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MickeyFinn posted:As a warning to people reading this thread: I did not negotiate my current job because it was the only job offer I got out of grad school and now I'm doing a job that I really like but doesn't pay nearly enough. The business plan (what passes for one around here) depends on me being here in 5 years, so I know they want to keep me. But I want to go in to salary negotiations here with another offer, so I'm currently looking for another job that I would like doing, just so I can negotiate for better pay at the one I am currently doing. Moral of the story is that I have to land two jobs because I did not negotiate for the first. Eh, it sounds like you're making the same mistake all over again. As others have said, you should really be willing to leave if you get another offer. If you're going to go through all the trouble of find a new position that you'll be happy in, why not just find a new position that you'll be happy in? If I were you, and I really was critical to the five year plan, I'd have an honest conversation about how much that is worth to them. Then, if it doesn't work out, find a new position. E: Plus, you could get a raise now, rather than waiting for however long it takes you to line up a new offer and negotiate a new salary.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:20
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Kobayashi posted:Eh, it sounds like you're making the same mistake all over again. As others have said, you should really be willing to leave if you get another offer. If you're going to go through all the trouble of find a new position that you'll be happy in, why not just find a new position that you'll be happy in? If I were you, and I really was critical to the five year plan, I'd have an honest conversation about how much that is worth to them. Then, if it doesn't work out, find a new position. Agreed, you don't have to find another job prior to discussing your salary if you never have in the past. However, you do need another job if you're going to demand a higher salary. And as Kalenn pointed out, you absolutely need to be willing to accept it. I wouldn't go so far as to say if you look and you find something better, leave without an opportunity to match, that's really on a case by case basis. If you enjoy your work aside from your compensation, there's something to be said for the devil you know. And if the devil you know will match another offer, it's significantly less risk than jumping ship to a potentially caustic environment. But if your employer makes you hate life then yeah, get something better and don't look back.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:29
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I wouldn't go so far as to say if you look and you find something better, leave without an opportunity to match, that's really on a case by case basis. If you enjoy your work aside from your compensation, there's something to be said for the devil you know. And if the devil you know will match another offer, it's significantly less risk than jumping ship to a potentially caustic environment. OTOH you may find that your current employer starts looking to replace you at the earliest opportunity the moment you accept their counter-offer, or that your "raise" was really an advance against future raises, etc
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Apr 30, 2014 21:47
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Otto Skorzeny posted:OTOH you may find that your current employer starts looking to replace you at the earliest opportunity the moment you accept their counter-offer, or that your "raise" was really an advance against future raises, etc Why the gently caress would you want to work for a place like that? I would either leave, or try to move to a new department if I even thought that was happening.
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Apr 30, 2014 21:48
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You wouldn't want to, which is one of the many reasons that the most common advice about counter-offers is to never accept them and to not bother trying to use an offer as leverage to get a raise with your current employer!
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Apr 30, 2014 21:57
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There have been some good points brought up since I posted. I want to clarify that I am taking my current approach for exactly the reasons Eisenhower outlined. That said, if/when I do get another offer, I don't know whether or not to say "match this" or just "I want a raise," the reason being that I would be happy getting 90-95% of the salaries I'm seeing at these other jobs to stay (maybe after a potential interview that will change). That said, I will absolutely be taking another job if the current place wont play ball. The biggest problem right now is that ~20% of my salary comes in the form of a bonus, which I know better than to count on even though it has yet to fail me. I would achieve a significant increase in my standard of living if my total pay was increased to the current with-bonus level and the bonus was eliminated. As for what Otto Skorzeny has said. If they do want to replace me, I guess they could try. I told them when I was looking in grad school that they were my dead last choice and they waited for me with glee, which makes my lack of negotiation all the more shameful. As for not getting any raises, the difference between where I am now and where I think I should be is 4-5 years of 8% raises, so missing out on a few years of raises (and then moving on if they are being vindictive) isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things.
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Apr 30, 2014 23:39
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Why the gently caress would you tell a potential employer they are your last choice? Do you just not think through the logical consequences of your actions, or what?
