offer is unacceptable, and you are unwilling to negotiate. Thank you for your time." vs "Please send me the full details of what you are offering in writing."
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Jul 29, 2014 14:47
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Appachai posted:Just an update: I talked to the COO on the phone about the offer. She said that due to the corporate guidelines she couldn't change the salary, but she had some leeway in other areas. She gave me a 10K signing bonus. I think you guys are right about not negotiating with HR. The HR person probably didn't have the authority to change anything. So in your first year your compensation is $5k under the median of the market, and $20k under the top end. In every year after that your (agreed upon, expected) compensation is $15k under the median of the market, and $30k under the top end. Are you unemployed, or really hate where you work?
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Jul 31, 2014 16:31
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Not Grover posted:Hi thread, I am back again. To recap, I am a newly graduated veterinary technician who is currently unlicensed, but has passed his boards and will be licensed in a couple of weeks once paperwork goes through. I just started a job at an emergency clinic in June, and have had feelers out for day practice opportunities in case I didn't like nights. I just got through a series of interviews at a day practice and they offered me a job. I'd like to make the switch because schedule wise it's better for my family, and I do like the clinic overall. The problem is that they've offered me the same amount that I make now, before I am licensed, which means after my current job gives me an increase for becoming licensed (which will amount to about 4k/year), I would be taking a pay cut. How can I most tactfully say that I would love to take them up on the opportunity to work there, but I can't justify taking a pay cut to do it? They offered me the job over the phone two hours after my working interview ended today, and I said that I was very happy to hear that they wanted to offer me the position, and asked them to email me the details so that I could have a chance to look things over and make a decision. They gave me until Monday to decide. I agree with swenblack and Kalenn. Ask for 6k/year more, then be willing to walk it back to 4k/year more. You're not collecting a premium for working an emergency shift based on comps with your peers, so don't take a pay cut to work a non-emergency shift. If they won't get to comparable compensation for you post-licensing, stay in your current gig and keep looking. Also remember that once you're licensed your attractiveness to prospective employers shoots up big time, and it seems you do well interviewing already. Stuff in writing is always way more of a sure thing than stuff a prospective employee assures you will be in writing "any day now, just wait a bit".
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Aug 18, 2014 14:50
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Not Grover posted:Well, to be perfectly honest, it didn't go as well as I'd have liked it to. I sent back an email asking for something closer to (+8k), and they called me, put me on speaker with the hospital and office administrators, and started negotiating. Frankly, I choked a little bit. They balked at my high end, and I would have been surprised if they hadn't, but if I were more experienced and better on the spot, I could have gotten them to (+4-5k) I think. As it is, they offered (+2k) with verbal promises of an increase after 90 days based on some nebulous criteria (how well I was "living the culture" of the practice?). and I elected to stay where I am and resume searching after licensure if I still want day shift or don't feel adequately compensated. So at the least, this was a valuable experience for me in learning/dealing with negotiations, and it was a big confidence boost on top of that to have gotten the offer. Thanks again for all of your replies, it's really helped a lot to have some guidance in an area where I've had minimal experience. Actually being able to walk away is the most useful tool in negotiating you can have. No amount of experience, charisma, or persuasiveness will get an offer above what an employer sets as a limit at the outset, so you'll always have times when you need to agree that you can't find a mutually agreeable arrangement. And that's fine. There are only two losing moves: not continuing to look, and taking an offer that puts you in a worse position. You haven't done either.
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Aug 21, 2014 14:30
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Even if I have a higher-paying offer from another firm, I don't want to come off as cocky to a potential employer. Asking for a match isn't cocky, and to the extent you can glean intangible qualities of employers while interviewing, demanding more from an employer with worse intangibles is entirely appropriate. e.g. Employer A and B both want you to do the same work, A expects a suit & tie every day, B is filled with people walking around in t-shirt and shorts. If you prefer to wear a t-shirt and shorts, A should pay you more than B. As a recent grad you probably can't fire up a bidding war, but if you can, certainly don't stop it. You'll have to deliver and do a good job, but you're more likely to be valued and treated well if getting you to work there takes some effort from the employer.
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Aug 22, 2014 18:16
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