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May 1, 2014 02:55
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It sounds to me like the reason you'd be hard to replace is because they are paying peanuts. In my experience, most people overestimate how easy the are to replace if the company is willing to pay the market rate. I also agree with Otto Skorzeny and others in the thread, that getting an offer and using it as leverage to get a raise is a generally a bad idea. If you can't have an honest conversation with your boss about your compensation and your value to the business, then you should go just take the other job.
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May 1, 2014 03:06
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asur posted:It sounds to me like the reason you'd be hard to replace is because they are paying peanuts. In my experience, most people overestimate how easy the are to replace if the company is willing to pay the market rate. In addition to this, you should also be prepared to be told "great, take the other offer, see ya" if you try to leverage an offer at a place that is severely underpaying you. Bosses aren't stupid, we know what the market is and we know where you fit within it.
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May 1, 2014 04:49
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The whole point of my original post was to inform other readers of the consequences of not negotiating (among other things) at the time I took my job. Because of this, I am now not as happy here as I would otherwise be and I have to make some tough decisions that I wouldn't have had to otherwise make. If you are reading this, don't let the last few posts concern you, bosses are not ubermensch, negotiate when you can!
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May 1, 2014 15:11
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I don't understand why you can't have a friendly conversation about your compensation now, before you have another offer. Or, if the politics are so bad that you would be taking a risk by bring it up, I do not understand why you would want to stay there after you find another offer.
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May 1, 2014 15:56
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There's nothing wrong with it, but you'll have significantly better leverage if you have an alternative. In his case is say the best strategy would be to get the other offer, then with the offer in your back pocket go in and negotiate in good faith without bringing it up, unless they prove to be intractable at which point you can make the legitimate treat that you'll leave. You don't even need to ever show them the competing offer, just tell then they'll need to get to a salary of $X. Of course you need to keep the tone professional but that's the key message to get across.
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May 1, 2014 16:38
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Kalenn Istarion posted:There's nothing wrong with it, but you'll have significantly better leverage if you have an alternative. In his case is say the best strategy would be to get the other offer, then with the offer in your back pocket go in and negotiate in good faith without bringing it up, unless they prove to be intractable at which point you can make the legitimate treat that you'll leave. You don't even need to ever show them the competing offer, just tell then they'll need to get to a salary of $X. Of course you need to keep the tone professional but that's the key message to get across. This. The competing offer isn't just a way to bully your way into getting what you want. It also: - Gives you realistic pricing data. Maybe what you're asking for is more than anyone is willing to pay. Or maybe you're asking for something entirely realistic. - Gives you confidence that you should make at least the competing offer. Negotiating confidently for some outcome comes through in everything you say and do, and makes the other party more likely to accept your position. Even without mentioning the offer. - Gives you a legitimate point of leverage if an employer won't agree to your terms. Not only do you think that you're worth more, but someone else does too, and you have no reason to be compelled to stay with the inferior compensation. - Can be presented cooperatively: "I like working here, but you don't pay me what the market is willing to. I'd like to stay here, but I can't pass up $(5,10,15,30),000 every year to continue doing so." And then finally it does give you a legitimate alternative if you can't come to an agreement.
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May 1, 2014 17:01
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My wife is looking for advice. She started a job about three months ago that pays just barely enough for us to live in this city; a staffing agency told her asking for $50k+ was unreasonable, and got her this job at $45k which they told her was great. She has since found out that the previous person who held her position made $70k, and she keeps discovering that her position in this particular business has people asking for around the $70k mark when they interview. Her workload is about to go up by another 25% in the next month or so; she wants to know how to approach her boss with these facts to try and get more compensation. Her boss absolutely loves her and continuously buys her gifts and is going to take the both of us out for dinner; she just really wants to know if she has any chance of trying to renegotiate her salary seeing as she has only been at this job for three months.
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May 1, 2014 17:57
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Your wife has a good negotiating position in that she's being paid under market and the scope of her duties is increasing. It is very reasonable to expect more money.
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May 1, 2014 18:33
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Otto Skorzeny posted:You wouldn't want to, which is one of the many reasons that the most common advice about counter-offers is to never accept them and to not bother trying to use an offer as leverage to get a raise with your current employer! This is urban legend. I'd love to hear someone's personal experience where they accepted a counter-offer from a current employer and had the employer hold it against them. My personal experience is that the counter -- which I accepted -- moved my career into a much better place with that employer. I ended up staying at that particular job for 4 years after they countered, and got regular, significant raises and promotions in each one of those four ears. It's called a market adjustment. Feral Bueller fucked around with this message at 02:03 on May 2, 2014 |
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May 2, 2014 01:56
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I have a friend at a mega major corp considering a counteroffer based on an offer to just ship for another mega major right now. I'll see what happens and report back...
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May 2, 2014 06:23
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Whalley posted:My wife is looking for advice. She started a job about three months ago that pays just barely enough for us to live in this city; a staffing agency told her asking for $50k+ was unreasonable, and got her this job at $45k which they told her was great. She has since found out that the previous person who held her position made $70k, and she keeps discovering that her position in this particular business has people asking for around the $70k mark when they interview. Her workload is about to go up by another 25% in the next month or so; she wants to know how to approach her boss with these facts to try and get more compensation. A staffing agency's job is to try to get someone at the lowest cost. I'd suggest in the future not relying on them for salary advice. To address the current situation: It's quite similar to the one we were discussing just above. Her best option is to go out and find an alternative job, so that she has the appropriate leverage when going in for negotiations. Obviously she should avoid speaking to the agency that got her hired in the first place. If that's not possible then there's still nothing wrong with going to her boss with the facts you've outlined above. Sounds like her boss is pretty happy, so she can hopefully use that rapport to have a positive conversation about it. Keep it friendly and factual. There's also nothing wrong with bringing up some numbers, with external references for amounts, although she should be careful not to mention she knows specifically what her predecessor makes as that could get the latter in trouble depending on the disclosure terms in their employment contracts. Focus instead on the external references as it sounds like she'll have plenty. In going to guess from your description that you're both fairly young and early in your careers. Out of an abundance of caution, she should make sure she's past whatever probationary period her employer has as that will mitigate the risk they try to let her go without notice if they decide to be lovely about it.
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May 2, 2014 09:40
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Sarcasmatron posted:My personal experience is that the counter -- which I accepted -- moved my career into a much better place with that employer. I ended up staying at that particular job for 4 years after they countered, and got regular, significant raises and promotions in each one of those four ears. My personal experience is that I got a competing offer, demanded a match from my present employer on the basis of two facts: 1) I can make that much money. 2) If I leave to make that much money, they'll lose all the income they get from billing my time. I got $5k more than the competing offer.
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May 2, 2014 16:43
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:My personal experience is that I got a competing offer, demanded a match from my present employer on the basis of two facts: Exactly. "Don't give your current job the opportunity to counter, because they'll hold it against you" is a bugbear, unless you're working in retail or food service. It's far more expensive for a company to go through the process of recruiting, hiring, and training an unknown quantity to replace you. Treating it as what it is -- a market adjustment -- is relatively painless, once the emotional component is removed.
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May 2, 2014 16:55
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It's not inherently a bad move to accept a counter from your current employer, but it will be very situational and will depend a lot on your role and relationships where you're at. You also have to play it very diplomatically for it to go over well. If you're essential and irreplaceable and have grown the value you provide over time you'll be in a better position than someone entry level and relatively replaceable. Keep in mind though if you've got reasons for leavings other than just money, a pay raise isn't likely going to fix those other issues.
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May 2, 2014 17:03
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Guinness posted:Keep in mind though if you've got reasons for leavings other than just money, a pay raise isn't likely going to fix those other issues. If you've got reasons other than just money, there's no need to discuss a counter-offer.
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May 2, 2014 17:09
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The question of this post is "should I even try to negotiate?" For background. I'm currently unemployed, but I was on a special list with a big company; Fortune 50. Being on that special list got me special treatment as far as finding a job went. They went ahead and found me a job with them, and it's a pretty desirable position; about one to two thousand people in the world do this work among all the companies in this industry, comes with security clearance, and internal company proprietary clearance. Which means I won't be allowed to talk about it to anyone outside of work, and will be excluded from talking about it with certain people inside of work. So pretty specialized and fancy, I guess. The offer came in today and it was several thousand less than I would have liked for this kind of work. Because of that I'd like to counter, but not having any existing job should I even try to negotiate a better offer? I mean, they're giving me the standard rate for anyone on this special list and completely ignoring my work history. Not only are they ignoring my work history I hold an invention with this company and they're ignoring that special contribution. They've taken my four years of work history and my invention for them and threw it out the window to level me with fresh out of college B.S. individuals who managed to get on this list I mentioned. If you're curious, the reason I'm unemployed is because I was getting a masters and decided that I was getting the wrong masters at the wrong college. Because of that I withdrew from what I was studying and started looking for work. Since I was on this special list I felt comfortable withdrawing since even if I couldn't find a job on my own I was going to be offered a job through this program. Sadly after seven interviews with several companies outside of the industry I have existing experience in I wasn't offered a single position. Which leads me to believe I'm terrible at interviewing. I have read this article -- http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ -- and believe I should try to do something since these couple thousand dollars now can turn into $100,000 over my career. Having grown up poor I'd prefer to have a financially successful life. What do you guys here think? Earth fucked around with this message at 05:10 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 05:02
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Earth posted:The question of this post is "should I even try to negotiate?" Never not negotiate. Particularly at a Fortune 50 company you can expect that try will have left some room to negotiate, as their HR people will have clear and specific procedures for how to negotiate offers. There's no reason at all that you can't go back and state your position with reference to your experience. It's going to be tough for you to walk away given your limited alternatives, but if you're rare enough to be on a list like that there's probably other companies that would find whatever you do valuable. Worst you'll get is a polite no to the increased pay, highly unlikely they would pull the offer. If you're special enough that they keep you on a reserved list and give you a job whenever you're special enough to not get tossed out the door. Key is to see if you can get a reference somewhere for what you think you should be paid, even if it's just an estimate of annual raises applied to the salary offer they have you run over 4 years to account for your experience. Be factual, be firm, and be confident in your position. If you go in with tone and body / written language that says you're unsure they'll smell it and you won't get what you want. Re: the interviewing thing, interviews are tough and they take practice. While it can be disheartening to get shot down a few times the fact that you're getting interviews means you have skills that people are interested in. Perhaps get a family member or friend / mentor to do some practice interviews with you. Sounds like you'll have a hard time having them ask you job specific sorts of questions but you can get a feel for how interviews go and get more confidence selling yourself. Not sure if you've looked but there are a couple good threads on here about interviewing. I could repeat most of the tips here but it's already well-covered so will leave you to go look.
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May 13, 2014 08:57
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When do I negotiate? The amount was verbally said, but the paperwork of the offer hasn't shown up yet. There was an email requesting information for putting the offer together, do I negotiate in that or do I wait for the official offer? Also, I know interviewing is hard. Several of the interviews they brought up money, which I found distasteful considering it was the first interview. Then another interview I was asked the hardest question I ever faced. "Why should we hire you over other people?" I mean I've been nonverbally taught in my years of experience to never bring others down so I was dumbstruck with how to respond to that. After thinking about it for a month I now have the answer, but man if there was ever a question I wasn't prepared for.
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May 13, 2014 14:14
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Earth posted:When do I negotiate? The amount was verbally said, but the paperwork of the offer hasn't shown up yet. There was an email requesting information for putting the offer together, do I negotiate in that or do I wait for the official offer? You want to discuss your counter offer before they offer something in writing. Discussing money during the first interview is appropriate and makes a great deal of sense. You are trading your time for the company's money, and the company is banking on making more from your time than they're paying you. If what they want to pay for your time is too low, or what you want to be paid for your time is too high, then it's best for you both to figure that out right away and go look at other opportunities. Likewise, they aren't bringing you down, they want you to identify what unique qualities you bring to the table. Maybe you're just like everyone else interviewing for that position and utterly replaceable by any of the other candidates. But if you're not, this is an opportunity to describe what unique values you offer that other candidates don't.
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May 13, 2014 14:27
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Usually they will review the offer verbally before sending out the paperwork. That's the best time to counter. Play nice but firm with the recruiter -- they're doing the dirty work with the negotiations, but you're probably never going to speak to them again, unless you need them to fill a position. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twJbXSpTVFA - followed his directions, almost to the word on a negotiation where they were absolutely firm on the salary. Three days later, they came back with a 10K bump. I've used it three times since then, has worked all three times. Be cheerful in the discussion: you're nervous and you risk sounding grumpy and defensive. Smile when you're talking, even if it's on the phone. Good luck!
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May 13, 2014 14:30
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Sarcasmatron posted:Smile when you're talking, even if it's on the phone. Further to that, do not take or make business calls unless you're fully dressed, with shoes on.
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May 13, 2014 15:33
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No man, do the opposite. Take all your business calls completely nude.
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May 13, 2014 15:56
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Thanks for the advice guys. I just sent an email to request a bump of $3,600 which is $1,000 above what I valued myself at before the amount was even said. The amount said was $2,600 less than I wanted, so I'll be taking it no matter what because the job is cool. That is as long as they don't rescind the offer since I asked for more, which I am nervous about. I figured I watch enough Pawn Stars to realize that in negotiations I'm always supposed to start at higher than what I actually want. Hopefully that was the correct thing to do... The reality is that I fall into kalzumeus' category of engineers being complete poo poo at negotiating. And that Youtube guy was even more correct about Americans being terrible at this. I was just writing a stupid email to ask for more money because I have more experience and value than the next guy on the list and I'm still nervous as fuckall. poo poo that was terrifying. Made even worse by the fact that I've never negotiated for any job I've held before. One mistake I think I made is that I laid out all justification for why I should get more right away instead of doling it out when he comes back and says that it's a firm offer. I now have nothing left in my basket to pull out and say, "Well look at this, you didn't consider this did you!" Thanks again, BFC. But if it gets rescinded then gently caress you all to hell.
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May 13, 2014 16:04
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You want to discuss your counter offer before they offer something in writing. Most of this is right but it shouldn't be the interviewee that brings up money in the first interview. If a candidate started asking me about what they were going to get paid before we or they had decided whether they were appropriate for the job, I would know immediately that they weren't. If the company brings it up you should have a smart answer to the question "what did you get paid at your last job" or "what are your salary expectations". Generally it's better for your answer to put it back to the company to make the offer, although if they push you on it you should be prepared to provide a high but fair number that you'd be willing to accept and leaves a bit of room to be negotiated down.
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May 13, 2014 17:44
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Yeah, it was first interview which was slated to last 30 min and they brought up expected salary. My response was to say what I expected from my current environment which was $XX,XXX to $XX,XXX. I guess what I should have said was whether them asking for an expected salary was them offering me a job. A few of the interviews I tried to deflect the question to say something like, "it would depend on your expectations of me" to get them to outline what the job would entail day in day out. At this stage I'm glad to not be working for 5 of the 7 companies I've interviewed with because their unprofessionalism was out of this world as far as getting back to an individual in a timely manner and asking really out of place questions during the first interview.
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May 13, 2014 18:39
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Don't give a range. Just your high number. They know they can at least get you to the bottom number and maybe lower.
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May 13, 2014 18:48
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spwrozek posted:Don't give a range. Just your high number. They know they can at least get you to the bottom number and maybe lower. That always makes me wonder about the reverse. When an employer gives me a range for the position (before an offer, during the interview stage), can I expect to be able to negotiate to the top of that range, or are they going to try to stick with the low-to-mid part of the range?
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May 13, 2014 18:53
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Xandu posted:That always makes me wonder about the reverse. When an employer gives me a range for the position (before an offer, during the interview stage), can I expect to be able to negotiate to the top of that range, or are they going to try to stick with the low-to-mid part of the range? They're going to want you near the bottom, you're going to want to get to the top, the actual salary is going to be somewhere in the middle. Whether it's middle-high or middle-low depends on your negotiating skills.
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May 13, 2014 18:55
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Xandu posted:That always makes me wonder about the reverse. When an employer gives me a range for the position (before an offer, during the interview stage), can I expect to be able to negotiate to the top of that range, or are they going to try to stick with the low-to-mid part of the range? When they give a range they're trying to box you between two numbers that they're happy paying either one of. If you're ignorant but confident, they can offer you the high end of the range and you'll think you did really well, because they defined the scale and then put you at the top of it! If you're ignorant and self-conscious, you may accept something near the bottom of the range. If they're trying to compete on salary, they won't give a range. They'll make a low bid and hope to anchor the negotiations there and will hope you don't pull it higher. Also Kalenn's right as usual in this thread, do not eagerly bring up a salary in a first interview. If I got through an entire first round interview, and I felt that the interview was going well (I liked them and they liked me), and I was serious about potentially accepting the job, and we had not previously discussed salary, and they asked me if I had any questions, I would ask what kind of compensation they offer for the position. Dwight Eisenhower fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:19
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Maybe where I work is some crazy place not hellbent on screwing employees, but I've never once heard of someone at my company trying to get someone to accept a salary at the lowest possible number. HR gives the salary range for the job title, finance approves the salary expenditure for the cost center budget, and then we go try to hire the best employee we can. If the salary range is 95K to 110K and you want 100K we're not going to try to beat you down to 95K to save 5,000 bucks a year. Not worth anyone's time. It costs us so much more to find a qualified, good employee that 5K is a literal drop in the bucket. For the company I work for the salary range is more of an exercise in setting realistic expectations. We hire quite a few programmers and salaries have skyrocketed lately. If you're asking for 130K and our budgeted range is 100 to 115K obviously it's not going to work out. Our hiring managers do have some discretion though, if they need another 5K they can probably get it, also if they feel like a candidate isn't worth their asking price they can choose to go less than the budgeted max for the position. Xandu posted:That always makes me wonder about the reverse. When an employer gives me a range for the position (before an offer, during the interview stage), can I expect to be able to negotiate to the top of that range, or are they going to try to stick with the low-to-mid part of the range? In my experience this depends on what you're bringing to the table. The high part of the range is reserved for people that have earned that level of compensation, or can prove they're bringing something special to the table. Prove you're worth it an you can probably have it. If not, shoot for as much as you can with a salary review after 6 to 12 months to try to get you up towards the higher end of the range after you've proven yourself.
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May 13, 2014 19:33
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For an update. My "handler" (don't know what else to call the person who's doing the job offering) got back to me and told me that they are going to go ahead and do the original offer paperwork, and then I go for the counter. From that stage it enters the counter process. Hooray bureaucracy! They specifically want to do it this way because it will be quicker. If it were to go the other way then it could take longer. So I'm going to take that as a good sign that they want to quickly take care of this stuff. Tell me if you guys think that this bodes well or not well. Thanks again for your help!
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May 14, 2014 04:15
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Sounds fine and really pretty normal. Maybe a bit weird since you already told them what you want but that didn't scare them off so I wouldn't worry too much.
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May 14, 2014 04:26
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Earth posted:For an update. My "handler" (don't know what else to call the person who's doing the job offering) got back to me and told me that they are going to go ahead and do the original offer paperwork, and then I go for the counter. From that stage it enters the counter process. Hooray bureaucracy! They specifically want to do it this way because it will be quicker. If it were to go the other way then it could take longer. So I'm going to take that as a good sign that they want to quickly take care of this stuff. Doesn't sound crazy for a company that is probably doing defense contracting or something like that based on your vague description. They've not said no, just to roll with how they have to do it. Remember when you're countering formally to include any soft stuff like vacation and benefits vesting etc as they will bake that into your total comp estimate.
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May 14, 2014 04:32
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